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What do you guys think of throwing in 2 Natural Orders and a Progenitus? For those of us already running a Dryad Arbor for GSZ it may fit in there fine as opposed to DD combo for the oops I win factor. Unfortunately it makes us dig for our SDT fast before we really want to play Bob so we don't kill ourselves but I think the win factor may be worth testing.
natural order progenitus has been dismissed by most players of the rock simply because we do not have the option to brainstorm a progenitus away if it is in starting hand, which would make such a hand allmost an automulligan if you do not want to thoughtseize yourself, and that would suck quite a bit, so i think i will answer this in the name of a lot of rock-players with: "no, thanks"
but i have to admit natural order into progenitus is a strong play, but is not suited for this deck IMO
Yeah, unfortunately for us, the Soul of the World really prefers to be played next to Brainstorm and Vendilion Clique. Also, since an aggressive NO PRO start usually revolves around a turn 3 Natural Order (with either Arbor or Hierarch being sacked), it's really nice to have FOW and Daze to protect the spell and mitigate against Edict effects. Without blue it's just not strong enough.
Murph, give the Depths combo a try if you haven't already. It's cheap enough to get the extra cards if you don't own them yet (only need 2 Dark Depths!), and it's close to having a Progenitus combo. It would be nice to have a few folks giving it a proper gauntlet run to discuss results and compare notes.
ok fair enough about Prog being better suited as more solid in a blue deck and nope not worried about cost of depths and stuff. I actually had playtested that alot with living wish to give me the oops factor about 7 months ago with pretty mild results unfortunately. It may have been my metagame at the time or it just wasn't as evolved as it can be now with MM but I wasn't loving it. Don't get me wrong it can be a powerhouse and Hexmage is incredible in general with JTMS running rampant. But yes I do admit I did not think about the starting hand factor, I was focused soley on the drawing with Bob so yeah brainstorm would be needed for that. If we could find snother outlet for throwing from the hand it would be different but alas Wild Mongrel is just bested by 'Goyf and Knight. My issue with DD was the reliance on KotR and Hexmage to pull the combo together since yes, we do only run 1 Depths to stop from drawing too many but we ONLY run one so drawing it is difficult. Thats where the Wishes come in but I actually found myself never wishing for Depths. If I had the oppurtunity to do so it seemed like win more to me. I may be totally off on this all but its just what I have seen and like I said MM being decked now may completely change the game how we play it.
Hi fellow Junk players,
I have been running variations of junk for about 7 months now. I have run traditional Junk with Pernicious Deed MD and Elspeth variants, inquisitions MD and Pridemage too. I have also tried the GSZ package with tutorable cards like Teeg or Arbor. My current decklist is such...
Main deck (60 cards)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mox Diamond
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Null Rod
2 Perish
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Runed Halo
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
I went to GP providence and Ran 4-4. Starting off 4-0 Beating Sforge Folk /Hypergenesis/Dragon Stompy/Enchantress, Losing to Body doubling Hulk/NO RUG/ Folk/ Affinity. I have always felt that Junk is a deck with a lot of decisions to make and no clear path to win. And there is nothing wrong with it being that way. The name The Rock is implying its something you can lean your back upon and have an answer in your deck somewhere. I felt that in most games I did not present a clock but played more control. The lack of a clock is something I have always felt Junk lacked on.
Over the last two weeks I have intrigued by Junk Depths. There was a lot of the deck I liked and a lot I was not sold on. The missteps seemed like a card just to protect your combo, the lack of hymn/deed/vindicate seemed like you lost so much disruption. The lose of top seemed to disrupt my hand molding. So two nights ago my friend who plays reanimator and storm sat down and I took my GSZ Junk and changed to Dark Depths from Jesse in last SCG open, here's what I found out.
1. The Lose of Hymn/ Vindicate is much less worse then I imagined. Yes hymn is strong early but late it feels so dead. Vindicate does hit a lot of things such as lands and enchantments/ lands/ artifacts/Planeswalkers, but Loam lock stops them dead/ Hexmage takes care of Walkers, and MOST enchantments and artifacts don't matter next to your 20/20 flyer.
2. Misstep is GOD. I didn't expect to love this card as much as it did, nor did I expect to see much use. Just testing against NO RUG and Reanimator it shined, stopping things like Entomb, Careful Study, Reanimate, Hierarch, lavamancer, Bstorm, and more. It was so useful outside of protecting the combo.
3. Living Wish!!!!! Maybe it's just my nostalgia kicking in from the standard days of Psychatog and using a wish sideboard but I LOVE IT. Answers in the sideboard game 1 is amazing. Search for either of your combo pieces or find key cards to stop your opponent in the right circumstance was great. I was unhappy about losing GSZ till I actually tested with it. Living wish is a house for this variation of Junk.
4. The best part is the deck still feels like Junk! You can still win the old fashion way through disruption and beats with fatties. Gaining card advantage through BoB locking them with Wastes, land tricks with Knight. It still has the Best Black Green and Multicolored creatures in legacy. The best removal spell StpS. The best land D! And now with Living wish you have a more extensive tutor list then GSZ. And best of all Junk has gained an unfair Clock. DD is so fun to play and powerful.
I will be playtesting with this list over the next couple of weeks. If anyone has any feedback let us know. I may cut 1 land I felt mana flooded but not sure what yet. Keep up the GWB beats!
Is this thread only discussing G/B/w versions these days, or is G/B still open for discussion? Historically, "The Rock and his Millions" was a G/B Midrange Aggro deck with Deranged Hermit and other green and black goodies...
Anyway, if Junk and similar is the normal consensus, I appologize for gumming up this thread. Anyway, I give you...
G/B NO/VV
Natural Order w/ Veggies
Another Rock Variant
// Lands (22)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Bayou
4 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
// Creatures (22)
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ROE] Vengevine
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [CFX] Progenitus
// Spells (16)
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [M10] Acidic Slime
SB: 1 [US] Elvish Lyrist
SB: 1 [ON] Elvish Scrapper
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
I posted the deck in New and Developmental, but the thing only has like 500 views, and I know this thread generates lots and lots of discussions. Since this technically is a Rock deck, I hope it's okay that I post it in here too.
Here's the link to the N&D thread should I get kicked outta here: G/B Natural Order w/ Veggies (NOVV)
Anyway, this is one of the funnest midrange aggro decks I've ever played, it's fairly resilient, and it does broken shit.
The deck is your typical G/B Midrange beats deck, with a twist.
The manabase is stable in G/B, a fairly standard manabase. Some Bayou's, some basics, a playset of Wastelands, and a miser Dryad Arbor since I'm running Natural Order.
I sport a full 8 mana dorks, since the deck loves to see one on turn 1. Ramping into Buried Alive, Natural Order, hardcast Vengevines, and hardcast Shriekmaw's is good stuff.
The deck of course sports Tarmogoyf as part of its beats package. Vengevine is absolutely brutal; 4/3 Haste is still pretty good in this format, especially when I'm clearing blockers with Shriekmaw's.
The deck has 8 must answer bombs that usually result in game wins if they are not dealt with.
Buried Alive for 3 Vengevines is brutal, especially if resolved on turn 2. Not many decks can handle three 4/3 guys attacking on turn 3. Even on turn 4+, dropping three Vengevines into play is still really good. Dropping two Tarmgoyf's to trigger the three Vengevines is pretty sick.
The deck is versatile though, and can also grab various Genesis piles depending on the situation. Tutoring for recurring removal via Shriekmaw is really good sometimes, as are recurring Tarmogoyf's. Genesis also generates card advantage, since I still get a drawstep, which is great for winning attrition wars. Genesis also opens the deck up to a small creature toolbox in the sideboard.
Natural Order is usually an I-win once it resolves. So many decks in the format right now cannot handle a 10/10 Protection from Everything. This deck is easily capable of ramping up to 2GG with a green creature on the board, making Natural Order a shoe-in.
To make sure my bombs resolve, I'm packing the standard 4/4 Thoughtseize/Hymn to Tourach discard package. Since I'm a fairly aggressive aggro deck and I'm light on removal (maindeck), Thougtseize is the best 1cc discard option. Hymn to Tourach is great at shredding hands, providing card advantage while doing so.
The deck is chock full of synergy. The mana dorks aren't just there for mana ramping. They assist in triggering Vengevines, and they give me bodies for Natural Order. Shriekmaw is a removal spell, but since it's a creature, evoking it can trigger Vengevines. Of course, the synergy with Genesis is there too, making Shriekmaw a fantastic removal choice for this deck.
As a midrange aggro deck, the deck has several means of generating card advantage. Aside from the quality increase of the higher cc spells; Hymn is CA, hardcast Shriekmaw is CA, Buried Alive for Vengevine x3 is CA, and Genesis recursion is CA.
The 4/3 Deed/Pulse removal package in the sideboard allows the deck to deal with swarms, problematic non-creature permanents, black/artifact creatures, so on and so forth. I usually bring in Deed for Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, and Affinity. I usually bring in Pulse against lighter threat density matchups like Junk and CounterTop.
Cabal Therapy gives me additional discard to fight combo decks (and certain control decks). The creature toolbox is still a work in progress, but I'm pretty happy with it so far.
It looks really cool, I want to know if you have a plan against the SFM Batterskull being all over the place. I could definately see myself bringing this list to my local meta at some point :p
It looks very nice and I have proxed the list and playtested it a bit. Its very nice. But theres one thing I have found out... It actually has one weak point, not preboard but postboard.
Who doesnt have graveyardhate for Dredge in the Sideboard? And graveyardhate is very useful against this kind of deck. So Id suggest playing a bit less graveyard based strategie. Thats what I would play, but beside this its a great deck :)
True, no graveyard hate in his list but Shreikmaw, Deed, Arbor+Waste, and Therapy can accomplish the goal.Quote:
Who doesnt have graveyardhate for Dredge in the Sideboard?
My list can totally ignore graveyard hate most of the time. The only spell in my deck that is nullified by a turn 1 Crypt/Relic is Buried Alive. I laugh in the games where my opponents put multiple Crypts/Relics into play during the early game, only to get blown out by Natural Order.Quote:
Who doesnt have graveyardhate for Dredge in the Sideboard? And graveyardhate is very useful against this kind of deck. So Id suggest playing a bit less graveyard based strategie. Thats what I would play, but beside this its a great deck :)
Graveyard hate doesn't stop Vengevines from being hardcast, and Goyf's easily grow back to size.
Graveyard hate obviously affects me; a 1cc Meddling Mage naming Buried Alive* is very good for them. It can RFG midgame hardcasted Vengevines that are countered/destroyed, and it can shrink my Goyfs.
However, graveyard hate doesn't wreck me either. This deck is fairly resilient to graveyard hate.
Fact is, I'm going to be susceptible to graveyard hate to some degree because Buried Alive for Vengevines and/or Genesis uses the graveyard. I'm fine with that though, because those spells are extremely powerful. Risk vs reward, basically.
Like someone else already mentioned, my discard can get rid of the opponent's graveyard hate preemptively, and Pernicious Deed can also sweep them away.
*Since Buried Alive says "up to 3 creatures," if my opponent does land an early Crypt/Relic and I do draw a Buried Alive, I'll usually bait it out by grabbing a single Vengevine with the Buried Alive. If my opponent doesn't stick an early Crypt/Relic, but I know he runs them (usually in game 3), I'll usually Buried Alive for two Vengevines or a Genesis pile. This leaves me with targets for additional Buried Alive's later.
The list looks interesting. More of a combo list, but still very cool looking. Only downside to Shriekmaw is that it doesn't kill Dark Confidant :(
Overall, I might proxy it up to have this in addition to regular Rock.
-Matt
Yes, the list is very combo oriented. Sometimes the deck just wins out of nowhere. I love it. The deck is incredibly fun to play.Quote:
The list looks interesting. More of a combo list, but still very cool looking. Only downside to Shriekmaw is that it doesn't kill Dark Confidant :(
Overall, I might proxy it up to have this in addition to regular Rock.
-Matt
Not having an answer to Dark Confidant maindeck is definitely a downside to Shriekmaw, but alot of times I can simply ignore the Dark Confidant and just smack my opponent for 12 with Vengevines or 10 with Progenitus.
Postboard, Deed/Pulse can answer Confidant.
Well, Shriekmaw can kill SFM before it can put Batterskull into play. Or I can simply ignore SFM -> Batterskull altogether. Cheating a Batterskull into play is alot less broken than cheating 3 Vengevines or a Progenitus into play, if you ask me.Quote:
It looks really cool, I want to know if you have a plan against the SFM Batterskull being all over the place. I could definately see myself bringing this list to my local meta at some point :p
I am considering maindecking a singleton Viridian Zealot, though. Not sure what I'd want to cut, but the option is there.
EDIT: My updated sideboard:
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
I just played against a U/W Blade Control deck and 2-0'd him. In game 1, Thougtseize cleared the way for an early Buried Alive. He had heavy Mishra's Factory, but I drew all 4 Wasteland's. It took me a while to get two creatures to trigger the Vengevines, and he countered both once I did, but triple Vengevines sealed the game up. In game two, my sideboard plan was:
-4 Natural Order
-1 Progenitus
-1 Shriekmaw
+3 Pernicious Deed
+3 Maelstrom Pulse
The 3/3/3 split of Maw/Deed/Pulse was overwhelming. Pulse took out an Elspeth, an early Deed blew up an Elspeth token and a Mishra's Factory, and a second Deed sat on the table for good measure. Turn 1 Thoughtseize stripped a Relic, proceeded by double Hymn destroying his hand. He landed a second Relic, but it didn't do anything for him. I had a Hierarch and a hardcast Vengevine on the board smacking him for 5. He eventually cracked the Relic to try and find an answer, and I proceed to topdeck a Buried Alive for Genesis/Vengevine/Tarmogoyf to seal it. He did end up hitting one of the Vengevines with a Swords, but it didn't matter.
That sideboard plan was amazing against U/W Blade Control, and I'm assuming it would be just as good against the SFM decks with more aggro.
EDIT:
After more playtesting, I've made some more sideboard changes.
Scavenging Ooze is overkill. I already have a fantastic Dredge matchup. Evoking Shriekmaw blows up Bridges, Wasteland can screw them over, and Vengevines/Progenitus can race them. Postboard, the Deeds are absolutely brutal.
Against Aggro Loam, I'm thinking I shouldn't really need to worry about dealing with their graveyard. They tend to have trouble dealing with a resolved Progenitus, and my discard does a great job of clearing away Burning Wish/Perish. Even recurring Vengevines are pretty hard for them to deal with, and Genesis -> Shriekmaw/Viridian Zealot is a beating too. I don't think I need the Scavenging Ooze's here.
I've had a few game losses to Reanimator so far, but that was with earlier versions of the deck. I think my matchup against Reanimator should be signicantly better now, especially postboard with more discard. I'm sure the Scavenging Ooze's would be awesome against them, but I'm not sure I really want to sideboard a card that's only really needed for 1 matchup.
I've been absolutely loving the Viridian Zealot though. It's tutorable recurrable artifact/enchantment removal (since it sac's itself), it triggers Vengevines, and it's a body for Natural Order. I couldn't ask for much more. I definitely want more than 1 in the sideboard.
Against Control decks bringing in graveyard hate, I'm thinking a 1-of Gigapede could be pretty good. Gives me something to grab with Buried Alive if the Veggies/Genesis get dealt with, and the Shroud is pretty good too. It also gives me an outlet for sacrificing Progenitus, although I usually board out my NO/Pro package vs Control...
Maybe I should maindeck 1 Gigapede? Hmm... maybe.
Anyway, the new sideboard:
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 [DS] Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede
I'm trying to tinker with Junk Depths a bit, using the most recent SCG list.
He ran 25 lands, but I think it should be okay to go down to 24, considering there is 3 mox diamonds.
I want to add a SDT in the spare slot, and squeeze in a second somewhere. The problem is, do I want to cut a card (not sure which if I do), or just run 61 cards...
i think running 61 cards is fine, it does allmost nothing to your % of drawing the wanted cards, and gives you just a bit more of flexibility IMO
i am tinkering with a junk dephts build as well right now, but i will try a non-mox-build, and non-misstep-build, because i want to keep the hymns, and in the slots of the moxen, i have the divining tops and adictional targeted discard / targeted removal (smother)
i am still testing but right now i have not got a lot of time, but as of now i really like the dephts, because its the "oh shit, if i dont do something i lose"-button from sight of the opponent
i really miss vindicate though
PS: volraths stronghold was extremely good so far in testings getting back a shriekmaw, hexmage, quasali, is extremely nice, i would allways keep one MD
I think Stronghold is especially good in that deck with recurring Shirekmaws/Hexmages. Plus, it's not terrible on the manabase considering Loam and Urborg, TOY.
At the moment, personally, Legacy is really weird for me. Esoteric combo seems to be popping up everywhere (Flashless Hulk, Hive Mind, etc.) and the recent kings of Legacy (Stoneblade) are already falling out of favour. It seems like Legacy is fluxing faster than it has been before, and is changing more and more, week to week.
-Matt
Well, the most recent SCG list saw NO hive minds in the top 16, despite having 3 top 8's the week before. Then again, with the newer combo decks, it's possible for Junk depths to race them, as they don't consistently go off turn 2 or 3 like storm.
I raced a Hivemind deck that way, turn 3 Marit Lage vs his turn 3 SnT Emrakul, I won the dice roll so he had to chump with Emmy :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Basaka
Now I will see if I can put Hexmage+Depths in sideboard and board in against decks with Jace to have a cheap answer(s). Since the depths can just be fetched with Knight I will try just 3 Hexmage and 1 Depths.
Also if Hivemind is now on the way out again, what will be the next big thing? Is it back to slow SFM decks, is it NO RUG, Team America again or what could it be ? :p
In my mind, a deck like Team America with SSS (Spellstutter Sprite), Cliques, and Goyfs along with Stifles would be super sick. against Hive Mind.
-Matt
That's because each weekend when you watch a SCG Legacy open it will vary for the most part due to the region. Legacy is still a smaller format in terms of players so each region has it's on niche decks and players. Though it's growing nicely in the last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I've been re-brewing my Junk list for the last few months. Been working on a more functional brew. I am glad the Stronghold has seen a lot more play. I was the first to advocate for it in place of the canopy spot in the more traditional builds. Right now I am working on a more verstile land base. I liked the idea of having my lands impact the board more, and using LftL to gain more card advantage and recycle effects off my lands. It's not perfect but it's adapting more to a changing meta easier. I've got another 2 weeks of testing but I'll post my list soon.