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Hard luck, kkkant. You only have one Intuition (for Foresight usually) and the one time you use it you end up on the losing end of such a combination of cards. I'd say you made the correct play because it seems you could protect your Intuition from one counter. If you made that play every time you had Intuition in hand and could win with SnT next turn you'd definitely have positive EV. So don't get too down! Good finish!
Hello everyone.
I've been watching some videos online and came across a primer for this deck. I am really digging it. I don't have any Legacy deck at all and recently learned that my LGS is starting to hold Legacy tournaments once a week. I figure this might be a good time to dive in and am thinking this deck might be the one for me.
I was wondering if anyone had any advice or suggestions about the core package. I can't really afford FoWs right now, but it seems that I can replace them maybe with something else for the time being. Really, the absolute must have cards seem to be 4 Show and Tell, 4 Omniscience, 3-4 Cunning Wish and at least 1 Emrakul. So if these are the essentials, I can work my way up to the more expensive stuff over time, and I at least have something to play. Am I correct in this analysis?
Eventually, this is what I want my deck to look like. I would love some criticism.
Lands
City of Traitors x3
Flooded Strand x3
Polluted Delta x2
Misty Rainforest x2
Boseiju, Who Shelters All x1
Island x8
Creatures
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn x2
Spells
Show and Tell x4
Omniscience x4
Cunning Wish x4
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
Preordain x4
Force of Will x4
Gitaxian Probe x4
Dig Through Time x3
Pact of Negation x2
Enter the Infinite x1
Lim-Dul's Vault x1
Sideboard
Dig Through Time x1
Boseiju, Who Shelters All x1
Grafdigger's Cage x2
Wipe Away x1
Flusterstorm x1
Release the Ants x1
Firemind's Foresight x1
Slaughter Pact x1
Intuition x1
Eladamri's Call x1
Surgical Extraction x1
Rushing River x1
Impulse x1
Trickbind x1
I've read through most of this thread for ideas. Seems pretty self explanatory. The single EtI is just as a back up for the Emrakuls. In case they get stuck at the bottom of the deck, I have an alternate card to clash with for RtA. LDV seems really useful. I know there's some disagreement between that and Impulse, but here's the way I look at it. Ultimately, we have to dig through the deck to find our combo. SaT, Omniscience, CW for RtA, that's the combo. Or SaT Emrakul, or SaT, Omniscience, Emrakul. With RtA, we have to set up our library for a high mana card for clashing. DTT let's us dig really deep, but we can't stack the deck. Brainstorm let's us dig and put back. Preordain let's us take a look, and we can draw a card, allowing us to set up things if Emrakul is in the top 2. Ponder let's us look as well, and also reshuffle if needed, then draw. LDV just let's us straight up filter to the bottom until we find what we need, then stack our next 5 cards. So we dig through until we find Emrakul or EtI (for those that run it), put it on top, CW for RtA and we're off to the races. It seems a really useful digging tool. After resolving FF, I'd grab this as the two mana card over Impulse, personally.
Anyway, if anyone has suggestions on card layout for my proposed deck, please let me know. I'd prefer to get the right cards the first time instead of the wrong ones.
The disagreement about LDV vs Impulse is real. However, there should be no disagreement in the fact that impulse is stricly better than Lim-Dûl's Vault in a monoblue list. The deck already has a decently unfair amount of cards you can only play under very specific circumstances (DTT's, Omniscience, Emrakul, C.Wishes most in most matches and 2-3x sideboard slots).Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy
Why would it be worth, to add further variance and unstability to the deck by adding a 2CMC vampiric tutor? And as good as it can get, a tutor that is unplayable unless you already dropped the combo (so you pretty much won anyways)!
Trust me, you'd better run impulse for consistency or spare money to buy 'dem Seas.
However, I ask you to go back 2-3 pages and read my posts about the deck. At this very specific point of my thought process and testing, I (and many with me) am not totally convinced anymore of the supreme necessity of the RtA finisher. You can just attack with Emrakul 99,9% of the time, and this pretty much invalidates your necessity to have an offcolor LDV in a blue list.
Well I figured I'd be playing LDV after Omniscience hit the table anyway, so the black mana in the cost wouldn't be an issue. By looks alone, it seems strong. Again, haven't tested it since I don't have the deck. However, it seems that I can dig right to the bottom of my deck, if need be, to find what I need and not mill myself (since the cards go to the bottom of the library). Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain and DTT all dig as well, but DTT doesn't allow cards to be put back on top, and the other 3 don't dig that far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave
But you make a good point-unless Omniscience is in play via SaT, its a dead card. Either way, both are really inexpensive, so I can pick up both, test them and see how well they work.
As for RtA vs Emrakul, if you're in the clear to combo off, Emrakul is pretty much a winner, yes. However, there are times when an opponent will have over 15 life and you can't finish them in 1 turn. Once the Annihilator 6 hits, its pretty much game over from there, but its not always a 100% win. Against decks like Storm or some other crazy, one turn combo, that turn could be the difference between a win and loss. RtA, if you combo off with that, that's a win that turn.
Not to mention, if you're just going to forgo the RtA finish, why have Omniscience at all? Just SaT Emrakul in and do it that way.
RtA and Emrakul are alternate finishers. I guess that's why the deck is so good. You can win with one or the other. What if an opponent has Meddling Mage naming Emrakul? Without RtA, that's a loss. You can counter it, but there's probably going to be more than 1. You can CW for Wipe Away, but since Mage would only be going back to our opponent's hand, it'll just get cast again. If you counter it, you could wish for Surgical Extraction and exile all of them, I guess, but that leaves you open to other threats that Extraction won't be able to answer.
Either way, I do want to stick to a mono blue list. Maybe some day I can expand into something else, but Underground Seas, Volcanic Islands and company...outta my price range. Even FoW is stretching it, but I can make 100 or so bucks per copy work. 250-300 for one land...doesn't work right now. Plus, with FoW, while its pretty important for T0 countering, I can at least replace it with Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm or something to tide me over. Without dual lands, splashing a color isn't going to work out to well. I could just fetch basics, but that would slow me down way too much.
Really, read last like 20 pages of the thread - there are answers to your questions spreaded all around, and many tips and tricks about deck machanics you just haven't noticed yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy
For example, remember that strong winning position (in vacuum, though, not against hatebears or Miracles) is three cards in hand - SnT+Omni+third business spell, ideally Wish (with weak winning position being SnT+Emrakul). LDV, the card, which I strongly protect as a key part of FF trios, is not a business spell in this case, as it doesn't put a spell in your hand. There's no more embarassing situation for OmniPlayer, than put the mighty enchantment and... pass the turn with an empty hand.
So LDV is better looked at as second turn counter bait and second turn Vampiric for combo pieces. In FF trio it is needed when you are afraid of gravehate (no Intuition shenanigans) AND need to deal with anti-Omni thing on the stack (so the Wish is busy).
Can I give you some exersise?) Find a way, how can you attack with Emrakul 3-4 times in a row without passing the turn to an opponent with only one Emrakul maindeck and what good cards you should add to the list to make it possible)
When you drop the Omnibomb the deck has plenty of resource to dig through itself (:laugh:) until you find a finisher. LDV is adding little to no improvement to the deck in that context.Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy
You need to be UB to really exploit that card (= cast it PRE-COMBO). If I were you, i'd switch LDV with a intuition in the maindeck, because you can Intu on Emrakul/EtI/Wish and win anyways.
There are literally infinite ways to cheat emrakul in and out of play multiple times in a turn (one is Curfew and another is Cabal Therapy, for example) and exploit its uber come-into-play-trigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy
You can set up the deck to mathematically win the game even if you go the Emrakul route, by taking multiple turns in a row.
1. No, because I love extra turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy
2 No, because things like Oblivion Ring exist. Omniscience is better because you can C.Wish and Trickbind stuff. Our deck is not designed to blindly throw Emrakul onto the battlefield. You can do that against certain decks, but not in every matchup.
Meddling mage on Emrakul will never ever happen unless they have a first Meddlig Mage on SaT. And even then, the correct play is Meddling Mage#2 naming Cunning Wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy
You can go for Ravnica Shocklands: they cost only 2 HP (you can afford that: i play with 1 City and 2 Ancient Tombs*), they are fetchable, and you don't have to pay a lot for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy
U/R and U/B Shocklands are called Watery Grave and Steam Vents :laugh:
*I prefer not to lose random lands while attempting to win.
Cave, you spoiled my exersise --_--
Could you please provide the solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau
So far, I found some solutions but none was really good.
The problem I want to solve is the following :
If the third card is enter the infinite, the solution is pretty easy. But otherwise, I don't see how it is possible. Sure, we can always chain draw spells and hope to find something good, but I would prefer a solution with no luck involved.Quote:
Only 3 card in hand : show + omni + come other card. Find a way to attack with emrakul 3-4 times in a row without passing the turn to an opponent with only one Emrakul maindeck.
My riddle was about Cabal Therapies and their ability to kill Emrakul and shuffle him into library so we can find him again and cast 3 more times (if we play 3 Therapies).Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsaya
You're riddle is harder (no luck term), but is solvable, if we play 1 EtI, 3 Cabal Therapies and 1 Intuition main (which is 1 EtI away from the main I play).
Third card is Cunning Wish. The chain is:
1.Wish -> Firemind's Foresight
2. FF -> Brainstorm, LDV, Intuition
3. Intuiton -> Emrakul
4. ! in responce to shuffling ! LDV -> EtI, Brainstorm -> draw EtI then shuffle all your grave, including resolved FF, Intuition, LDV and BS
5. EtI -> draw everything, put something on top, cast Emrakul, get a turn
6. Draw last card, attack, cast Therapy #1, flashback Therapy #1 with Emrakul, shuffle Emrakul and EtI, draw EtI with Ponder.
7. Repeat step 5 as many times as many Therapies there were in your main. As I play 3, it is 4 attacks with Emri.
Ok thank you.
But then you need to play 1 EtI, 3 Cabal Therapies, 1 Intuition and 1 LDV main. But no RtA in the side.
Actually I play the mono blue version with 1 RtA and 1 elamdari call in the side and 1 Split Decision main (nearly dead before combo, but sometimes you can copy an opponent counter).
I don't like to play a dead card before combo, but then with wish in hand you may win at instant speed with oblivion ring trigger on the stack. I should confess that I really like this line of play. Indeed, one big caveat of the solution wish -> trickbind is that you used a valuable card and thus it is possible you don't have anything more in hand to kill your opponent.
That's why free online deck editors with goldfishing capabilities exist, e.g. tappedout.net.Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Bossy
Allows you to test first, and then discuss about the test results instead of asking questions without any test experience.
Every first Wish after Omni is always Wish -> FF, because it's literally Wish -> Wish + Brainstorm + what you put in 2cc slot. And only after it second Wish goes for what you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsaya
RtA and EC are just winmores with the mighty FF. I stiil can't figure situations when you have to win through them because you cannot make it with FF.
If you don't run Therapies to loop Emrakul, you need RtA against Decks that flood the board with 7+ permanents and kill you on the backswing. EC is nice against Burn with an Eidolon in play because S&T, Wish, EC, Emrakul only costs 6 life. It also helps against any deck with Bolt if you are too low on life to safely LDV for Emrakul. It really depends in how your maindeck looks like.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baum
In particular, D&T with Thalia on the board makes it difficult to afford long storming / cantrip chains. In this scenario, Wish->EC->Emrakul can be the most profitable line of play.
Problem is, by the time you get to swing with Emrakul via FF route, chances are they have enough permanents for a lethal backswing.
Emrakul attacks, trigger on the stack
Opponent leads off with High Tide
...this is one of those moments when RtA seems like a nice card to have in the 75. "No, I kill YOU first" and all that jazz.
I am sorry, but seriously, no. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
1. Solidarity is literally 0,1% of the metagame. I mean, ANY metagame.
2. Even then, Solidarity, one and only win condition is brain freeze. Just in case you didn't notice, most lists run 2 emrakul now so it's really really difficult to get your deck milled.
3. Even then, if you run UB you can patiently wait for them to cast their huge Brain Freeze, then sac Emrakul to Therapy. It is really rare that they are also able to force you to draw before your next turn.
4. That's why they wouldn't usually start their combo with Emrakul trigger on the stack. They normally combo you out during your upkeep to be able to use Reset and force you to draw without using any spell (your turn draw).
5. Even then, if Emrakul is on the battlefield and you run only 1 emrakul so you can get milled, chances are Omniscience is on the battlefield as well. And this deck also happens to pack Trickbind in the sideboard.
Against Solidarity, Trickbind practically reads "1U, Instant, Split Second: You cannot lose this game". If you really fear solidarity, you can scout it with probe, and rush your first cunning wish to get trickbind.
I don't seriously think that Solidarity existing is a valid reason for this deck to run Release the Ants finisher.
Oh btw, for whoever wondering how to make multiple turns with emrakul in UB lists, i made a post 2 pages ago.
Monoblue lists can just pack 1x Curfew, that is also a decent sidein option.
It is very likely the solidarity player will go off in response to show and tell and not the annihilator 6 trigger so the example seems bad. Even if this is the case a decent solidarity player would likely play high tide during the upkeep anyways. Reset can't be played at this point (which you falsly stated above) but trying to make high tide resolve is crucial and not giving the opponent a chance to draw a counter is often correct. Now IF the pretty bad example with high tide in response to Annihilator 6 occur it is FALSE that solidarity can't win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave
Either he wishes for surgical extraction with the emrakul-shuffle trigger on the stack OR he Blue sun's zenith for the rest.
Trickbind does very little as Solidarity can use Snapcaster Mage to recast Brain Freeze.
I still agree that using Solidarity as an example for anything is pretty pointless as you are right that it's not a real deck (sadly). I still want to make sure nobody thinks your post is correct.
Why would you want to have Trickbind in your board and cut RtA? If you run RtA side and LDV main, you can kill in response to any triggered stuff that gets thrown into the S&T. And you get the non Emrakul win for all other corner cases.
Also, I don't see how Curfew is a reasonable sideboard option. Decks that run hatebears tend to run other creatures as well.
FWIW, I attempted to showcase a scenario where you want to go off via RtA in response to the opponent winning the game. Without running RtA in the SB, this generic line of play is not possible.
Solidarity was just the first example that came across my mind while writing the previous post. Probably because Solidarity is the #1 deck utilizing the go off in response strategy anyways which subconsciously connected the dots in my head. I am sure someone can think of a better example (Attack / Tendrils for lethal? Sneaky Show MU, instant combo off of opposing SnT?)
In 2010 in a big tourney, I've had a Solidarity player gladly land an extra Island off my SnT (G2 with Oozing, T2 SnT into Emrakul), let me pass the turn to them to get yet another land drop, then go off in response to Annihilator trigger with Blue Sun's Zenith, forcing me to draw myself to death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
...and yes, it is a pretty far-fetched scenario. I challenge you to think of a better one. :p