[OLD] UGr Threshold

Hmm, yeah I know that's what people like to say...

Hey, don't get me wrong, I am absolutely pro red thresh (I play tempo myself, but still) and I also use pyroclasm and REBs in my board. It's just that I never board them in! Goblins and wheenies just aren't that hot, and against blueish decks I can't think of one where I need the REB. Other thresh and TA builds eat more dirt out of submerge and disrupt, and my absolutely most frequent boarding strategy is -4 daze, +1 counterspell, +3 krosan grip for game 2, provided I am on the draw.

I would also like to hear spirit of the wretch's thoughts about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MSC

Even thought about Izzet Guildmage as a 2-Of? It makes you able to kill Goyfs / Stalker with Burn or generate Card-Advantage with Ponder.

---

You'd need to have a lot (too much) land in play in order to do this.

Against other blue based decks you absolutely want to win the counter war every time and you also never want to see a Balance in play, which is more difficult to achieve without Spell Snares.
If your Balance is working its still difficult to counter your opponents FOWs with Balance. Trading a Blast with a pitched FOW is quite strong here.
MUC is another matchup where your Blasts really make the difference between protecting your beatstick/loosing it or stop his wincon/let it resolve and die.

Pyroclasm is a meta call. His meta features alot of tribal decks I heard.

@Spirit: What I'm really interested in is the Dryad thing. I know that they can get quite strong but they seem very slow and fragile. Does the list play more controllish with them or do they actually support a more aggressive approach?
I can imagine that they are a good removal magnet and then Goyf hits and does his dirty work, does it play out that way?

Why play red over white:
It's because of the sideboard (surprise, surprise^^). I've played 6 tourneys with balanced Grow/r (27-4-0 in matches) and never lost a match due to the lack of swords. There are several reasons why I think the red sideboards outweighs the lack of Swords.

1.) The Aggro Control mirror (Fish, Thresh,...). In my experience this simply boils down to a Counterbalance war. Whoever gets his one online first wins the game. It really is as simple as that. (This is one of the reasons why I like the maindeck Predators) Therefore your main aim in that MU has to be to prevent your opponents CB and resolve your own. Grow/w has nothing to support this plan in the sideboard while Grow/r has the Blasts. This is a hugh advantage! They also come in handy against Faeries, Merfolk, MUC, Landstill...
2.) The Swarm Aggro MU (Affinity, Elves, Merfolk,...). These are traditionally weak MU for Grow/w, but I really like my chances with 4 Pyroclasms in the side. Grow/w hasn't anything to improve the MU post board.
3.) Burn. Against decks like Landstill, 43 Land.dec,... it helps you out a lot, if you don't have to deal 20 damage with your creatures! Especially the PoP post board can turn lost games into wins. The reach that burn spells provide is a real plus in those MUs.

So all in all I think in a metagame consisting of those decks Grow/r has fewer bad MUs than Grow/w and is therefore the better deck.

For reference, here's my SB:

4 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyroclasm
3 Price of Progress

About Dryads:
They sure are pretty fragile at the beginning. But I think their midgame strength outweighs that disadvantage (and some people still underestimate them and don't kill them early enough). As you mentioned they deflect removal from your Goyfs (and most decks in my current meta play 4 maindeck spotremoval at most). You have to compare the Dryads to the Geese and with that permanent heavy list it's actually much easier to play aggressiv with the Dryads than with the Geese, as they Grow much faster. From this point of view they aren't slow, as the Geese would've been way slower. Whether you play aggressive or controllish heavily depends on whether you have an active CB or not. Both approaches are possible.

What matchup do you need the hydroblast for? I've been wanting to try out your list. I love red threshold and this seems like an cool variant. The extra burn in the sb makes it really fun.

<edit> After some mws play with this deck I notice it really plays a little different then normal thresh and alot different then the deck I play (tempo thresh) altho very fun to play. It's better to keep your cantrips in hand till you actually really need to find something for the particular gamestate/matchup. This will give u some steroids for the dryad to feed on. So it won't be such a shitty topdeck. A very nice and yet viable option. I really like the creation.

What are your testing thoughts upon magus of the moon or even blood moon?

This is the list of next level grow I'm testing:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [P2] Island (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [ALA] Forest (2)
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [10E] Quirion Dryad

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [NE] Daze
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [EVE] Snakeform (or 2 predict, but snake its good versus phyrexian dread,tarmo and versus tombst. for obv reasons)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge (in my metagame there are a lot of staxx and its good versus phyrexian and mishra also)
SB: 3 [MOR] Spitebellows (or pop, but I noticed who its very good versus tomb and gofy)

A lot of times I prefer to play dryad in my second turn than goyf, obv if I've a lot of istant/sorcery in my hand!!

I'd always play dryad before goyf in the early game. Great for distracting removal! I think i'd just dont use relics md in my meta. F/I works better with the upcoming of elf decks and random weenie.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waikiki

I'd always play dryad before goyf in the early game. Great for distracting removal! I think i'd just dont use relics md in my meta. F/I works better with the upcoming of elf decks and random weenie.

---

Yeah, if in your metagame there're a lot of aggro decks fire/ice is better than relic, but you must cut your sideboard and this is very hard for me. Every slots is bare minimum.
I play relic main because my metagame require it!!! :(:(

@ If I don't play relic main, I prefer play spell snare then fire/ice

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waikiki

What matchup do you need the hydroblast for?

---

Well, decks with a lot of red [/Captain Obvious]
Goblins, Imperial Painter, Aggro Loam, Burn, Goyf Sligh, Zoo,...
These are some of the decks I face with quite some regularity

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waikiki

<edit> After some mws play with this deck I notice it really plays a little different then normal thresh and alot different then the deck I play (tempo thresh) altho very fun to play. It's better to keep your cantrips in hand till you actually really need to find something for the particular gamestate/matchup. This will give u some steroids for the dryad to feed on. So it won't be such a shitty topdeck.

---

Yeah, this list obviously plays a lot more controllish than Tempo Thresh for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waikiki

A very nice and yet viable option. I really like the creation.

---

Thanks a lot =)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waikiki

What are your testing thoughts upon magus of the moon or even blood moon?

---

Your manabase can support them but it's a metagame call if you really want to run them. I don't like them in my meta, but as I said, there's almost no Landstill/43 land/5C Thresh... present, so they aren't worth the slot. They also weaken the PoP in the board a little, as your opponent is more likely to fetch basics after he got screwed by Blood Moon the first game.

This saturday I will try 2 Snakeform (they should really be good in this deck) and 3 Magma Jet (just to see how they work out) for the open slots.

Have you tried submerge? I rather use this agains the decks you mentionned since they also play green. And it's also great putting tombstalkers away. Maybe im just hyped about the card but it has been really good to me. It seems to me the goblin matchup is allready favorable.

I'll sleeve your list up next tournament I play in. Trying to get some variation instead of always playing thrash.

Perhaps not run the mage main but sb. This way pop wont use it weakness. Then again we wont have 20 sb slots.

I prefer to play relic main then magma jet, because for me it isnt so good.
Okay it kills differents goblin, some merfolks and some slivers.
I think like waikiki who the very problemes are : tombst., ichorid,aggro loam and lftl control. For this reason relic >>> magma jet.

Today I tested this deck versus:

- aggro loam (2-0 won thanks to relic main)
- team america (2-1 won thanks to relic main)
- ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh urg (2-0 won thanks to relic main)
- Ub control (2-1 won thanks to relic main and pyrcolasm sd)

Relic main is very very strongh.
I must think if submerge is better than spitebellows.

Spittebellows kills, but its cc is 1RR : tarmo, tomst, mysic enforcer
Submermerge bouncer, I can play it gratis : phyrexian dread. and all creatures (akroma too).

Which decks (tier 1 - 1.5) play green:

ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (ugw,ugr,ugb) <-- submerge >>> spittebellows
Team America <-- submerge >>> spittebellows
Dreadstill (ugr and ugw) <-- submerge >>> spittebellow

@edit : versus goyf I gain a turn, but I can draw a counter for it and play it in my opponent next turn :P
@edit2 : In my testing today I never draw snake, but I think who its very good!!

hi guys,

I really like the deck. I'm testing it with snakeforms and they are pretty good. + it makes 6 3cc for CB which is a pretty good thing.

One thing I am afraid of would be Humility. How you deal with that? What would you cut in the SB to put place for 1-2 Grips?

Current SB:

4x Beb
3x Reb
1x Relic
3x Pop
4x Pyroclasm

I'm aware of the TA Mu so I would like to keep the 3x Pop in. Maybe 1 clasm, 1 Relic? Or even better 2 Bebs? The Beb's comes in the MU's where I feel pretty confidant about: Burn (due to CB), Gobs (due to Bolt and clasm), aggro loam (due to Relic's, Pop and Trygon)

PM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enigma

hi guys,

I really like the deck. I'm testing it with snakeforms and they are pretty good. + it makes 6 3cc for CB which is a pretty good thing.

One thing I am afraid of would be Humility. How you deal with that? What would you cut in the SB to put place for 1-2 Grips?

Current SB:

4x Beb
3x Reb
1x Relic
3x Pop
4x Pyroclasm

I'm aware of the TA Mu so I would like to keep the 3x Pop in. Maybe 1 clasm, 1 Relic? Or even better 2 Bebs? The Beb's comes in the MU's where I feel pretty confidant about: Burn (due to CB), Gobs (due to Bolt and clasm), aggro loam (due to Relic's, Pop and Trygon)

PM

---

you should not play 4 pyroclasm, 2 is plenty since you got beb/reb for goblins/merfolk. no need for price of progress either.
i think ichorid would be a bad matchup to worry bout in the sb, -3 pop -2 pyroclasm +1 tormod's crypt +1 relic +3 krosan grip

At first glance, I'm far from sold on this build.

1. 3 Relics maindeck, really ? I know the card is good, but unless you know your meta is infested with Loam/TA/Threshold, I wouldn't play it MD. Why ? Because you have almost no removal/bounce MD (4 Bolts is far from enough).

Snakeform is cute but seems way too slow. The match-ups you mention the card being useful are where you'll have to play around a combination of Stifle/Wasteland/Daze... which would tend, in my view, to make it slowwww.

2. A deck with such a high permanent count and so few low costed instants (cantrips in particular) doesn't seem like an optimal place for Quirion Dryad.

3. Your build looks slowwwwww...

*: These remarks are based on past experience with UGr-Threshold (with CB and with or without Dryad), but not on playtesting your actual list... so I may be wrong... but I'd be really really surprised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enigma

Or even better 2 Bebs?

---

Cutting 2 BEB doesn't make all to much sense in my opinon. If you don't think you need them I would cut them all! Playing Grip in that slot in a Landstil/Rifter/Quinn heavy metagame seems reasonable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enigma

One thing I am afraid of would be Humility. How you deal with that? What would you cut in the SB to put place for 1-2 Grips?

---

Quirion Dryad keeps its counters already acquired before Humility enters play which should be quite annoying for LS. But I would play 2 Grips in the SB too.

@Spirit of the wretch

Ok, after some early testing of "Next level grow", I like it a lot, and I would like to take back some of my earlier criticism. I am now considering changing my pet deck Canadian thresh for this one for the next event, but I would like some advise on how to use the sideboard. What goes in for each given matchup is pretty clear, what goes out is always harder. A quick rundown of the tier 1-2 decks in some sort of -/+ list would be highly appreciated.

Also, is price of progress one of the most valuable players in the aggro-loam and zoo matchups, or are the blue blasts enough? I am considering changing the PoP's for blood moons to improve the landstill and land.dec matchup.

Cheers!

I haven't seen any discussion about SwanThresh lately... has the deck fallen out of favor?

I remember the deck used to kick ass... I mean what happened?

Is it the skill requirement that has deterred too many?

Or does it just not make the cut anymore?


Anyways... here was my old list:

lands//18
1 forest
2 island
3 tropical island
4 volcanic island
3 wooded foothills
3 polluted delta
2 flooded strand

creatures//11
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
3 swans

spells//31
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divining top

1 lightning storm
4 lightning bolt
3 chain of plasma

4 force of will
3 counterbalance
2 spell snare
3 daze


sideboard//
3 pyroclasm
3 red elemental blast
3 magus of the moon
3 krosan grip
3 tormod's crypt


The list was simple, but powerful... I remember it giving me quite a few firsts at my old local tournament.

I think I got the MD list from Nihil.

UGw Balanced and UGr Tempo Threshold are just better than Swanthresh at the moment and the increase in LD Strategies (TA, Dreastill, Aggro Loam) hinders the decks gameplan too much. Its usually better to play with something that is actually castable then. The large quantity of burnspells is still good, especially as the de facto Incinerates deal 3 instead of Fire/Ice's 2. It mattered a lot, especially when beating lower tier decks where Swan Thresh is extremely strong due to the possibility of a late game combo.