[Deck] Burn

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Originally Posted by ThoSha

Anyone thought about a RW Burn deck with Lightning Helix and Orims Chant yet?
I bet its more competitive in a developed meta than stupid burn tbh.

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If you want Boros, you need beatsticks to make it work like Kiln Fiend, Steppe Lynx, Goblin Guide, and Reckless Charge. A minor white splash won't do you any good unless you're pushing fast dudes through for damage and then finishing up with burn. This is the Burn thread...if you're not just paying red mana for efficient damage, you're not playing burn. Grim Lavamancer and Goblin Guide usually the only exceptions, and Goblin Guide can force an argument that you're playing sligh, not burn.

I know of one fish deck that has dropped Cursecatchers for Mental Misstep...but doesn't play Standstill. I honestly haven't seen many fish decks using Standstill for a while...most have dropped Standstill for Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, a black splash Saito-style for Perish in the sideboard, or a white splash for Swords.

I think Standstill will get back in there, though. Turn 1 Vial/Mental Misstep, Turn 2 Standstill is really, really strong. Fish doesn't have to sling Force of Will at Wild Nacatl or Goblin Lackey anymore...they have 4 more weapons to do that with MM. Standstill then steps in to put them so far ahead in cards (after you commit to breaking the Standstill...because you HAVE to so you can start a clock) that you probably can't recover. Fish is situated nicely ATM. They can counter your turn 1 Lava Spike/Chain Lightning, play Standstill, and then draw 3 more cards to have 3 more answers to your burn spells. This is when you really have to look at Burn as a combo deck...and they just countered your combo pieces.

I have been testing burn pretty hard for the past few weeks in this post NPH legacy. My list has been really consistant that it will fall into place as something like this.

creatures
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Goblin Guide
3x Figure of Destiny/Kiln Fiend (Debate here: am I going for the explosive plays more (kiln Fiend) or go with consistancy (FoD), probably going to come down to a day of decision.)

Spells
4x Lava Spike
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning bolt
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
4x Rift Bolt
4x Flame Rift
1x Pulse of the Forge (has been a surprising 1 of that kills planewalkers off if unanswered, just wish I could mana burn control my life with this card more, may change to 1x Flames of the blood hand)

Lands
4x Arid Mesa
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded foothills
8x Mountain

Side Board
3x Searing Blaze
3x Smash to Smithereen
4x Pryoblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
3x Mindbreak Trap/Tormod's Crypt/Vexing Shusher (everything else is locked in but this 3x slot just falls to the "What I fear most" spots)

its been testing good against bant varients, Zoo, merfolk, and various combo decks...still has the Counterbalance issues....

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Agreed...I think Mental Misstep actually HELPED burn get a little better. Go figure...

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I'd like to think the same, but unfortunately I think that you are wrong if we are talking about a build with creatures: 4 Goblin Guide, 4 FOD, 4 Grim Lavamancer. And that's the problem for me: creatures.

With MM it's very hard to do damage with those creatures to blue decks. I've also found that it's harder to pass Tarmogoyf with FOD. Bant decks have to FOW you a creature or lose one to get a 4/5 Tarmogoyf, but now it's easier with MM. (Although Grim can sometimes solve it)

About Lavamancer I think that its main task is to fight against Merfolks, and sure it's not going to love MM :tongue:

Finally the same for REB, it can be harder to deal with those RWM among other things.

So my conclusion is that we need to adapt to MM. And as I said before IMO that adaptation should be run more than 12 creatures and try to be a little more stable.

I'm currently testing this.

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kargan Dragonlord
3 Hell’s Thunder
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 4 Searing Blaze
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Mental Misstep

I know that some options are very rare and they don't seem appropriate for legacy but for now they are working well for me. Anyway I'll try to give some comment:

Kargan Dragonlord: Similar role than FOD. The deck has very few instants so level up speed sorcery is not very problematic. I board it out against heavy burn decks (Zoo and Canadian). I have found evasion great and it can do a good job in difficult situations (flooded, COTV, Leyline of Sanctity). MM in side can also help it.

Hell's Thunder: Good against Control decks. I thought about it because I needed a creature that wasn't too bad against the decks where I boarded out Kargan and that also could help in flooded situations (I run 21 lands due to Kargan)

MM in side: Sure it's not so good as Tormod against Dredge or so good as Mindbreak Trap against TES but it can help against all combo decks (Dredge, TES, Reanimator, Spiral Tide or even Combo Elves) and can have other great uses as I said in a previous post.


I also wanted to say that I think that adding Tarmo (return to Goyf Sligh) would be a good choice post misstep. It's a great creature for giving you stability and if they MM your Guide, you'll have at least a 3/4 fast Goyf. Unfortunately I haven't them so that's why I run those red low quality creatures. I've also considered others (Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, Kiln Fiend, Plated Geopede or Ball Lightning) but I neither like them too much. On the other hand I wouldn't play Lynx Burn post MM because an opening losing Lynx to MM and Plateau to Wasteland seems very harmful for me and sure it's not the most suitable creature for giving you stability :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Ultralisk

I have some questions though. What is Searing Blaze boarded in *against*? The rest of the sb seems logical. Also what comes out for what goes in? I know there's a lot of redundancy so it may be a straight up matter of drop the least powerful mb card for said MU for x but yeah, all help appreciated!

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I board them against any heavy creature deck with at least some creature in range like Tribal decks, Zoo, Mirror (-4 POP), Bant aggro or GW aggro.

@Azel...you do make some good points on how the deck needs to evolve but I think you are moving it up too far...burn has always to me beena deck that plays on the 1 spell, 2 spells, 3 spells plan...meaning that the first 6 spells you play between on board creatures and spell played with them should be enough to win a match. i do think planning on unearthing hell's thunder can be a long shot some time, Or even getting past 4 land. and DragonLord just feels like a tough mana sink to me...its just ask to eat a kill spell after devoting mana to get him even to a 4/4 flyer. Positive note, you deck is espeically better to a control long game, that can occure more and more, if the standstill decks make a hard return. Well one final local before the GP, will maybe drop a report in the Tourney Report section pending some results.

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Originally Posted by Deck Dont Matter

@Azel...you do make some good points on how the deck needs to evolve but I think you are moving it up too far...

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Maybe you're right. About unearth Hell's Thunder it's true that in a lot of games I won't get (and I won't want) the 5 lands but it's just when I be in problems when I will be able to use it (yep, I only see the positive side :laugh:). I also wanted to explain that I don't run those creatures due to control decks (I think that Burn has a favourable pairing against any control deck, except Countertop) but I thought that I needed more creatures to make them get sense post MM. I also wanted to say (cause maybe before I looked too negative :smile:) that I've won some games against MM control decks in my online testing.

IMO other good way to adapt to MM is to run a pure Burn deck. In fact I prefer a pure Burn deck against most of the control decks. I played it some time ago but I consider that the creature build is much stronger and also more fun ^^

Any comment about your experience against MM decks would be appreciated.

P.D. I hope to see that report :wink:

I post again because I've just seen a very nice and interesting creature ^^:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ily/arcana/716
Too bad that STP is the main removal here. Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Azel Orfat

I post again because I've just seen a very nice and interesting creature ^^:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ily/arcana/716
Too bad that STP is the main removal here. Any thoughts?

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the card seems very busted with some discard outlet which is a sorcery, instant, or planeswalker.

it is very good with chandra ablaze, but hard to have controlled discard and damage in legacy. i'd say you could use it with firestorm

The creature seems really good on its own merit, and even better in the context of Chandra Ablaze. However, I don't think this creature (nor planeswalkers) truly belong in Burn.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

The creature seems really good on its own merit, and even better in the context of Chandra Ablaze. However, I don't think this creature (nor planeswalkers) truly belong in Burn.

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yup i agree, but if the cast cost was RR instead of 1RR. i think it would be a solid burn staple. goblin guide at R and 2/2 haste definitely makes the cut on some lists.

This weekend local testing brought up a few things against Mental Misstep. It does slow you down...when they lose life to cast it, your happy. When they tap a land for it, your sad. I played against 1 Junk(W), 1 Team America(W), 1 no-candles Spiral Tide(L), and jank reanimator(L)(Special note:Guy turn 1 Iona both games). I do think the board is about right, Kiln Fiend really does help push the damage through while killing creatures that get in the way. Also believe I have to change up the Sideboard and maindeck a little for the GP.
I want to get Surgical Exstraction into the board...and a extra Kiln fiend in the main deck dropping the pulse of the Forge.

SB to
2x Red Elemental Blast
4x Pyroblast
3x Surgical Exstraction
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Searing Blaze

I just think that shusher has a time and place when it is needed in the format. Right now I'm not sure if it does...

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Originally Posted by Azel Orfat

I post again because I've just seen a very nice and interesting creature ^^:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ily/arcana/716
Too bad that STP is the main removal here. Any thoughts?

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3 mana for 2 damage, not viable for burn... it has a nice ability but i dont see this playing in legacy, even if you build a deck around it.

4 days and counting til GP:Providence. Have had to resort to Workstation testing due to work schedule this week but ran the gautlet last night to some interesting results with a few of my buddies.
Most of the test was preboarded matches to determine if Figure of Destiny was to be played over Kiln Fiend. Enough testing shows that Kiln Fiend just does the job more consistant..If he goes unanswered then the game is over. Here is to hoping.
Also SB changed up a little...
4xPyroblast
3xSearing Blaze
3xSmash 2 Smithereens
2xVexing Shusher
3xSurgical Extraction

Surgical just seems to help in so many match ups from combo->Control. Board it in against standstill blue killed 1 jace,TMS and removed the rest from the game. It just helps so much against those 1 shot win conditions.

Anyone got a idea or 2 fro between figure or kiln let me know...always willing to listen to logic.

I just got finished with some playing around online. I think burn is as well positioned now as it's ever gonna be. Last time the planets aligned was right before ColdSnap dropped with that damn CounterBalance. Now adays the old CB isn't the hottest of metagame choices. Burn easily rolls most Standstill decks, Ancient Tomb decks, and will always be favored over goblins by design. I don't think it's GP top 8 material by any means but a solid day 2 is not out of the question. Haven't had time to test Merfolk or Team America, but I'm guessing not bad againt Folk and not good against America. I think PoP in the main is mandatory, at least 2-3 and I would never go less than 4 between main and side. I think the breakout day ruiner of choice is a card that I have a soft spot for... 4x Ankh of Mishra in the SB. So mean. Granted it's about as bad a late game card as you can find, but stick one turn 2 against a Standstill deck and ride a river of tears to victory. Seriously I just went like 11-1 vs Standstill decks in casual testing. Once they hit about 10 life they can't afford to play Standstill without a serious clock or you can just load up a full hand of burn and eat them alive with near infinite time. The only game I lost vs Still I managed to draw 5 lands in a row against his Standstill + 2 Factories with him at 4 life. Your results may vary, but I'm tempted to break this out soon before the GP results shake up the meta and I have to wait another 6 years for burn to be playable again.

Kiln Fiend seems to all-in against the creature decks in the format that are now chalk-full of removal and a little worse than Figure of Destiny against the control decks. The 3/4x slot that Figure takes up I see as filling a couple roles: eating a swords so your opponent can't hit their own Knight/Goyf to stay alive, and as another early beater against control. I've actually been running Top in this slot with a lot of success, it can really even out the deck's draws.

Ps everyone may want to start running more Red Elemental Blasts over Pyroblasts in case people put in Misdirections against you. Pretty corner case but may still come up.

@ Chandra's Phoenix Discussion

I would have to agree. I don't believe that Chandra's Phoenix belongs in burn. It is too slow and not enough damage for the mana you invest in it. Although it makes me want to try some sort of deck that uses it along with firestorm. But even with that idea, I think it is still subpar.

@ dontbiteitholmes

I was considering and used the same strategy with ankh of mishra back before I got a hold of all of my fetch lands. It is a very good way to knock down an opponent real quick or stall the game. Taking 5 damage per fetch land is a a pretty steep price. It is super fun when you follow a turn two Ankh with a turn three price of progress and kill them for their land shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by oneiros76

Ps everyone may want to start running more Red Elemental Blasts over Pyroblasts in case people put in Misdirections against you. Pretty corner case but may still come up.

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Misdirection can still retarget either one of these spells at itself, causing it to have no effect.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Misdirection can still retarget either one of these spells at itself, causing it to have no effect.

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The difference is when you target a permanent.


Again with MM although I think that it's problematic against us, maybe indirectly it leaves a favourable metagame for Burn. Looking at GPprovidence, Combo decks and Countertop didn't make a big appearance. Except for Bant that can be hard due to RWM I think that Merfolks, Zoo, Team America and Landstill are all favourable pairings for Burn (or at least were :laugh:).

Only a Burn deck in Day2 :( Any comment from Burn players at the GP would be appreciated.

I ended up playing sligh at the GP went 5-3 running into merfolk most of the day(my 3 loses). The games/matches honestly came down to 1 thing if I stuck a mancer I won if I dident eventually they would get ahead of me.

edit: deck list for reference

Creatures: 15
4 goblin guide
4 grim lavamancer
4 hellspark elemental
3 vexing susher

Burn: 18
4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 rift bolt
3 PoP
3 fireblast

Other: 4
4 ankh of mishra

Sweepers: 2
2 flamebreak

Mana: 21
4 simian spiritguide
17 mountain


SB: 15
4 pyro pillar
3 pithing needle
3 pulverize
2 shattering spree
1 vexing susher
1 flamebreak
1 ratchet bomb

@ TheDeadMan

I hope you had a good time at the GP. Going 5/3 is not too shabby. I am curious about how useful you thought the Ankh of Mishra and Vexing Shusher were in the main. It seems to me that there could be slightly better options, but then again I probably shouldn't argue with success. It would seem to me that you list has some anti-synergies built into it. For example you are not running fetchlands to power you lavamancer and thin your land count, most likely due to the Ankh inclusion. How do you feel about your current setup versus one without the ankh and fetches? Can you discuss your inclusion of Simian Spirit Guide? He can give really fast starts but doesn't net you much more damage. What is your logic on this choice? My last question would be, would the slots filled by Shusher and Ankh be better filled by some combination of Lava Spike and/or Flame Rift? I hope I didn't ask too many questions. Your build is very unique and I would like to learn a bit about it from the pilot.

I didn't get a very audible response last time I posted about this, so it seems to be rez time. What do you guys think about 6 point life swings w/ 3 of those damage? How about on turn 0? For 0 mana or tempo disadvantage? I like Chancellor of the Dross.