[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

. . .I can certainly understand that. A question: what do you have that's old that you could sell? If you're just an acquirer of cards, then that's fine too -- but a lot of times, if you played back during that era, you very well might be sitting on a stockpile that you don't even know about, which you could then transmute into some of the newer staples like Tops. . . .

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Thanks for the reply there. Actually, I've already off'ed about everything that I was willing to let go of to get some newer stuff for a couple other decks. So I'm out of trade stock. :frown:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

. . .To answer your question: I would definitely get the Thragtusk. Top is really important too, obviously, but there are two dynamics at work here:

-Thragtusk is a Zenith target. This means that, on a per card basis, you're going to see that Thragtusk more often than you're going to see Tops. Each is capable of winning games on their own, but I think that I would err on the side of the tutor target. Tusk is also the single best thing we can do against a lot of the decks in the format, like Miracles, where another option like Finks wouldn't work. There are a few passable substitutes for Top. None of them are -amazing-, but they'll do while you work on getting Tops.

-Top is a legacy staple, and has been for a very long time. If you're at a legacy event, you'll be around other legacy players. There is a decent chance that one or more of them may have Tops available for you to borrow. Legacy players will almost certainly not have Thragtusks for borrow. . .

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Thanks for input there. How highly do you value Sigarda, Host of Herons and Baneslayer Angel as cards I should focus on before Tops?

Here is that list I said I'd post:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate (I have these, but no Maelstrom Pulses or Abrupt Decays. Neither seem totally out of reach)

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recerring Nightmare
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sylvan Library (trying to make up for missing tops)

1 Sensei's Divining Top (I only have the 1)
1 Enlightened Tutor

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Academy Rector
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, The Morning Star
1 Kokusho, The Evening Star
1 Fierce Empath

1 Scrubland
4 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
8 Fetchlands That Get B, G or W

Again, this was made up with what I own. See previous post regarding my budget situation. I have 3 Natural Order and 4 Progenitus, so the NO sideboard plan could be done too.

4 proggys? Trade 2 for 2 tops i say.

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Originally Posted by Oiolosse

4 proggys? Trade 2 for 2 tops i say.

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Yea, but I use 'em in Sneak-Show. They're anti-Karakas! :wink:

I would go for 1 Thragtusk first, then as many Tops as you need. Thrag is an important GSZ target so getting the first one multiplies. Thragtusk will also stay expensive for quite a while because it will be one of the defining T2 cards until it rotates out so waiting won't make it better.

Thragtusk is better than Finks, but for the $ you could go Finks + Sigarda (and have a little left over). Sigarda is a rock star in my estimation.

Okay, had a bit of overtime on the check this week and picked up a Thragtusk for $20 along with a $10 Baneslayer Angel. :cool:

Gonna work on Tops and a Sigarda next.

Nice, and considering you have Sneak and Show built (im assuming by your remark) you can always use prizes from winnings to slowly gather the cards you need for Nic Fit.

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Originally Posted by Yoric

... And I said I'm fine with that.

Our deck is one that thrives in the late game. We even use two-sided ramp to get the late game going faster. If you're telling me that if I have a Rector on board you're going to stop making me lose 2 life each turn, thus allowing this deck to develop further, I am completely fine with it. Give me more turns to naturally draw that Deed, or an Abrupt Decay or Swords or whatever it takes. The longer the game goes, the more favored I am; and if you're holding back on your DRS because of my Rector, so be it.

The point about DRS being worse because of his prevalence is well taken. I just don't have the fear you all seem to have.

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Hey Yoric,

I understand you are fine with DRS stalling waiting for a Rector to be activated. I believe we all know here Nic Fit is a late gamer nuts.
The problem is that, me being your opponent and knowing what Rector does, i.e. bringing the late game you are thriving for before it should happen, I really cannot afford that. It is basically buying time hoping finding a way to handle the late game, rather than having nothing for a too-early late game.
I really do not believe activating a DRS for +2 life or -2 life on you, is worth in exchange of the Rector. And I believe that you would be actually quite happy if Rector could be activated under DRS, as much as I would.


@Arianrhod: Nice Top4 on Jupiter.
I saw your updated BGw Rector build, and was quite surprised to see neither StP nor Decay. Is this meta-dependent to you ?
Also, nice to see you back already :D, as well as Tao

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Originally Posted by vilnico

Hey Yoric,

I understand you are fine with DRS stalling waiting for a Rector to be activated. I believe we all know here Nic Fit is a late gamer nuts.
The problem is that, me being your opponent and knowing what Rector does, i.e. bringing the late game you are thriving for before it should happen, I really cannot afford that. It is basically buying time hoping finding a way to handle the late game, rather than having nothing for a too-early late game.
I really do not believe activating a DRS for +2 life or -2 life on you, is worth in exchange of the Rector. And I believe that you would be actually quite happy if Rector could be activated under DRS, as much as I would.


@Arianrhod: Nice Top4 on Jupiter.
I saw your updated BGw Rector build, and was quite surprised to see neither StP nor Decay. Is this meta-dependent to you ?
Also, nice to see you back already :D, as well as Tao

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Thanks =D

Not as much as you'd think. The most traditional removal that I've ever had maindeck in Rector was 1x StP, many, many moons ago. The deck runs Vindicate, Pulse, and Fetters for spot removal, and then the 3 Deeds and a Moat for sweepers. Also, Rector thrives on gunking up the board. It doesn't necessarily need to remove your Tarmogoyf, if you can't swing into me because I have a Rector sitting there being scary.

That's actually arguably the single scariest thing about Deathrite. It's not that it limits our graveyard options (though it does), or that it's a way to generate reach when we have a Moat established (although it does). It's that he removes the terror that our opponents should feel when they're staring at a Rector. Suddenly, they're not afraid to attack into it at all. -That-'s a problem.

But yeah. The maindeck has more than enough spot removal and sweepers to be okay, even though they are non-traditional in nature (StP/Decay).

As for the sideboard, I did have a 2x Abrupt Decay there for a while. However, they got dropped to make room for the NO package. If you'd like, you can slot in a pair of Abrupt Decays where the 2x Leyline of Sanctitys are, but I think that I like Leyline better because it's a bit more flexible, and it provides another layer of lock against combo. While they try to find an answer to the Leyline, it gives you more time to establish Nether Void for the win. Abrupt Decay does nothing against combo. Obviously it has its own strengths as well, but I'm inclined to say that Rector, at least, is okay without it.

Note: if you're looking at a GBW deck that does -not- run Rector, then you definitely want StP and Decay somewhere. I'm not an expert of the "rock" sub-archetype, though, so I can't say how many of what there. But it basically comes down to space. Rector runs the Rector package and attending enchantments, Rock runs spot removal in those slots instead. Just a matter of what you want to do.

@Tim -- Sigarda should be your next acquisition IMO. Sigarda and Thragtusk will win you a disturbing amount of games. Like, Sun Titan and Yosei are the big bombs and the horrifying hitters.....but they're usually what gets answered. They demand that the opponent has the answer, the opponent uses the answer, then you start dropping the 2nd-string in Baneslayer, Sigarda, and Tusk -- and they're usually out of answers at that point. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have Mirri's Guile laying around somewhere, if you didn't already get rid of them. Guile is a good substitute for Top while you're waiting to get them. Obviously Top is dramatically better, but IMO Guile is the best of the "other" candidates, probably followed by Sylvan.

Also, you'll notice an immediate difference in the deck once you get the 5-drops. 5 is a "magic number" for Nic Fit, because if you lead land->Explorer, pass, Phy Tower, sac, you have 5 mana on turn 2.

Likewise, you should try to get at least one of the Sakura-Tribe Elders soon, because 3 is another magic number. Land->Therapy, pass, Land->Explorer, flashback, gives you 3 mana available on t2, which you can use to Zenith out Sakura-Tribe (among other various and diverse lines). IMO you want to flesh out the GSZ options, get the bombs and the win conditions set up so that you have the power, then start adding in the stuff that makes it more consistent.

Arianrhod, what the point to board in one innocent blood vs Junk with ScapeWish? Is it better than leave it for wish?

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Originally Posted by Osmin

Arianrhod, what the point to board in one innocent blood vs Junk with ScapeWish? Is it better than leave it for wish?

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I was wondering the same thing, and why you put the therapy in the SB? Ive always considered having one SB cause of burning wish, but I am wondering when it is a good idea to move it to the SB?


I havent been to mythic or jupiter lately cause ive just been too busy. I hope to make it to january's though.

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Originally Posted by Osmin

Arianrhod, what the point to board in one innocent blood vs Junk with ScapeWish? Is it better than leave it for wish?

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I was wondering the same thing, and why you put the therapy in the SB? Ive always considered having one SB cause of burning wish, but I am wondering when it is a good idea to move it to the SB?


I havent been to mythic or jupiter lately cause ive just been too busy. I hope to make it to january's though.

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I gauged this based on how the pattern of the Junk matchup seemed to be going. The Junk player would drop some shit, I'd kill it, he'd drop some more shit, I'd kill it, he'd kill my shit, and then he'd drop a solitary remaining threat. I figured that this would give me time to find the Blood maindeck, since I'd likely have a Top chugging away. Also, keep in mind that, thanks to Bob, we often have information about what's in our opponent's hand. This makes having a Therapy in the board a very attractive option. I would also not board in the Blood without boarding out a Therapy -- you always want to have a 1cmc way to sacrifice a Veteran Explorer as a Wish target.

The ideal situation here was the opportunity that I missed vs the first Junk player (the one I lost to). If I'd remembered to Wish for the Therapy, I could have made him discard his hand (I know both of the cards in it), ramping out of my mana screw in the process, and blowing up his board. Then I would have been able to stabilize easily, and take that game.

Burning Wish in general is weird in the Junk matchup. You don't want to Wish for something that you can't use the same turn, because your Wish target will just get discarded. At the same time, you don't really want to hold on to Wishes, because then they'll get discarded and, worst-case scenario, Extirpated.

The best way to think about Burning Wish in general is that you want variable cards in specific roles. In general, the slots are:

[Catch-all Answer]
[Catch-all Sweeper]
[Fast/Small Sweeper]
[1-cmc Explorer removal]
[3rd Scapeshift]
[Land destruction]
[Teeg Removal]

Those 7 are fixed slots. What card occupies those slots is variable. So for example, the 1-cmc Explorer Removal slot can be the default Innocent Blood, or you can put the Blood maindeck and board out a Therapy to occupy that slot. I feel that in the Junk matchup, having a Therapy accessible via Wish is more useful than having the Blood accessible via Wish. Blood's better maindeck, and smart Junk players (like JC) will Extirpate Cabal Therapy ASAP. Therapy is actually one of those secret little chinks in our armor, so to speak. If you can get rid of the Therapies, that hurts Nic Fit like hell. I mean, it's obviously recoverable, and I'm torn as to whether it's wise to board in Surgical/Pate vs non-Rector Nic Fit in general, from the opposition point of view. Like in g3 vs JC, sure, he Extirpated three of my core cards (Therapy, Wish, Deed), but those Extirpates could have been business spells instead -- more threats or removal. It sucked, and it hurt, but then he didn't have the resources left to deal with my beatdown plan. But yeah. Protecting a Therapy is probably a good idea in the matchup. I also like to board out a Therapy against the various flavors of Stoneblade, for the same general reason -- they like to Surgical/Extirpate Therapy, -and- you want a Therapy accessible via Wish because Stoneforge gives you information, and that way you have a Therapy available on-demand in the midgame, where you'll have likely used any earlier copies to hit Jace, Force, Brainstorm, Clique, etc.

That all make sense?

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

. . .@Tim -- Sigarda should be your next acquisition IMO. Sigarda and Thragtusk will win you a disturbing amount of games. Like, Sun Titan and Yosei are the big bombs and the horrifying hitters.....but they're usually what gets answered. They demand that the opponent has the answer, the opponent uses the answer, then you start dropping the 2nd-string in Baneslayer, Sigarda, and Tusk -- and they're usually out of answers at that point. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have Mirri's Guile laying around somewhere, if you didn't already get rid of them. Guile is a good substitute for Top while you're waiting to get them. Obviously Top is dramatically better, but IMO Guile is the best of the "other" candidates, probably followed by Sylvan.

Also, you'll notice an immediate difference in the deck once you get the 5-drops. 5 is a "magic number" for Nic Fit, because if you lead land->Explorer, pass, Phy Tower, sac, you have 5 mana on turn 2.

Likewise, you should try to get at least one of the Sakura-Tribe Elders soon, because 3 is another magic number. Land->Therapy, pass, Land->Explorer, flashback, gives you 3 mana available on t2, which you can use to Zenith out Sakura-Tribe (among other various and diverse lines). IMO you want to flesh out the GSZ options, get the bombs and the win conditions set up so that you have the power, then start adding in the stuff that makes it more consistent.

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Ok, thanks for the input there. I'm pretty sure I saw some Guiles in my box of cards so I'll have to dig through there again. I also have the Tribe-Elders already from when I managed to aquire a collection from a friend so I'll dig them out too. Guess I need to take a closer look at your list, looks like this might be a big rebuild of mine.

Again, thanks for the input. Seems like the help in this thread is a lot more friendly than several of the others. :cool:

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

Seems like the help in this thread is a lot more friendly than several of the others. :cool:

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/trolololl on
Haven't read other threads, but NicFit is funnier than it is stronger in people's mind.
Hence all friendly people play and talk about Nic Fit, the others go play pro/competitive/DTB/tiers 1(whatever it means).decks :p
/trolololl off

@Arianrhod: Thx for your feedback, and also I like a lot the Cabal sideout tech, that is really a nice feature with B.Wishes.

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Originally Posted by vilnico

/trolololl on
Haven't read other threads, but NicFit is funnier than it is stronger in people's mind.
Hence all friendly people play and talk about Nic Fit, the others go play pro/competitive/DTB/tiers 1(whatever it means).decks :p
/trolololl off

@Arianrhod: Thx for your feedback, and also I like a lot the Cabal sideout tech, that is really a nice feature with B.Wishes.

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Meh. And then we beat up on the pro/competitive/DTB/tier 1 decks. The only thing that stops Nic Fit from being competitive at a high level of play is the skill of those who pilot it. I've said that for a long ass time now (while I've been topping events left and right). Too many people pick it up because they think it looks fun, or because they have standard cards and they want to break into legacy. Then they start playing it, and they lose with it. Hard. I've said that all along, too. If you're not prepared to lose with this deck for a few months while you learn its ins and outs, don't bother. But yeah. People pick it up, and they suck with it. That puts the idea into other peoples' heads that the deck is bad, and then that "bad deck is bad" notion sticks with them, so the deck as a whole gets looked down upon, when it's really not the deck's fault at all.

Hell, if you watched those videos from SCG the other day, Brad Nelson picked up the deck, had NO IDEA what the cards did (thought Veteran put lands into play tapped, for fucks' sake), and STILL beat Todd Anderson on BUG Control something like 4-2.

I know we recently lost Megadeus to Stoneblade, and Claymore to Rock, which is a shame. But yeah. I do my best to answer any and all questions that are posed to me in this thread, in the hopes that people other than myself and Qweerios can start actually doing well with the deck and making it respected. I've had a lot of people tell me, to my face, that I'm the only Nic Fit that they've encountered that they respect. And I think that a lot of that comes from the fact that I've been both playing the deck for a year and a half now, and that I've been steeped in the theory of the deck (and, indeed, of the format) for the whole time, since I've been one of the driving forces in the thread. Nic Fit is, in my opinion, a very theoretically-grounded deck. It plays so many weird cards and adopts so many odd lines of play that it can't be anything but. It's not like Stoneblade where your decision tree is literally "Do I have Stoneforge? If yes, I win. If no, I lose. If yes and they kill it, I lose. If yes and I protect, I win." You have to understand the WHY of the obscure, strange card choices. If you don't, you'll never be able to make a proper sideboard, you won't know how to sideboard what and when, and you won't know what lines of play to adopt when.

The other issue with Nic Fit IMO is that it's a Therapy deck at its core. Therapy is one of the single hardest cards to play in the format, and I think that it's actually used most fully in Nic Fit, although Hollywood would probably smack me for saying that. Something like Dredge (including Manaless), generally only uses Therapy as anti-hate option. They think, okay, what hate does this guy have, or, okay, how does my opponent win the game right now, before I kill him? And then they base their line off of that. In Nic Fit, we're actively using Therapy to shape the entire flow of the game, because our game LASTS more than 3 turns (ideally). Dredge cares about the "now." We care about both the "now" AND the "then." Skillful Therapy is critical to Nic Fit, and being able to play Therapy, by its very nature, is something that takes a lot of time, practice, and groundwork in the history of and trends happening within the metagame as a whole. Most people don't have the time, energy, drive, or intellect to master Therapy the way as is needed to play Nic Fit effectively.

Furthermore, again (as with all of this, this is purely my opinion), the smarter you are, the friendlier you tend to be when dealing with equals. I will be the absolute first to admit that I can be a haughty, self-righteous, arrogant prick. I have an ego the size of Alaska, and I'm not afraid to demonstrate that in public, which can occasionally be problematic (to say nothing of embarrassing). But, due to the nature of Nic Fit, I think that this thread attracts people like me. We are, in many ways, the elite of the format. And elite are nothing if not courteous to their own. For example, I will bend over backwards to help those who I perceive as my equals, and those who I can see are trying their hardest. I think that has a LOT to do with the friendly atmosphere in this thread, honestly.

We're the best. We know it. We just have to make the rest of the world understand it, and that's not something that any one of us is going to do alone =)

sup bro ! :D

i was just trolling there, but indeed I believe Nic Fit is fairly competitive vs the "DTB", except combo. But you can't have a deck having good MU vs everyone else.
It rapes RUG and Aggro more generally, it is good vs Esperblade, it can be good vs control with PW.
I mean it is fairly polyvalent.

But sure it takes some skill to push it forward Tops4/8

Let's keep working on that :D

Qweerios commented the other day about a Collective Blessing/Tokens build. It's something that occurred to me after I cracked a Blessing at my prerelease and promptly forgot about, but I've now put together a rough draft. The basic idea is to power out a giant trampler. Humility goes great w/ Blessing and Treetop Village. (Yay layers! For those who don't know: 7B sets creatures to 1/1s w/ Humility then 7C gives them +3/+3 from Collective Blessing. In the case of Village, you'll go w/ timestamp order, so you'll have yourself a couple 3/3 tramplers even w/ Humility on the board.) There's probably a few questionable choices here (Enlightened Tutor especially) but it looks fun.


3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lingering Souls

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Humility
2 Collective Blessing

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Armada Wurm
1 Primeval Titan

2 Sensei's Divining Top

O___O

That list is sexy. The only thing I'll say is that it (and every deck everywhere ever for that matter) needs more Garruk Relentless. Absurd card is absurd.

I still check in :P. My biggest gripe was that the deck could be extremely inconsistent, as it nearly requires an early Explorer, and if you don't get one off soon enough then you're left playing a high CC deck with minimal acceleration. Getting a hand along the lines of 2-3 lands, Pulse, Sigarda, Rector, Witness felt pretty common so I had to mull fairly aggressively to find the narrow band of hands that were keepable. It also seemed difficult to shove hate into the deck due to the size and required balance of the synergy engine and kill packages so it seemed limited in how to fight against the bad matchups...namely combo. You also had to rely very heavily on Deed in most matches since you give up larger single target removal packages in place of sweepers like Deed and Pulse, so not finding a Deed with your mana already established was frequently death - which, along with inconsistency of opening hands, ended another tournament.

The inconsistency also got piled on with the high late-game complexity of the deck when you're facing long tournaments and grinding matches. The game that finally make me switch was top 4 game 3 against Bant, facing down Elspeth at 7 loyalty, Jace brainstorming like mad, a bunch of tokens, a large Knight and I think Hierarchs against my very small board. I top decked a Rector and had a sac outlet to lead into many lines of play to extend the game, but ended up choosing wrongly due to fatigue and died a few turns later.

Then you have Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace...could get nasty.

I've actually thought about brewing up something using Grisly Salvage, which would almost certainly get you a Cabal Therapy in the yard and find either Rector or Explorer since you have the top 13 cards of the deck to look at now (considering it played turn 2) along with DRS as an additional accelerant...but I also just wanted a break from Nic Fit after the 10 months or so of playing it to get an alternative deck :P.

I'd love to build Scapefit though, it seems incredibly solid.

Fair enough, I suppose. I will note that I actually keep a lot of hands without Explorer, and they work out okay. There's a lot of factors involved, of course.

Also, for anyone who is interested in Korean Explorers, SCG actually has 3 in stock currently. 1 is NM, 2 are SP. Here's the link: http://sales.starcitygames.com/searc...91;1]=1&auto=Y

Kind of annoyed that they have 3 now after it took me over a year to complete my set, but meh. Good for you guys, I guess.

It's nice to see the people in this thread becoming active again (thanks to Arianrhod). Here's a little bit more to keep us going:

Concerning Recycle / Null Profusion, I don't think you need to combine it with Arena at any point in any matchup where you want this type of interaction. In case this didn't register yet, Top alone turns Recycle into a beast as it now grants two cards instead of 1, and that at any time you wish to use it or cast it. On top of that (unintended pun), it is well out of Deed range and doesn't cost any life. Nic Fit is also accustomed to having a 2-cards hand by the time it can land 6drops. It's synergy with top goes beyond the double cantrip as well, you can also respond to the "play a card" trigger of a fetchland by cracking said fetch in the advent that your top3 is not what you want, then filter your top 3 cards with the fetched land in response to your draw trigger. I think Recycle is a great find and will quickly become a staple in the Rector versions (it will in mine).

As for where Nic Fit stands in the format, I think it is where it belongs. If it were a DtB, it wouldn't be for long because it is easy to play against once you know how. Minor changes in deck construction (1-2 more basics, couple PWs here and there) and Nic Fit has a really hard time fighting fair decks, especialy those sporting counterspells because they get the last word in a control mirror. Being cold to combo and unfair decks in G1 and highly reliant on a combination of non-explosive plays from your opponent and a smooth draw from yourself is a chance we only take because we have no other choices. As I have stated before, Nic Fit is a metagame deck. It rose during the Maverick/RUG/Stoneblade era and fell during the SnT/Griselbrand era. A good Nic Fit deck is essentialy fool-proof against aggro decks, has the upper hand on control, and relies 99.9% on its sideboard for unfair matchups. It will not be a DtB before it has adequate maindeck-able tools to deal with the broken factor of the Legacy format.

A fair concession that I will make to Nic Fit is that it teaches you to be a great player. I have never been so aware of my opponent's hand, board, draws, potential plays, and my own deck before and that's, in great part, due to what Cabal Therapy requires of it's user to be effective in any deck. Akin to Death and Taxes, there is a lot of additional knowledge about the game that has to be acquired to be able to play Nic Fit successfully. I have won my last 2 tournaments (Local and GPT) with a homebrew version of Esperblade with Deathrite Shaman, and despite being my first few times on a blade deck, I made little to no missplays during my matches. I believe that my last year as a Nic Fitter has a lot to do with my lines of play as a control player because playing a Legacy game with a Nic Fit deck is like going to war with more bullets than anybody else, but having to find your gun first.

I hope Gatecrash brings some good Simic or Gruul cards and GSZ targets for Nic Fit to breakdown. Hopefully they are better than Armada Wurm.

@Arianrhod,

I know we disagree on a lot of things regarding Nic Fit but I think that 3rd Plains is really off in your Rector list. 8 Basics in a 3colored list is a lot for 6 fetches and that 3rd Plains isn't required for any card in your deck. I understand the jump from 1-2 basics of a single kind in the absence of double costed cards for consistency's sake, but that 3rd Plains would be much better off as a 4th Verdant. Additionaly, white mana in general isn't even necessary for any early plays with your list. Smart fetching will open up more early options and feed your Tops better than risking the double Plains or Plains + Forest + Therapy opener.

@Slikwilly,

Nice find! The Humility synergy with Collective Blessing and manlands is worth delving into but not what I originaly thought of as a deck. The concept of Collective Blessing in Nic Fit, I think, is to allow undercosted and effective cards to pack a Nic Fit punch. Cards like SFM, Lingering Souls, and Deathrite Shaman, which are all strong cards in their own right can now become lethal. The fact that they have inherent synergy with Nic Fit staples like Cabal Therapy, Rector, and even Diabolic Intent is what makes it a viable deck strategy. The trade-off comes with Pernicious Deed where it becomes less of a freebie. The newly discovered Recycle is also great with cards like Lingering Souls and SFM. There is also Chord of Calling as a potential replacement for GSZ but I think that's a bit far-fetched.

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

@Arianrhod,

I know we disagree on a lot of things regarding Nic Fit but I think that 3rd Plains is really off in your Rector list. 8 Basics in a 3colored list is a lot for 6 fetches and that 3rd Plains isn't required for any card in your deck. I understand the jump from 1-2 basics of a single kind in the absence of double costed cards for consistency's sake, but that 3rd Plains would be much better off as a 4th Verdant. Additionaly, white mana in general isn't even necessary for any early plays with your list. Smart fetching will open up more early options and feed your Tops better than risking the double Plains or Plains + Forest + Therapy opener.

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I'm short on time at the moment so I'm just going to respond to this quickly.

I'm actually inclined to agree with you on this. The 3rd plains was always for the double-white cards, so that if I draw a Plains in my opener or first few draws, I could still Explorer for Plains+Plains to cast one of my WW costs. However, with Elspeth moving to the sideboard (and frankly being questionable even there), that lowers my WW cost cards to the Moat, the pair of Baneslayers, the Sigarda, and the Sun Titan. That's still a large number, but Moat will likely be Rector'd, Sigarda will probably be Green Sun'd, and the other three cards aren't typically dropped early anyway.

Now, here's a question for. If I take out the 3rd plains, do you think that the 7th fetch is what the deck would want, or perhaps Karakas should be added? That obviously does nothing to alleviate the occasional white-heavy hands, but, especially with Diabolic Intent, it does improve the odds of dealing with various problems. A maindeck way, at that. I'm not sure. It's something to think about, at the very least.

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Also, because Qweerios just kicked this over into a new page, I'm going to restate that SCG has Korean Explorers if anyone is looking. Info is on the last post of the previous page. Those things are hard enough that I don't want my note about that getting lost and not seen -- I'd much rather they found their way into Nic Fitter hands =)

Edit: Also, can anyone think of any particular reason to run Null Profusion over Recycle or vise versa? I can't come up with anything. Perish won't hit it, there isn't anything like REB or Karma that is commonly played, I don't think. I might just be derping. Am I missing something? Barring outside interference, I'd say Recycle should get the nod since GG is easier than BB.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Fair enough, I suppose. I will note that I actually keep a lot of hands without Explorer, and they work out okay. There's a lot of factors involved, of course.

Also, for anyone who is interested in Korean Explorers, SCG actually has 3 in stock currently. 1 is NM, 2 are SP. Here's the link: http://sales.starcitygames.com/searc...91;1]=1&auto=Y

Kind of annoyed that they have 3 now after it took me over a year to complete my set, but meh. Good for you guys, I guess.

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Oh man, i havemy Explorers awesomely altered, but now i'm thinking about picking those up :P

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Originally Posted by Viridia

Oh man, i havemy Explorers awesomely altered, but now i'm thinking about picking those up :P

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I'm actually really sad to hear that now. You'll understand when you get your package, lol.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I'm actually really sad to hear that now. You'll understand when you get your package, lol.

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I better wait with picking up stuff 'till i get that then ;)

Also seriously thinking about picking up some Japanese Foil Rectors for 110 each.

Edit: Ah man, CFB had 5 of them on Ebay, all gone now >.>

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Originally Posted by Viridia

I better wait with picking up stuff 'till i get that then ;)

Also seriously thinking about picking up some Japanese Foil Rectors for 110 each.

Edit: Ah man, CFB had 5 of them on Ebay, all gone now >.>

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Yeah, they've been vanishing left and right. Steve's got his three -- I've been working on other stuff for other decks, though =(

I think Deeds are my highest priority right now. With BUG and Junk both blowing up, Deed is bound to go up. I also need to try to get my Witnesses before GP Charlotte so I can get them signed by Terese Nielson =3 (Thank god I already have the Gurus for it, lol).

Nielson will be in Charlotte? O.o I might consider flying over , was thinking about doing that some time anyway :D
Been stuck on FNM Etwits myself, but i did manage to trade into a Jap Foil Deed last week :D

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Nice find! The Humility synergy with Collective Blessing and manlands is worth delving into but not what I originaly thought of as a deck. The concept of Collective Blessing in Nic Fit, I think, is to allow undercosted and effective cards to pack a Nic Fit punch. Cards like SFM, Lingering Souls, and Deathrite Shaman, which are all strong cards in their own right can now become lethal. The fact that they have inherent synergy with Nic Fit staples like Cabal Therapy, Rector, and even Diabolic Intent is what makes it a viable deck strategy. The trade-off comes with Pernicious Deed where it becomes less of a freebie. The newly discovered Recycle is also great with cards like Lingering Souls and SFM. There is also Chord of Calling as a potential replacement for GSZ but I think that's a bit far-fetched.

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Yeah, that was a rough draft. I have a slightly revised list w/ an extra Top and Recycle in it. Recycle + Flashback is pretty awesome... Fitting everything into the deck that I want is always challenging. Some days I think decks need to be 70 cards and 3-of max just so I can play everything I want :)

I went looking for sac outlets over lunch to see if there was anything worthwhile w/o requiring a swamp. Anyone ever thought about Altar of Bone? The other one that caught my eye was Jinxed Idol. I don't think you can replace Therapy since a legacy deck w/o disruption better be way faster than we are but it never hurts to see what's available. I'm hoping Orzhov gives us some sweet new toys...

Hey guys, it's Terese NielsEn, not like a Brad Nelson name ^^...

Just for curiosity, how much were the KOR Veteran ?
I got my 3 Japanese for a dollar each (directly in a Shop in Tokyo ^^), and it hurts my eyes to see it 11$ on SCG.
Not gonna get my fourth so soon I guess... :(

What is so special about Korean Explorers? I can't find a picture anywhere...

Writing this to say a word of thanks.
I'm not much of a Legacy player primarily for wallet reasons, though also because I hadn't found an interesting deck. Storm is good, just a smidge off. I love critter toolboxes and Forests and can't help it. I thought I found something worthwhile in Survival. We all know what happened to that.

With that, it's been interesting to see the evolution of Nic Fit. Why? I play German Highlander, what does that have to... wait, doesn't that look familiar? Been fun trying to pilfer ideas from Nic Fit builds because they often fit 1-1 (for example Arianrhod's Fetters inclusion - it's perfect for killing Walkers and pesky Sphinxes of the Steel Wind that were previously next to unanswerable). Found Collective Blessing myself some time ago, had to give it up because the single slot just isn't enough for overall board presence purposes, but seeing it come to fruition here due to slik's great find is awesome.

Some things from the singleton land that might be worth considering:
A lower mana curve, aggressive Rector list. In practice this just requires some small dudes that stick - I have manadorks and Carrion Feeder. Rector dies, Eldrazi Conscription, well, that was a short game. Using Rector as the combo card still allows for all the sick grindy things and general toolboxy cards like Arena and Fetters.

Garruk Relentless. Play him. He's insane. You have multiple Phyrexian Towers, Explorer-Therapy, multiple Garruks. That is, you can go for a fast Garruk very often. Also, in a Collective Blessing/Rector style list? As Hanni's avatar aptly states, "prepare your anus".

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

What is so special about Korean Explorers? I can't find a picture anywhere...

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That's basically why, lol. They're stupid rare. It's just a pimp thing. Like, when people were opening Korean Weatherlight, they weren't looking for Veteran Explorers. So a lot of them probably ended up stranded on shelves or just thrown out. As a result, they're really, really hard to find.

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

What is so special about Korean Explorers? I can't find a picture anywhere...

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man, they're not special, they are KOREAN
that's all there is to it ^^...

I have noticed that all the "nicfit" decks that have been winning and/ or placing in the top 8 of any fifty (50+) plus player Legacy events recently have all been sporting "scapefit" builds of this deck.

I note that this forum is for GBW; however, given the recent success of a seventy (70) player first place finish and a fifty-two (52) player second place finish and another top 8 in another larage scale Legacy event it seems as though scapefit is more consistent at posting better results than the more traditional nicfit version right now.

Should there now be a new form exclusively for scapefit builds or is this the appropriate forum to post and discuss same?

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

. . .Also, for anyone who is interested in Korean Explorers. . .

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Lol! Oddly enough, I have 1 Japanese Explorer from Weatherlight that I've had forever. Kinda glad I held onto it, but some times I hate that it's Japanese because I can't read it and it never fails that when an opponent says "what does that do?" that's when my brain goes dead and I get to sit there going "Um, um, um". :confused:

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Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney

I have noticed that all the "nicfit" decks that have been winning and/ or placing in the top 8 of any fifty (50+) plus player Legacy events recently have all been sporting "scapefit" builds of this deck.

I note that this forum is for GBW; however, given the recent success of a seventy (70) player first place finish and a fifty-two (52) player second place finish and another top 8 in another larage scale Legacy event it seems as though scapefit is more consistent at posting better results than the more traditional nicfit version right now.

Should there now be a new form exclusively for scapefit builds or is this the appropriate forum to post and discuss same?

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There's always been some discussion about that, but this thread for any and all variants of Nic Fit builds.

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Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney

I have noticed that all the "nicfit" decks that have been winning and/ or placing in the top 8 of any fifty (50+) plus player Legacy events recently have all been sporting "scapefit" builds of this deck.

I note that this forum is for GBW; however, given the recent success of a seventy (70) player first place finish and a fifty-two (52) player second place finish and another top 8 in another larage scale Legacy event it seems as though scapefit is more consistent at posting better results than the more traditional nicfit version right now.

Should there now be a new form exclusively for scapefit builds or is this the appropriate forum to post and discuss same?

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Most of us kinda bounce around between a few variants of the deck (BUG, GBW, punishing fire, scapeshift, 4 color, etc). While I cant speak for all of us, I like having it all one thread even though they are probably as different as some of the other decks that get different threads.


I tried brewing up a list to make use of collect blessing when it spoiled, but couldnt make anything I liked. I do think it might have some merit though and will give it another shot at some point. Elspeth, and garruk relentless should definitely be in that list somewhere. They are strong by themselves, the nuts with humility out, and even better with collective blessing. Maybe even Elspeth 2.0? but idk


I had a thought a while ago when it comes to additional sac outlets: Tabernacle. Has anyone tired this? the fact that it uses a land drop without making mana is bad but maybe its worth it for a sac outlet and a way to slow aggro decks in a big way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Now, here's a question for. If I take out the 3rd plains, do you think that the 7th fetch is what the deck would want, or perhaps Karakas should be added? That obviously does nothing to alleviate the occasional white-heavy hands, but, especially with Diabolic Intent, it does improve the odds of dealing with various problems. A maindeck way, at that. I'm not sure. It's something to think about, at the very least.

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Before I moved to rural ND and temporarily gave up magic I went with the 2 plains/1 Karakas split that you eluded to. I had a MD Sigarda and Thrun along with a SB Teeg to get utility myself as well as being able to legend rule the opponents (we have more virtual Karakas w/witness) and mise vs. Emrakul, etc.

I agree with Qweerios on Recycle. I used to play that in Combo Elves and thought it was solid.

That being said, since I am still farting around with it I have been trying some of the blue powerhouse enchantments. Future Sight is just so good with Top. Decree of Silence has been pretty awesome as well. The mana cost is is hefty but Rectoring it into play has been nice. Has anybody else experimented with this?

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

A fair concession that I will make to Nic Fit is that it teaches you to be a great player. I have never been so aware of my opponent's hand, board, draws, potential plays, and my own deck before and that's, in great part, due to what Cabal Therapy requires of it's user to be effective in any deck. Akin to Death and Taxes, there is a lot of additional knowledge about the game that has to be acquired to be able to play Nic Fit successfully. I have won my last 2 tournaments (Local and GPT) with a homebrew version of Esperblade with Deathrite Shaman, and despite being my first few times on a blade deck, I made little to no missplays during my matches. I believe that my last year as a Nic Fitter has a lot to do with my lines of play as a control player because playing a Legacy game with a Nic Fit deck is like going to war with more bullets than anybody else, but having to find your gun first.

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I would want to agree with Qweerios on this! (: Thanks to the experience in playing therapy in nic fit, I always jam 2 copies of it into any deck with B and creatures



@Arianrhod
Secondly, I want to thank this dude for guiding me along with nic fit! I am still playing scapewish to great results still but people have learnt to play around me and thus I am forced to play tighter.

Edit: Because I spelled thank as tank >_>