Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Not necessarily. No one playing in a SCG use graveyard hate, or at least very little
Printable View
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Not necessarily. No one playing in a SCG use graveyard hate, or at least very little
Hello everyone,
Just got home from a team legacy event with a 93 player turnout (31 teams). My team didn't do too well but I just wanted to share my individual games using LED Dredge. Here's the list I played:
Mainboard (60)
Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge From Below
Artifacts (4)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Creatures (21)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
3 Ichorid
1 Griselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Spells (19)
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Dread Return
Lands (12)
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Sideboard (15)
3 Firestorm
3 Pithing Needle
3 Nature's Claim
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Rd 1 Sneaky Show 2-1 (Team 0-1)
Won game 1 even though I mulled down to 3 with Faithless Looting, Breakthrough, and a Land. Lost game 2 because I kept a slow hand with Nature's Claim for Grafdigger's Cage that didn't show up. Won game 3 even though I misplayed with choosing what to discard via Therapy. Opponent had 2 Griselbrands, 1 Sneak Attack, 1 Intuition, 1 Petal, and Lands but I named Intuition instead of Sneak Attack. Good thing my zombies got there before he could assemble his combo.
Rd 2 Elves 1-1 (Team 0-1-1)
Won game 1 with Flayer and a 10/10 Troll. Lost game 2 because I made a sideboard error boarding in Chain of Vapor (even though I made use of the Vapor/Therapy trick). Game 3 ended in a draw with the last 5 turns and me getting rid of some elves with Firestorm and a stalemate between a 20+/20+ scavenging ooze + some elves and a 15/15 Troll + some zombies.
Rd 3 UWR Delver 2-0 (Team 0-1-2)
No RIP means an easy win for dredge. Easier when your opponent mulls to 5 cards in game 2.
Rd 4 D&T 2-0 (Team 1-1-2)
No RIP means an easy win for dredge. Easier with Iona in game 2.
Rd 5 MUD 0-2 (Team 1-2-2)
Game 1 and 2 were lost due to Trinisphere. I learned that you still need to pay 3 mana even though you use the alternate casting cost of a 4CMC spell (Dread Return). Misplayed on game 2 when I used Therapy on turn 1 and named Trinisphere and opponent reveals 2 Grafdigger's Cage, then he top decks Trinisphere and casts it on his turn. Lesson learned the hard way.
Rd 6 Shardless BUG 2-0 (Team 1-3-2)
My last opponent doesn't know anything about dredge so it was another easy win even though she had a Nihil Spellbomb and Meddling Mage for Dread Return on game 2.
Final standing
Individual 4-1-1
Team 1-3-2
Hey, great that you played dredge! Also, the converted mana cost is still 4, but if there is a cost without mana involved, the mana cost is considered to be 0. Too bad, even if the alt. Cost would be sacrificing all your permanents, the mana cost is still 0. Not really in proportion, right? ;-)
Hi everyone!
I sold my old deck (Goblins) to buy a Dredge deck (I love it :D). I've been testing for a few days with this list...
//Lands
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
//Utilities
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
//Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
//Sideboard
SB: 4 Lotus Petal
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 City of Brass
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
When you want to include Nature's Claim / Firestorm + City of Brass, what do you take away from main deck? I've the same question when I side in Lotus Petal xD. Thanks for your help. Regards.
One thing you can try, outside of MU-specific plans, is to take out the "all-in" cards (LED and Breakthrough) for the grindier ones that come in. Nature's Claim won't do anything if you LED or Breakthrough your hand away just before a Rest In Peace lands.
Taking out the LED and Breakthrough lets you play with a smaller graveyard, force them to play the Rest In Peace, then you can destroy the Rest In Peace and rebuild with whatever's left.
I hadn't thought about that! xD. Thanks for your help!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
IMO it's a good plan to grind out a MiraclesOpponent with a more conservative style of playing. They don't have a fast clock, so you can dredge some stuff, hardcast some stuff, force them to RiP, and then explode. Coliseum may be your best friend in this MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by cronos
I've always had a hard time against Miracles with dredge. It seems to get a little bit better if I play Ingot Chewer & Wispmare over Nature's Claim. They just save the counters for the claim and then lock me under CB/Top. Anyone else have this problem?
Yeah, sometimes they have everything, but how often do they board out CB? I tend to board 1-2 Wispmares in ADDITION to Claims against them to overload their hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
It just made 11th.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Hey guys. Played in a small 12-people 4-rounds tournament in my local store. I was tired of being fair with Canadian, so I thought I could give my LED Dredge a spin.
List:
Lands [13]
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
Creatures [24]
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
Spells [23]
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
Sideboard [15]
3 Nature's Claim
2 Wispmare
2 Ingot Chewer
1 City of Brass
4 Firestorm
2 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
My list is pretty standard, and my sideboard is a test. I haven't been happy with any DR-targets, aside from Elesh Norn, which can wipe the board even if answered in time.
I went 3-1, and matches as following:
R1: UWr Miracles (2-0)
Dice: him.
G1: Hand (7): Street Wraith, GGT, Bridge, Mana Confluence, Mana Confluence, Breakthrough, Narcomoeba. Not a bad hand, but not an awesome hand. He starts with Fetch -> Go. I just DDD my GGT. He plays another fetch, crack them both and cast Counterbalance. I cycle Street Wraith EOT, which finds me a Stinkweed Imp and Ichorid. I trigger Ichorid, dredge off Stinkweed Imp, finding one more Stinkweed Imp and blanks. I play Mana Confluence into Breakthrough, he flips the Counterbalance and shows Snapcaster Mage. He doesn't have the Force of Will and I just rip his hand apart with Cabal Therapies, leaving him down to 2 lands and one Entreat the Angels, while I have 8 Zombies and 2 Ichorids on standby for next turn.
Sideboarding: -3 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -1 Golgari Thug +3 Nature's Claim +2 Wispmare
G2: Hand (5): Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Gemstone Mine, Faithless Looting, Ichorid. I had to mulligan twice, and this one is very risky, as I need to find a dredger in three cards (1 for the draw step, 2 from looting). He starts with the famous Fetch -> Tundra -> SDT. I draw Cephalid Coliseum, play Gemstone Mine and cast Faithless Looting. He tanks for a while, but let it resolve, I draw another Lion's Eye Diamond and a Golgari Grave-Troll. Then I play Lion's Eye Diamond and he misplays again by FoWing one. I drop the other two, and flashback my Looting and find 2 Narcomoebas and 2 Bridges from Below, as well as 2 Therapies. I name Rest in Peace and hit, then I name Swords to Plowshares that I saw from the previous Therapy. He durdles for a while with SDT, but can't seem to find Terminus or Rest in Peace. He swords one of my Ichorids, but concedes when he's at 5 life.
R2: Shardless BUG (2-0)
Dice: him.
G1: Hand (7): Gemstone Mine, FL, Breakthrough, Stinkweed, Thug, LED, Bridge. This one was pretty basic. He started with Underground Sea into Deathrite Shaman. I start with 12 tokens in the battlefield, after discarding his Toxic Deluge, Brainstorm and Abrupt Decay from his hand.
Sideboarding: -4 Lion's Eye Diamond +1 City of Brass +2 Dread Return +1 Elesh Norn
G2: Hand (7): M. Confluence, G. Mine, G. Mine, GGT, S. Wraith, Elesh Norn, C. Study. A pretty average hand, but I keep because of Street Wraith. He starts again with Underground -> Deathrite Shaman. I draw another GGT, play Careful Study and draw another C. Study + blank, while bin both GGTs. His turn is Fetch, Brainstorm off Sea, return 2 and crack fetch for Bayou, pass. He tries to eat one GGT in my upkeep, but I Street Wraith in response, finding me one Narcomoeba and one Dread Return. I play Careful Study in my main phase, he doesn't have the FoW, and I manage to find another Narcomoeba and two Bridges, while discarding GGT and Elesh Norn. I sacrifice one with Therapy and name Toxic Deluge (pretty much the only card that could cost me the game) but he doesn't have it. I use the two tokens and the second Moeba to Dread Return Elesh Norn, and he concedes.
R3: Elves (0-2).
Dice: me, but I let him play. This guy usually rocks Miracles, and DDD is fine in that matchup.
G1: Hand (7): Gemstone Mine, Cephalid Coliseum x2, Careful Study, Golgari Thug, Ichorid x2. A really good hand to setup a turn 2 Coliseum. He starts with Fetch -> Forest -> Deathrite Shaman and I sigh. I play Careful Study and find no other dredger. I bin Thug and Ichorid. He plays Quirion Ranger, Gaea's Cradle, tap for 2 mana. He eats Thug, untaps his DRS by bouncing the forest and eat the Ichorid. I draw another non-dredger and concede.
Sideboarding: -3 Breakthrough -4 Lion's Eye Diamond -1 Ichorid +4 Firestorm +2 Dread Return +1 Elesh Norn, +1 City of Brass
G2: Hand (6): Gemstone Mine, Stinkweed Imp x2, GGT, Faithless Looting, Careful Study. This time I'm on the play, and begin with Looting, drawing Dread Return and Cephalid Coliseum, bin Imp and GGT. He starts with Fetch -> Forest -> Deathrite again. I dredge two Narcomoebas, one Ichorid and all four Bridges, after playing Careful Study, but no Cabal Therapy. I can't Dread Return because I only have two creatures in play. I pass. He plays Nettle Sentinel off Forest, Gaea's Cradle, tap for 2 mana. One mana for Hetirage Druid, float one. Use Heritage's ability, getting to 4 mana on pool. Casts GSZ -> Scavenging Ooze, one mana floating. Cast Crop Rotation, sacrificing Gaea's Cradle into another Gaea's Cradle, tap for four mana, eat 3 Bridges and one Ichorid. Christ, what a play. I dredge again, find my third Narcomoeba, but can't find Elesh Norn to Dread Return, so I concede.
I'm a little stunned after this round, that was awesome.
R4: Esper Blade (2-0)
Dice: me.
G1: Hand (7): G. Mine, Cephalid Coliseum, LED, Thug, Ichorid, Breakthrough x2. Awesome hand, but need to chain dredge off my Thug. I'm on the play and start with G. Mine into LED, resolves. Breakthrough, crack LED in response, resolves. I dredge 30 cards deep, finding all my Ichorids, 1 Narcomoeba, 1 Bridge and 1 Cabal Therapy. I blind Therapy into Brainstorm and miss, but he doesn't have much aside from Swords to Plowshares and Stonforge Mystic. His only play is to try StP one of my three Ichorids that I triggered. I dredge another two Bridges off my draw step, attack for 8 (1 Zombie from previous turn +2 Ichorids), and end my turn with 7 tokens + 3 Ichorids to return. He plays Stoneforge Mystic, fetching Batterskull, but does the math and concedes.
Sideboarding: nothing (I usually try to race Esperblade in G2. They use a variety of hate consisting in Rest in Peace, Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical Extraction, making boarding anti-hate difficult).
G2 Hand (7): LED x3, Faithless Looting x3, Stinkweed Imp. As soon as I saw this hand, I started laughing non-stop. This had never happened to me.
He starts with Underground Sea into Brainstorm, and pass. I draw Gemstone Mine, to make the rape even worse, and hardcast everything. He doesn't have a Force of Will, neither a Surgical Extraction. I dredge something like 40 cards, and make more than 10 Zombies. He concedes, and shows the top of his library, a Rest in Peace he had hidden with Brainstorm to cast it next turn.
All in all, a fun tournament. I got 4th place, and won 40$ credit on the store, which is little, but allowed me to buy four foil Street Wraiths that I was looking for, and some cards for my Pauper deck.
Guys, the only hate I've seen lately is Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman. Both pretty manageable. I think it's time to play Dredge again to net some wins.
Great report!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I am kinda new to Dredge and I was curious as to when you board lands in and why. I am playing a fairly stock list, like what Damon Whitby played to get 11th at the SCG event this past weekend. Any help with when to sideboard those in as well as just general sideboard advice would be wonderful.
Since when is my list stock? From what I get on these forums, most play things very different from my choices. Mine just has the best results in money tournaments. I posted a guide for it some pages back. You can find it by searching my latest posts. It will hurt you, however, if you regard it as canon. You must find your own adjustment to it when factoring in which game, who is on the play, actual hate vs. predicted hate, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by DredgingLoam
This is my current SB:
3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Wispmare
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Firestorm
1x Dread Return
1x Ashen Rider
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
I will admit that the Mindbreak Traps are more metagame dependent, but if you're seeing Storm and Belcher roaming about I always like having it. There is no shame in admitting they're usually a turn faster in general.
The 2 Ancient Grudge I've been liking a lot. They're usually for cards like Batterskull and Jitte which are prevalent in legacy. They're relevant because the Batterskull can be bounced back to destroy our bridges and everyone knows how devastating Jitte can be if it accumulates counters. In this way it alleviates a lot of pressure and buys us more time. Aside from that they're obviously OP against decks like MUD, Affinity, etc.. and take care of other troublesome permanents like Ensnaring Bridge, tormond's cryp, Relic of progenitus, by forcing them to pop them early etc.
My normal boarding plan game 2 is to generally board in the following:
2x Firestorm
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Chain of Vapor
What normally comes out is the 3 Putrid Imp (I believe them to be easiest cut postboard outside of something like Breakthrough or LED), 1 Golgari Thug, and a couple of LEDs as they're most "all in". I generally like to keep all Ichorids as I want the ability to hit them early in the game to start generating any type of board presence with zombies as soon as I can.
The Firestorm will help me start my engine regardless of counter-magic. There is additional value if I get to remove any type of pressure like an early delver, Stoneforge Mystic, and of course using it to destroy the DRS scum! The card has been finally pulling its weight for me. The grudges again serve as an answer to most generic gravehate (still giving you outs to Graffdiggers Cage) and then finally the 2x Chain of Vapor which act more as a catch all type of answer. I liked the idea of having extra outs to Graffdiggers as that card was what hurt most.
I like this setup because I can more accurately attack game 3 by either keeping the Chains of Vapor (more for something like Cage) or removing them and going with the Wispmare (more for something like RIP) and adjust accordingly. This plan covers most angles and I believe it to be the most effective way of minimizing dead dredges. Remember dredging into cards like Firestorm and Chain of vapor get you no where as they have no value there (at least Ancient Grudge is great!).
So if we look at the stats of the cards were taking out game 2:
3x Putrid Imp (Continuous Discard Outlet that cannot get spell Pierced, Black Creature for Ichorid, Flying beater, can be sacrificed to Therapy & Dread Return)
1x Golgari Thug (My version runs 12 Dredgers so going down to 11 in what we expect to be a longer grindier affair is fine especially if we get to flashback Faithless Looting as the game on).
2x LED (1 time Discard Outlet, Generates 3 mana allowing for Faithless Looting Flashback or to pay for soft counters like Daze and spell pierce which is a lot less frequent).
Normally when these cards get dredged the only real dead card would be the LEDs which again makes them a good cut postboard. Depending on the opponent you will most likely go ahead and bench them all, primarily against decks packing RIP as it becomes very easy to get blown out by this card. The Putrid Imp are least impactful as outlets behind Careful Study, Faithless Looting, LED and once they're dredged they only really serve as Ichorid food of which there was plenty so again this was another smart cut, and the 1 Dredger is simply a shave technique. Because I'm already currently running 12 dredgers simply cutting down to 11 is fair and I expect games 2 and 3 to go longer which means I'll have more chances to dredge over the course of the game.
The whole point is to not stray too far away from the game plan. And you only really have 4 "dead" cards postboards as Ancient Grudge is completely fine in the bin. I would keep a hand that was solid even if it doesn't have any of our anti hate as it means that if they kept anything that doesn't interact we will just roll them over once again. It really is game dependent at the end of the day, but you have to be smart about it as well and read your opponents weaknesses. i.e. If he allowed you to resolve a careful study then most likely he has nothing to stop you because that would be the spell to counter given the choice etc..
For me, my usual sideboard plan is to take out a Dread Return, Griselbrand, and Flayer then put in 3 answers in the form of Chain, Claim, or Firestorm. I don't like to take out LED since it helps in refilling your graveyard by going off as soon as you get rid of the hate or even win before they find hate by dredging through your library and generating a zombie army. I also don't like to board in too many cards (except when I see Leyline of the Void) since it will dilute the deck.
Quick and dirty from SCGNJ.
Won my first two rounds at the Invi. Round three I get Bertoncini. We have played a hundred times and know exactly what each other is on. Game one, he mulls to nothing, and I win easily. In both games two, and game three, he has three Extractions, and three Deathrites by turn four. Without casting a cantrip, a Snapcaster, or mulliganing in either. I'd love to know the odds on that happening naturally, with 3 total Extractions, and four Deathrites. In a way, it's my fault for not pile shuffling. Even if you crush, and cut, they can easily keep all of their hate together, and hope you just cut if they hit nothing and mull. Regardless, after winning the next round, I get stomped out in Standard.
Saturday I Calosso'd. 6-0, 0-4.
My matchups on Sunday were I believe:
1. Sneak and Show(W)
2. Miracles(L)
3. Shardless(W)
4. Death and Taxes(W)
5. Lands(L)
6. Death and Taxes(W)
7. BUG Delver(W)
8. Sneak and Show(W)
9. Miracles(W)
10. Sneak and Show(W)
Highlights:
Rd 2 against Dan Musser(Winner). Game one, we run over 30 minutes. Me grinding out one creature at a time, against his CB/Top lock. He finally concedes when I start using my four useless Therapies to recur Narcos with Thug, that he can't counter,as I have three dead Ichorids in the yard with no food. Game two I have the best opening hand I have ever had. Land, LED, Petal, Loot, Bthrough, Troll, Stinkweed. He goes turn one Cage on the play, turn two RiP, turn three Counter/Top, turn four Jace.
Hmmm. So that's how that feels.
Game three I mull to nothing. At all.
Rd 4; Game one I blow him out. Game I keep a hand that's pretty safe with PImp, Bthrough, Dredger, and Decay, but only one land. He goes land, Vial, I play Pimp. He goes land, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and gives me that "GOTCHA!" look. Which, during my next upkeep, prompts me to pre-emptively call a Judge. After explaining what I intend to do to both the Judge and my opponent, it is confirmed that all of my dredges will be happening. "That just don't seem right. That a'int right" laments the opponent as he scoops up his cards.
Rd 5; Dave Long(Top8). Game one, we both keep slow hands, and he is unable to find a Bog. He gets Tabernacle, but I am able to grind him out with Ichorids, and having two lands. Game two he leads with Fetch, go. I therapy him for Crop Rotation, and see Crop, Gamble, Exploration, Manabond, lands. He Gambles for Bog on turn two, and I miss the discard. I have to go all-in on LED+Looting, and while I dredge four Trolls, I see no Narcomoebas and lose. Game three is almost exactly the same. Though I do get rid of his Crop, he has Manabond into the DD combo. I have LED+Looting, and not only hit no Narcomoebas, but no Ichorids either. The Ichorids would have done it even without the Narcos, as he had to get an untap to get the combo online, and I would have had both lethal, and a Narco to block after my next turn. We both agreed that we'd never seen anything like that before.
Rd 8; Anthony Lowry. Game one I blow him out. Game two he has the turn two Sneak on the play, turn three Grizz, draw, Emrakul. Game three, I turn one Therapy(with Petal) him for Cage, and see; Cage, Land, Preordain, Petal, Pierce, Pierce, Show. Then play LED, Coliseum. He plays Land, Petal, Petal(drawn), Preordain(bottom both),go. I activate Coliseum, and hit pretty nutty. I Therapy, which he sacs Petal to Pierce. This is then repeated. I then Dread Return Rider to hit his land, and he scoops.
Rd 9; Only interesting thing here is he mulls to four on the play. He goes Plains, go, and I think he's on D&T. He then goes Plains, go, and I KNOW he's on D&T. He scoops in response to a Therapy. Game two, he goes Tundra, Top. Awwwwww. Yooouuu. Turn two he has RiP, but I already have the Decay, and win in short order.
Rd 10; Logan Mize. Game one I blow him out. Game two, he plays land go for three turns. I can't figure out what he's playing at, but I have so much gas in my hand at this point, I'm not concerned about countermagic. I Therapy him, which he Forces. I then dredge with Study, which resolves. "I really hope you are setting me up for something, and not soft in the head", I tell him. But do not have another Therapy. My Breakthrough then resolves, and he Wishes for Rav Trap afterwards. Awwwww. Yoooouuu. Game three I mull to four on the play. Land, Loot, Troll, Bridge. He has Leyline of Sanctity, and and I found out later, no countermagic, and a turn two Grizz. My Loot resolves, which draws me LED(!), which I play, Coliseum(!!). He plays a land, Ponders, and passes. I go nuts, don't even bother to Rider his Leyline(hit his land), and put too much on the board for any draw to get him out.
Can't be too dissappointed. My two losses on Sunday couldn't have been won with play. The Invi, I would be salty about, if I had any chance in Standard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
can you post that decklist.
nice move winning on recurred narcos with sac thug
I am no expert, but there is a great guide to cabal therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...erapy-session/
the summary is, FIRST think of what card(s) you NEED them to not have...if you somehow know they have three ponders, you might still name force of will.
SECOND think of what would have convinced them to keep, rather than muligan.
I have amanaless dredge question. Here is my current list (sideboard is a bit of a mess):
Creature (44)
4x Balustrade Spy
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Street Wraith
Sorcery (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
4x Gitaxian Probe
Enchantment (4)
4x Bridge from Below
Sideboard (15)
1x Ashen Rider
4x Faerie Macabre
3x Greater Mossdog
2x Mindbreak Trap
4x Noxious Revival
1x Sickening Shoal
I am considering the transformative anti-hate sideboard of Hollywood, linked in the first post, as shown below:
4 Reverent Silence
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Noxious Revival
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Sickening Shoal
1 Forest
(4 dryad arbors in the main)
What do you all think? Also, I have considered a serra avatar or somethign simmilar, so that if i am stoped from winning after a spy combo (which entire library in graveyard) i don't automatically mill myself the next turn. I know cabal theray should keep my win safe, but am I right to worry? Also, having that lets me drop the spy to an opponenet's show and tell and win the next turn.
I picked up Dredge after a long break from it, and brought it to my local Saturday legacy. It was 12 people, four rounds, and I went 3-0-1, splitting in the finals.
I was rocking a pretty standard Quadlazor list:
4x Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed
4x Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Street Wraith
3x Pimp
4x LED
4x Faithless Looting
4x Careful Study
4x Therapy
4x Bridge
1x Dread Return
4x Coliseum
4x Gemstone
4x City of Brass
Sideboard:
3x Wispmare
2x Grudge
2x Mana Confluence
1x Dread Return
1x Iona
1x Ashen Rider
2x Firestorm
3x Mindbreak Trap
Round 1 - TES
My opponent wins the roll and opts to go first. He ponders his hand for a minute before going to 6, and I keep a 7 of City, Coliseum, Stinkweed, Putrid Imp and 3 randoms. He starts by playing a turn 1 Bloodstained Mire. I play City of Brass, Putrid Imp, and he groans. On his turn, he plays a Gemstone Mine and I put him on Storm. He passes it back and I dredge into a Stinkweed and Thug. I play LED, Coliseum, break LED for 3 red and use the Coliseum. I dredge an Ichorid, Narcomoeba and Therapy, and cast it to make a zombie. I named Dark Ritual, and he reveals 2x Lotus Petal, 2x LED, Ad Nauseam. On his turn, he plays all his artifact mana and passes. On my turn, I make an Ichorid, dredge into another Bridge and swing for 5. He scoops when I attack next turn with an army of zombies and Ichorids.
Board -3 Putrid Imp, +3 Mindbreak Trap
Game 2 he's on the play again. I mull to 6 and keep Gemstone, LED, Careful Study, Stinkweed, Street Wraith and Thug. He gets things going quick by making 12 goblins on his turn 1, so I have to catch up quickly. I go for land, LED, Careful Study, cracking for 3 red. I hit a looting in my first dredges and go on to hit 3x Bridge and 3x Narcomoeba and make 6 2/2 zombies to hold off his army of 1/1s. He swings for 9 on his turn, and I block 7 of it, netting 3 more zombies before my Bridges are exiled. On my turn, I bring back 4 Ichorids and swing with the gang.
1-0
Round 2 - Reanimator
My notes for game 1 are "Turn 1 11/11 Grave-Troll." A Therapy showed he was on Reanimator, and he can't get anything online before the Troll kills him.
Board: -2 LED, +Iona +Dread Return
Game 2, I keep something like Land, a bunch of dredgers, Iona on a mull to 6, knowing he's playing Show and Tells. He plays a Crypt, and I Therapy on my turn 1 for Entomb, but miss. Revealing Dark Ritual, Ponder, Exhume, Grislebrand, Elesh Norn. On his turn 2, he Show and Tells, putting down the Elesh Norn. Iona and Elesh trade blows for a couple of turns until he draws another Show and Tell for Grislebrand. I die pretty soon after that.
Game 3 he mulls to 6, and I keep Gemstone, Careful Study, Dread Return, Grave-Troll, Thug, Coliseum, Pimp. I play the Imp, and pass. On his turn 1 he plays a Crypt and no land. I discard the Grave-Troll, and he Surgicals it. That sets me back a bit, as I don't hit anything off the Thug. This goes on for a few turns as I'm beating for 2 and he draws no lands. I hit an Ichorid after a couple turns and he cracks his crypt. My hand at that point was Street Wraith, 2x Stinkweed, with a coliseum and Gemstone. I use the Imps and the Wraith to get Threshold for the Coliseum and the game is over pretty quick from there.
2-0
Round 3 - BUG Pod
I lose the roll, and keep a 7 with Grave Troll, Street Wraith and Pimp. On his turn 1 he makes a Deathrite, and passes. I play the Imp, and dredge the Troll in response to his Deathrite. I hit some business, and Therapy on my turn for Birthing Pod, hitting 2 and revealing Deathrite, Eternal Witness, 2 lands. His Deathrite keeps me off my Ichorids for some turns, but zombies get there.
Board: -2 LED -2 Ichorid -Dread Return -Thug, +2 Mana Confluence +2 Ancient Grudge +2 Firestorm
I keep an iffy six of 2x City, Careful Study, Stinkweed, Thug, Narco. He's on the play and leads with a Trop. On my turn, he Force's my Careful study. He Brainstorms on my end step, and looks displeased with his draws. He plays a Therapy for LED and misses, and a land that isn't a fetch, so I'm pretty sure he's brainstorm locked for another turn. I don't draw anything useful and spend the next couple turns playing and beating with the Narcomoeba and Thug. He keeps drawing mana, and I'm able to get some dredging online after taking a lot of damage to playing dudes. I whittle him down to 5, then finally hit some Ichorids to clean up the job.
3-0
The other 3-0 and I decide to prize split, netting us each $45 store credit. But we decide to play it out for fun, and to test our matchups.
Round 4 - Elves!
I win the die roll and know what he's playing, so I'm able to hit with a Therapy on Glimpse of Nature. He reveals a bunch of elf dudes and a Green Sun. He plays a Wirewood Symbiote on his turn 1, and I do some unfair things on my turn 2. Game 1 is over pretty quickly.
Board: -3 Pimp, +3 Mindbreak Trap
Game 2 he isn't able to get an engine going for a couple turns, but I don't have much either. I'm not able to do much besides Mindbreak Trap a Natural Order and get trampled to death by Elves.
Game 3 I kept a hand with Grave-Troll and 2x Street Wraith. I decide to go the DDD route, and pass on the play. He plays a Deathrite on his turn 1, but I figure it's all going to be okay. On my turn, I draw and discard the Troll, passing it back. He goes to remove my Troll on his turn, but I have the tech! He's surprised, but attempts to then Surgical the Troll, only to find I have yet another answer. Things are looking good for me with two draws on the stack. I start to dredge and hit 3 lands, Mindbreak Trap, LED and Faithless Looting. Oh well. I continue to hit bad luck for a couple of turns while he makes an army of little green men. I had a Mindbreak Trap for a Natural Order, but it turns out he didn't need it as he slams down the Hoof next turn and swings in.
I couldn't feel too bad after having a pretty good run of luck with most of my prior dredges during the night. It feels like a super good time to be coming back to the deck. Some people seem to have lost respect for the deck and are skimping on hate. I'm looking forward to putting the fear back in them.
As far as the board goes right now, I'm feeling pretty comfortable with this set up. There's a fair amount of combo in my meta, so having Mindbreak Traps is pretty nice. I've been switching back and forth between Grudges and Ingot Chewers as the artifact hate, but definitely appreciate the flexibility of Grudge. Not sure I want to drop the Confluences as it helps smooth out the amount of games we can hit 2 mana. I might end up tinkering with some ideas over the next couple weeks and come back with updates.
I am a recent dredge convert, and have built the manaless dredge deck. I am reading every article and watching every video I can find on manaless dredge. I read your article in "Cutting Room Floor" as well. Thank you for this primer as well as the former article.
What I would like is a sideboarding guide that tells me what cards to remove when I bring in the sideboard cards. I don't want to ruin the main deck by replacing the wrong cards after game one.
The build I am starting with:
Creature [44]
4 Ichorid
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Griselbrand
Instant [4]
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
Sorcery [8]
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
Enchantment [4]
4 Bridge from Below
Sideboard [15]
1 Forest
3 Nature's Claim
3 Noxious Revival
2 Sickening Shoal
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Reverent Silence
I look forward to your reply.
Thank you,
Bookwizard
Folks,
There is actually a forum designated specifically for Manaless Dredge in the Established Forum. Any questions, feel free to post them there and I can answer them for you.
Thanks!
Nice work on the top 8 Parcher.
is there any interest in treasure cruise or fatesticher in the main?
i look at fatestitcher and think of synergy with cabal therapy, untapping our lands or tap a hatebear or any pertmanent that threatens our combo,, or when we crack led to activate coliseum with 2 more blue floating. etc...
treasure cruise just seems like a big commitment. anyone playtest it?
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber
Not a bad weekend. Beat Infect, Lands, Miracles, 2X Deathblade, Elves, U/R Delver. Lost to Sneak and Manaless, and drew with BUG.
MD Darkblast worked perfectly. Won both Game 2's against U/R and Elves, and Game 1 against Infect because of it. Also beat a Deathblade deck that for some reason ran Cage over Surgical, due to hardcasting Thugs and Narcos, and DBlasting them to trigger Bridges. Against the other Blade deck, it protected my single Ichorid from a game-winning Plow.
Uncertain about the Seizes. If more Delve cards become commonplace, might have to run anti-hate there. Depends on the saturation of Combo in the upcoming metagame.
Not much else in the way of highlights. Lost Game three to Sneak due to a first turn Seize allowing a second turn Breakthrough. He Brainstorms in response, but I then empty his hand, and force hime to shuffle due to discarding Emrakul. He blind rips Cage, and the Therapies had eaten up all my threats. Whatever. Same deal with the Game 2 against Manaless. I saw one total dredger in 27 cards. So I lose to varience. Part of the deck.
Only other interesting thing was my Round Nine match. I'll paraphrase the dialogue.
GFab: Hi, I'm Gerrard.
Me: Hi, I'm Damon. So, draw?
GFab: No.
Me: No? Uhh...we're first and second seed?
GFab: I know.
Me: So.......
GFab: So let's play.
Me(I know he's on BUG, with like two hate pieces): You got it buddy.(proceed to shuffle up)
Judge(grabs slip): I'll take this. Oh. What's going on?
GFab: We're playing it out.
Judge: Really? Well OK then.(sits down to watch)
Friend of Gerrard: Hey. We're going to get food. You coming?
GFab: We're playing it out.
Friend of Gerrard: Uh....you are playing for seeding? You'll still be in second or third with a draw.
GFab: And what if I want to play through the final?
Friend of Gerrard: Uhh......OK.(sits down to watch)
GFab: High Roll?(rolls a 2)(I roll a 16)
GFab: Oh. Never mind then. Want to draw?
Me(fuming, but exhausted): Sure. Fine.
Judge: What a dick move. Sign the slip.(we do) Let me get your decks so we can check before Top8.
GFab: No. I'm going to eat.
Judge: Uhhh, well we can't wait for you to eat. We want them done as soon as possible.
GFab: You gonna be responsible for it when I leave? No? Then too bad.
Judge: Ok. Wait here. I'll get the Head Judge to discuss this with you.
GFab: Get fucked, nerd. (walks out)[I might have editorialized that last line. But that was the intent of his statement.]
What a tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
I wouldn't have accepted his offer after the roll and would have stared him stone-cold in the face after drilling him with a horde of zombies.
Grats on the top 8 dude.
I'm going to try the Dark Blast MD. I'm always a fan of having different angles. I still like having a DR main for that reason, but I'm going to try the extra land in its stead.
I noticed you only have a singleton Ashen Rider as a DR target. Do you worry that because you only have 1 DR in the whole 75 that it wont be recurred a good number of times? Also do you not like Iona? I find it a house against a span of common decks like Burn, Elves, storm variants, etc..
The only reason I run a Rider as a target is for Lands/Post. Since lands are the only thing I have no other way to interact with. Maze+Tabernacle is a big problem, and Chasm is unbeatable if they have anything to back it up. Even the FStorm hail mary doesn't work since Stage was printed. Having only one of each is rarely a problem, since you have to pick your spot and go all-in against these decks anyway. If one of the two ends up in the last few cards, and they have an unbeatable board state without me hitting Rider, it's a trade-off I'm fine with. Not worth losing more slots for such fringe decks anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
I bring Rider in against Show for obvious reasons, and against Miracles when I'm not running additional discard in the SB. That's it. Though there are a few more attrition-focused matchups where I will bring in the DR solo.
Against an unknown opponent on the play what's the correct line with an opening seven of coliseum, gemstone, led, imp, 2xlooting and stink imp? All in with led looting shenanigans or wait a turn for a coliseum activation? I'm thinking about bringing either led dredge or goblins to gp jersey, is it a mistake bringing led dredge to a seemingly blue infested meta?
Part of the problem here is that no two players are identical. For some reason, and I have been wrong a few times. Most control players give off a certain, vibe, much like mono-red players. A very integral part of this deck is being able to pick up tells and develop a sixth sense towards your opponents and trying to put them on a deck while they are shuffling/setting up to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
Against a totally unknown player that I have absolutely no read on. I slow roll it. Mine into Loot, see what my draw is and continue. Part of the 'x-factor' to your question is we do not know what the two cards off the draw are. They could either vastly change how the hand is played, or be total bricks in which case you only dump one dredger. Going this Route, you also get to dredge/dig one deeper. Assuming you hit nothing of the Faithless for a Second Dredge, you can natural dredge, and see if you hit anything. If you hit something good(more dredgers), I would tap the Gemstone into the second faithless. If for some reason he is a counter player, he may wait to here to counter your spell(I have seen it happen), if that is the case run out the LED and try to go off with the coliseum. If you resolve the faithless, you should be able to just go nuts, and assuming you are running a combo finish, you can end the game on the spot on turn 2 hopefully as long as dredges go your way, and if you cannot factually win the game, typically you can get into such a position were you lock out your opponent or strip anything relevant from their hand.
Other players may greatly differ from my playstyle, but that is one of the things I love about this deck, outside of a few select instances, playstyle can be taken into account and you can play how it feels right to you and not just 'cause reasons'.
~Nox
Hi guys, just got top 8 at Ovino 9 (476 players) with this list:
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Loothing
3 Breakthrought
3 Street Wraith
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 City of Brass
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Wispmare
2 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
I wrote a detailed report on Tipo1.it (in italian), if you have any question im here :)
PS: a big thanks for all of you, this thread helped me so much building my 75 ^^
How did the street wraiths work out for you? Since you only run 1 Grisel & 2 DR, I guess you go for the grindy way instead of the combo-route, I presume? And haven't you missed the Probes? I'm asking this because I usually play the quadlaser list.
I never had a chance to fizzle a DRS using SW, but many times felt needed for get ichorid online.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
Imho you have to play at least 3 imp/SW in order to play ichorid consistently, and i feel like imp is really not worth at all in LEDWith, is too slow compared to the other 57.
And for the DR, well, imho you dont have to play a second target, if you get a grisel online you can just drop 4 therapy and let them have a single topdeck, most likely you will win anyway.
Probe would have been great, but is just a card you cant play over a card you have in the 75 imho, let's say you have to make good reads on opponent hand by yourself, because SW give you a solution to a problem, GP give you information you can still be able to get.
So, if it was up to you, what would you replace Imp with? You can't let the black creature count to low because of Ichorid, so I guess PImp is the least of all evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
You have 3 slot, you can chose between:Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
- Street Wraith
- Second Griselbrand
- Mono Phantasmagorian
- Four Ichorid
- Maindeck Ashen Rider
And imho 3 SW is the best choice, maybe 2 SW and 2nd Grisel.
Any chance of a sideboarding bit on all these Petals and Decays?Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Scroll back a few pages:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Dredge/page161
That gerrard comment was hysterical. I would've bashed his face in after that bullshit. Clearly he has never seen pulp fiction.
After trying Parcher's SB I can now say that Lotus Petal is pretty damn sweet. idk about the 2 Thougseizes as I think i would rather them be another DR and an Iona only because my meta has burn and elves in it (although I guess thats what the 3 firestorms are about lol).
Lotus Petal keeps you on parity game 2 and helps you play around Daze. Under better circumstances they can tap out on their turn 1 casting anything and on your turn barring a FOW can drop a land and a petal --> Careful Study/faithless into Breakthrough and close the game out right then before they can really interact. They also speed you up against faster combo decks where Putrid Imp is too slow.
I'm liking the Abrupts as well except for weird spots when Thalia hits play. :/
This was the first time I tried the Seizes, and they were just OK. My thinking was, I needed something additional against Storm and Reanimator, since DR/Rider does very little. They also should be excellent against Miracles, and they fit the slot for anti-Extraction cards, being another way to pre-emptively deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Replacing them with another DR package is great against Combo, but almost worthless against Reanimator, since not only does Norn shut all DRs off, they can reanimate your Iona if you can't. Probably a wash against Miracles, since Iona shuts them down, and Rider gives you the turn or two you need to race. Probably a little worse against Extraction. Obviously doesn't stop it, but does force them to reevaluate their targets. A field with a significant Deathblade and Reanimator presence would be bad, but otherwise it seems fine.