[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by Fjaulnir

Question to other poxers here.



I have recently started playing these Japanese lists which feel very powerful:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15182&d=292071&f=LE

but the other day I was wondering, could there be any merit to replacing 1 (or both) of the Phyrexian Totems with Serum Powder(s)?

Card advantage is very important in Pox so not mulliganning too often is key. Getting free mulligans makes the threshold of mulling questionable hands much lower.

It only makes colorless instead of black, and doesn't attack, but it didn't happen *that* often I got to attack with it anyway. In last night's games I maybe only attacked with it 2-3 times, whereas it got tapped for mana 10x as much.

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3-Mana Fractured Powerstone would be a bad card in basically every single matchup. Remember that you have no card that costs more than 4 so it's strictly worse than a land in every situation. (And in many spots in this deck it is slightly worse, e.g. Disk kills it, doesn't interact with Crucible, gets countered by Nether Void etc)

Serum Powder gives you the following scenarios (this discussion assumes you are looking at a 7 card hand but it applies at any point in the mulligan process).
a) GOOD: You have a bad combination of 6 other cards plus Serum Powder. Serum Powder gives you a free mulligan.
b) BAD: You have a good combination of 6 other cards plus Serum Powder. You like all the cards in your hand except Powder. Either you keep (effectively 6 cards because Powder doesn't do anything) or you get another random 7 cards

The reason why e.g. Vintage Dredge plays Serum Powder (or at least has played it in the past, I don't keep up with vintage) is because
1) Situation 'a' happens a lot when 'a bad combination of 6 other cards' roughly translates to 'any combination of cards without Bazaar of Baghdad in it'
2) You don't care about situation 'b' because Bazaar is so strong (and your gameplan revolves around discarding your hand, so you don't care about the loss of card advantage of having a dead Powder in your hand)

In Pox what I anticipate by playing Powder is:
I) Situation 'a' happens a non-zero amount, but many times only by virtue of the fact you have Serum Powder in your hand and therefore the amount of playable cards to consider in the rest of your hand has decreased (e.g. You have 1 land 5 Nonlands and Serum Powder: While you are glad to have Serum Powder in this instance it is a bit of a Red Herring because this would likely be an acceptable hand if Serum Powder was just another land instead)
II) Because the power level of cards in this deck is relatively even it does not seem likely that in situation 'b' you have many hands where "This 6-cards-plus-blank is better than an average 7, I will choose not to use Serum Powder" ends up happening.

Therefore by putting Serum Powder in your deck you would (mostly) end up indiscriminately using it every time it's in your opener and just diluting your deck with blank topdecks. The premier complaint about this deck from a broader strategic perspective is 'I have stripped my opponents resources but they end up topdecking their way out of it before I can end the game'. Suggesting the replacement of what is potentially a 5/5 attacker for just a mana rock therefore seems quite poor to me.

I agree that Phyrexian Totem doesn't look very good on paper but there are other options you could consider instead, you don't necessarily need a card that taps for mana, especially when you have no card costing more than 4 and your deck already has 27 lands in it.

Yeah I can agree with anything you posted really :-) it was worth a shot I guess

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Originally Posted by Fjaulnir

I have recently started playing these Japanese lists which feel very powerful:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15182&d=292071&f=LE

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hmm..27 lands seems a lot especially when you're also running 4 rituals..i'd probably cut a land, most likely the Sanitarium to free up a slot..

Very vulnerable to blood moon.

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

hmm..27 lands seems a lot especially when you're also running 4 rituals..i'd probably cut a land, most likely the Sanitarium to free up a slot..

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With cutting maindeck Chains (with miracles gone & the format speeding up a few turns on average), I've replaced Sanitarium with Sea Gate Oracle already as allowing your opponent to filter as well is just meh...

I know some people here said it did nothing when I mentioned it some months(?) ago, but for me it's been gas every time I had it. Got to draw 4-5 extra cards against RUG Delver yesterday, admittedly that's a good matchup already but it's still able to seal that game without leaving anything to luck.



I'll probably end up with a hybridisation of the above and this:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=6384&d=236777&f=LE

which was the list I was playing before the Japanese duy's list started drawing my interest (but with 4 fetches + Top for Tombstalker synergy, over 4 swamps + 1 of the Scrolls)



So a first step would probably indeed be -1 land (-1 Chains) for +2 Trinisphere, with Combo being dominant for the time being since the banning of Miracles.
Bitterblossoms in the SB can go now too :wink: and adding a 2nd Tabernacle in the SB against elves/dnt/belcher/whatnot



I'll probably playtest this the next 10 days for a tournament early May:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta (?)
1 Sea Gate Oracle
8 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

1 Beseech the Queen
4 Dark Ritual
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nether Void
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Phyrexian Totem
1 Trinisphere

SIDEBOARD
1 Damnation (?)
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Lost Legacy
1 Necropolis Fiend
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Phyrexian Obliterator (? not yet sure; Tombstalker seems good too as an extra nondecayable target)
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Trinisphere

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Originally Posted by Fjaulnir

for me it's been gas every time I had it. Got to draw 4-5 extra cards

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i'm glad you did mention it (and it was also in a japanese list iirc)
i am trying to get a 4 chains/anvil of bogardan list to work and 2 Geier Reach Sanitarium lets me go down to 2 anvils.

So, the thing about cutting chains is that it wasn't actually there for the miracles matchup. It helps more (in my experience) vs the bug decks (shardless and leovold) and the combo decks, such as storm and whoever wants to cheat in griselbrand. I would want it vs. elves before I sleeved it vs. miracles. I have minimal problem out advantaging people with cursed scroll, crucible, and Liliana, but that may need to change in light of where the meta is going.
Slightly unrelated note: if you're playing crucible, I absolutely recommend trying a cabal pit. It locks elves/d&t the same way you wasteland lock delver and has fantastic utility against shardless/delver decks too.
If you run enough colorless sources for sea-gate wreckage, I don't hate a couple copies of warping wail in the sb. It does quite a bit more than people expect. It has relevant modes in most matchups (kills drs very well, kills anything out of d&t, counters the turn 2 potential of sneak and show, counters a tutor out of storm or basically any of the reanimate spells, you get the picture) you don't want more than 1-2, since they're a little rough to draw later, but I'd recommend giving it a shot.

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Originally Posted by Quitrex

So, the thing about cutting chains is that it wasn't actually there for the miracles matchup. It helps more (in my experience) vs the bug decks (shardless and leovold) and the combo decks, such as storm and whoever wants to cheat in griselbrand. I would want it vs. elves before I sleeved it vs. miracles. I have minimal problem out advantaging people with cursed scroll, crucible, and Liliana, but that may need to change in light of where the meta is going.
Slightly unrelated note: if you're playing crucible, I absolutely recommend trying a cabal pit. It locks elves/d&t the same way you wasteland lock delver and has fantastic utility against shardless/delver decks too.
If you run enough colorless sources for sea-gate wreckage, I don't hate a couple copies of warping wail in the sb. It does quite a bit more than people expect. It has relevant modes in most matchups (kills drs very well, kills anything out of d&t, counters the turn 2 potential of sneak and show, counters a tutor out of storm or basically any of the reanimate spells, you get the picture) you don't want more than 1-2, since they're a little rough to draw later, but I'd recommend giving it a shot.

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I already run Cabal Pit in the above list ;) agreed on its usefulness with or without Cruible.


Thanks on your experience with Chains though. I have to admit I haven't played it in Pox myself yet as I don't own it, but I can borrow it from a friend if necessary. I wouldn't have thought it was great against Elves, but I guess it stops Glimpse/Visionary.
On the note of Elves: could 1 Grafdigger's Cage be a good sideboard option, to diversify the graveyard hate to also randomly hit PIF in storm (their best comeback against us after some discarding I guess?) and Elves?

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Originally Posted by Toxboy

Hello, been a while since I posted but since you're building on from my list (I'm Teodor Sundberg, in my first list the judge misspelled my lastname to Suntburg) ..

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Hey, you replied to my post awhile back, just wondering if you are still running BG Pox and what are you replacing Sensei's Diving Top slot with?

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Originally Posted by Fjaulnir

I already run Cabal Pit in the above list ;) agreed on its usefulness with or without Cruible.


Thanks on your experience with Chains though. I have to admit I haven't played it in Pox myself yet as I don't own it, but I can borrow it from a friend if necessary. I wouldn't have thought it was great against Elves, but I guess it stops Glimpse/Visionary.
On the note of Elves: could 1 Grafdigger's Cage be a good sideboard option, to diversify the graveyard hate to also randomly hit PIF in storm (their best comeback against us after some discarding I guess?) and Elves?

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So i don't particularly like it against elves, since they are just fine trying to kill us and out advantage us without their card draw, I was simply using it as an illustration. I tested a lot with chains vs. miracles, and it did very, very little, since they're one of the few brainstorm decks that doesn't actually start choking without access to brainstorm. I think elves is already a reasonable-to-slightly favored matchup for us, and chains can cut off some of their lines that we have a considerable amount of difficulty with normally.
I don't hate expanding the graveyard hate to a grafdigger's cage, but i'd want to be certain that i'm going to be playing decks where they're actually going to be doing things that cage can interact with (reanimating, searching deck for dudes, etc.) to play it over surgical/extirpate, since those have utility in most matchups if you have cards that are bad. i've had minimal trouble with storm, and your list looks like they basically need to be praying for a turn one kill in two games out of the match or they just die, so that wouldn't be a concern. i'd actually consider another sweeper (NoSB, BSZ, Deluge) if you're concerned with playing elves, since that likely means that you have several people expecting to see a lot of DnT and Eldrazi to combat the rise of combo with miracles gone. at that point, you're also likely to see leovold and lands decks, neither of which get particularly hurt by cage. I don't hate a second bridge, since it shuts off most of the elves lines that you're concerned about with Cage and also keeps Lage from killing you out of lands and most of the threats out of Leovold, Eldrazi, and D&T in check.
I also don't like Faerie Macabre in your GY hate package. most of the decks where hitting 1-2 cards is relevant, i'd rather have surgical/extirpate just to make sure i don't have to deal with whatever i'm hitting again (bridge from below, cabal therapy) or something utterly inclusive on the graveyard (tormod's crypt, leyline, nihil spellbomb).
Also, i'm not entirely sold on the Ob in the board at the moment, I'd rather have it as a Last Hope, who at least gets to help keep the board clear vs. creature decks, or aforementioned board wipe/creature control method. I don't hate a copy of the Abyss somewhere in your 75, as most BUG decks (and most delver decks) just singlehandedly lose to it, and it is absurdly helpful against eldrazi, DnT and Elves. so it all depends on what the meta will look like, but i think you're in a reasonable spot right now.
Also, i'm really curious how the Phyrexian Totems have been, since i don't personally like them much but i acknowledge that the last time i played them was before Veil got printed.

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Originally Posted by Quitrex

So i don't particularly like it against elves, since they are just fine trying to kill us and out advantage us without their card draw, I was simply using it as an illustration. I tested a lot with chains vs. miracles, and it did very, very little, since they're one of the few brainstorm decks that doesn't actually start choking without access to brainstorm. I think elves is already a reasonable-to-slightly favored matchup for us, and chains can cut off some of their lines that we have a considerable amount of difficulty with normally.
I don't hate expanding the graveyard hate to a grafdigger's cage, but i'd want to be certain that i'm going to be playing decks where they're actually going to be doing things that cage can interact with (reanimating, searching deck for dudes, etc.) to play it over surgical/extirpate, since those have utility in most matchups if you have cards that are bad. i've had minimal trouble with storm, and your list looks like they basically need to be praying for a turn one kill in two games out of the match or they just die, so that wouldn't be a concern. i'd actually consider another sweeper (NoSB, BSZ, Deluge) if you're concerned with playing elves, since that likely means that you have several people expecting to see a lot of DnT and Eldrazi to combat the rise of combo with miracles gone. at that point, you're also likely to see leovold and lands decks, neither of which get particularly hurt by cage. I don't hate a second bridge, since it shuts off most of the elves lines that you're concerned about with Cage and also keeps Lage from killing you out of lands and most of the threats out of Leovold, Eldrazi, and D&T in check.
I also don't like Faerie Macabre in your GY hate package. most of the decks where hitting 1-2 cards is relevant, i'd rather have surgical/extirpate just to make sure i don't have to deal with whatever i'm hitting again (bridge from below, cabal therapy) or something utterly inclusive on the graveyard (tormod's crypt, leyline, nihil spellbomb).
Also, i'm not entirely sold on the Ob in the board at the moment, I'd rather have it as a Last Hope, who at least gets to help keep the board clear vs. creature decks, or aforementioned board wipe/creature control method. I don't hate a copy of the Abyss somewhere in your 75, as most BUG decks (and most delver decks) just singlehandedly lose to it, and it is absurdly helpful against eldrazi, DnT and Elves. so it all depends on what the meta will look like, but i think you're in a reasonable spot right now.
Also, i'm really curious how the Phyrexian Totems have been, since i don't personally like them much but i acknowledge that the last time i played them was before Veil got printed.

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Thanks for the long feedback.

1) I can see Chains being bad against Miracles/Top yes.

2) Cage was mostly to diversify hate, but I guess against PIF in Storm, usually Surgical is as good indeed. So the PIF argument isn't valid, and it'd only blank NO/GSZ in Elves.

3) BSZ sounds interesting. That or an extra Deluge. Life total is a precious resource, but Zenithing for 5 to kill a bunch of Eldrazi seems unlikely. I don't like NOSB maindeck because it halves our clock practically. (when going Mishra)

4) A second Bridge in the SB sounds interesting (already play 1 main so that'd make it 3 total). It won me games against Dredge, DnT apart from the usual (SnT, Marit Lage) so I can see it being good as a 3-off to dodge removal.

5) The 3-1 split Surgical-Faerie was because Faerie is possibly a 2/2 flying threat if you've already locked your GY opponent out of the game and you topdeck it later. Then again I guess if you're already nuked their GY to the point of them not having a chance at winning, the threat is irrelevant too.
Gets around Chancellor too tho.

6) You mean Liliana of the last Hope? She kills 2/1 creatures, but apart from that I don't see it; she doesn't give real card advantage as we run (almost) no creatures to return from the yard? Ob Nixilis seems better against f.ex. Stoneblade, where drawing more cards and killing their buyback Batterskull every few turns if need be, seemed the best route to victory.

7) The Abyss is out of my price range for now :smile: I thought it was pretty outdated? Doesn't kill a lot of things so it seemed too conditional...

8) Phyrexian Totem, not 10% sure yet; will need more testing. It's been a mana rock 90% of the time, that sometimes fixed my double black requirements (when cast off Wasteland Mishra Swamp f.ex.). Kills people occasionally, the 5/5 trample body is a better clock than Mishra.
It's an awful blocker tho. Once had the funny synergy with Maze of Ith come up to untap it after being blocked by a surprise Aether Vial true-name. Basically is only a creature if the board is absolutely empty, that's why I'm not sold yet.

So I particularly prefer more surgical effects against lands, since if you can hit their depths, their punishing fire, and whatever they boarded in as a kill condition, they literally just deck themselves, but we don't get to wait around for it since we usually lose game 1. I also almost prefer it being an extirpate so that the force of will combo decks (sneak and show, u/b reanimator, high tide, etc) can't really interact with it.

My thing with last hope is that her plus cursed scroll or cabal put kills 3/3s every ten (assuming crucible for the pit) where ob kills one thing every 4 turns if you want to keep him around. There's also the fact that you never really want to roll her down, so you usually wind up at her ultimate in surprisingly short order, and any b/x standard player can tell you how fast that wins the game (hint: very). There's the also the argument you pointed out against toxic deluge where life is a resource that ob also taxes you for, which I found he actually hurts you more than even blossom in that sense, but some amount of that is just me.

Abyss kills everything except MUD creatures and TNN. If you get it on an empty board, it outperforms even nether void against bug decks, d&t, eldrazi, and delver. As long as you can answer the card drawing from griselbrand and sneak attack, it's as good as bridge (if not better) against sneak and show. It is a little slow against elves, but it does do a very good job at helping mop up the board after a wipe. It's not one of the big, flashy pieces that just wins the game on its own a lot of the time, but it is so overpowering against so many decks that it has more than earned a spot in my version. Granted, your second tabernacle may be picking up a lot of that slack, but I have gone to a 1-1 main-board split of abyss and loved it. I'll likely trim one for a couple months until the meta calms down, though, so it's part of the 'season to taste' package for the slots where you finish locking your opponent out.

I personally like NoSB over e plague since it can't be abrupt decayed and it doesn't discriminate on creature types to just auto win certain matchups. Ex. Mopping up a young pyro+tnn board. D&t in general. Elves (they can't decay it). I can easily see it being another sweeper, but I usually consider at least one since it basically auto wins the matches where it's good, so the extra kill time isn't that important.

Ok, that's convincing enough to at least proxy up Lili and maybe Abyss for some test games.

Whats your opinion on 1-off Ghost Quarter in a list like the above? Seems like a valuable addition to 4 Wasteland + Crucible, both to answer problematic lands (Inkmoth, Dark Depths) if you don't draw the Wasteland fast enough, as well as another way to outgrind your opponents lands until they can't pay for Tabernacle. Useful or just too cute & slow? (after all it's another Colorless land which we already run enough of)

I am currently finding room for a one of ghost quarter in my list. In a lot of matches it looks like a fifth wasteland, and in the ones where it doesn't you generally don't mind the ability to hit their basics or the non-basics are enough trouble to be worth it.

So, we have another 5-0 in a daily list.
2 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cursed Scroll
3 Dark Ritual
3 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Touch
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 SMallpox
3 Thoughtseize
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp
2 Tomb of Urami
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacomb
4 Wasteland

2 Collective Brutality
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Voikd
2 Nether Void
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Toxic Deluge

I still don't care for the second Nether spirit, and I feel like the second Tomb would suffer a similar feel. I'm also less fond of the 5th 1 mana discard when you're still on the full set of hymns, and I'm not sure on the main board Ob. All that aside, seems like a stable base for when people ask where Mono B should start looking.

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Originally Posted by Quitrex

So, we have another 5-0 in a daily list.
2 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cursed Scroll
3 Dark Ritual
3 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Touch
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 SMallpox
3 Thoughtseize
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp
2 Tomb of Urami
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacomb
4 Wasteland

2 Collective Brutality
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Voikd
2 Nether Void
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Toxic Deluge

I still don't care for the second Nether spirit, and I feel like the second Tomb would suffer a similar feel. I'm also less fond of the 5th 1 mana discard when you're still on the full set of hymns, and I'm not sure on the main board Ob. All that aside, seems like a stable base for when people ask where Mono B should start looking.

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Is Tomb of Urami any good? I've toyed with the idea, but this deck just goes all out with 2. does anyone have experience with it? I only have 1 crucible in my list, which might make a difference.

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Originally Posted by ntropy

Is Tomb of Urami any good? I've toyed with the idea, but this deck just goes all out with 2. does anyone have experience with it? I only have 1 crucible in my list, which might make a difference.

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An older MTGO list had 2 tombs and 1 Nether Void. Essentially, being able to come back using Crucible isn't the point. Takes too many turns. What you're supposed to do is summon Urami at end of their turn when their hand is empty, their land count is less than 4, and the Nether Void is online. In that scenario, your opponent has few turns. In the 'perfect world' scenario, your Nether Void is online and you Sinkholed/Smallpoxed all their land away and you use Phyrexian Totems or what not to power out your Urami.

In that case, your win is guaranteed. I've found Urami better to run in a Loam Deck for some reason but a 5/5 all-in play works when you've got an overwhelming advantage. In my deck, it's a 3 turn clock cause I WILL big Pox you before swinging for the fences.

The only time I made a token with it, it got Fatal Pushed :cry: (I had to drop it to not die to an attack, so I couldn't wait until my opponent was empty handed)

I'd definitely not pop one out if you don't have to or if your opponent has too many outs (cards in hand or available mana)

It feels wrong to say, but I feel like Phyrexian Totem is a safer alternative than Tomb of Urami. It provides value with Smallpox, castable off Wastelands and Factories, hits just as hard and is easier to manage the downside. The list of flash creatures can be listed on one hand and you can empty their hand to protect from burn before you animate. Any straight removal doesn't set you back turns and turns.

I actually lost to Adachi Ryosuke at GP Shizuoka's Legacy Side event due to his totems (I was on miracles). Card is underrated.

I've tried Tomb of Urami before and he can work out well, he just requires a lot of resources to use him. Even if you have stripped your opponents hand of cards, they can just rip a wasteland or swords for him and you're kind fucked. I think Phyrexian Totem is strictly better because your opponent has to have instant speed removal for him which they should have no cards in their hand on your turn because of Liliana. And with how much creature removal we have, we shouldn't have to worry too much about the down side to him. Also the totem is a mana rock.

I just see the pros outweighing the cons with Phyrexian Totem.

I quite like Tomb of Urami. It doesn't compete for a slot of e.g. Phyrexian Totem but with a Swamp. If you think that making the token would cause you to lose, then don't activate the ability; at the end of the day the only loss is that you have another land (among many others) that can get hit by Wasteland, and pings you for damage if you don't control Urborg. The potential upside is worth it imo (but I don't think I would play more than one due to the huge diminishing returns of it being legendary and basically impossible to use 2 in the same game).

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

An older MTGO list had 2 tombs and 1 Nether Void. Essentially, being able to come back using Crucible isn't the point. Takes too many turns. What you're supposed to do is summon Urami at end of their turn when their hand is empty, their land count is less than 4, and the Nether Void is online. In that scenario, your opponent has few turns. In the 'perfect world' scenario, your Nether Void is online and you Sinkholed/Smallpoxed all their land away and you use Phyrexian Totems or what not to power out your Urami.

In that case, your win is guaranteed. I've found Urami better to run in a Loam Deck for some reason but a 5/5 all-in play works when you've got an overwhelming advantage. In my deck, it's a 3 turn clock cause I WILL big Pox you before swinging for the fences.

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That makes a lot of sense with the Voids. I'm still working towards those, but I may try one out. The cost to run it is pretty minimal.

On the subject of Totems, has anyone used Guardian Idol? The fact that it doesn't tap for black probably hurts too much, but I remember using it to ramp in Death Cloud Green back in the day and it's Pox-proof.

If we're running mana rocks, does it make sense to go a little bigger? Is there more room for 5 mana planeswalkers and 4 mana enchantments in the deck if we can skip a turn to get there? What if we run 3 or 4 Phyrexian Totems to boost us into the range of cards like Damnation, Tainted Aether, Liliana: Death's Majesty, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath. I'm not really advocating for this, I'm just thinking out loud - it seems funny to run a 3 mana rock when out curve tops out at 3. I guess Totem is not really to ramp, it's to make our mana more resilient while also presenting a threat.

I think Chimeric Idol is the next best "Idol" go to in Pox. Fatal Push is the first card to really offer us an instant speed spell we'd want to keep mana up for, so playing our sorceries then tapping out to attack wasn't a big downside. In a world where we were Poxing as often as we could, hitting with only a single Swamp to our name was a plus.

You're right about Pyrexian Totem, it's not for ramping our mana, but keeping us powered when we're leveraging our own land count to keep our opponent screwed, either through Smallpox or Wasteland.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

I think Chimeric Idol is the next best "Idol" go to in Pox. Fatal Push is the first card to really offer us an instant speed spell we'd want to keep mana up for, so playing our sorceries then tapping out to attack wasn't a big downside. In a world where we were Poxing as often as we could, hitting with only a single Swamp to our name was a plus.

You're right about Pyrexian Totem, it's not for ramping our mana, but keeping us powered when we're leveraging our own land count to keep our opponent screwed, either through Smallpox or Wasteland.

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Chimeric Idol is in fact excellent if you want to trick your opponent. We've got access to 3 free spells in ascending order.

1. Snuff Out, hurts your life quite badly, but can be offset with...
2. Spinning Darkness. A nice cheap classic that's excellent for midgame. What's more, it allows you to run 2-3 Nether Spirits as you can simply exile the excess should they be board wiped. Forces burn to use an extra Bolt.
3. Contagion. Recommended by Tom "The Boss" Ross in his own Pox deck. Works wonders against Infect and other low toughness based decks. Can 2 for 2 if your target the right elves/goblins etc. Or hard cast it late game. I'd recommend 1-2 of these.

I really wanted Chimerics to work but Mishra's Factory is too ingrained. Much like the QWERTY keyboard vs. Dvorak. I do reference an old deck from way back from time to time: http://www.mtgtwincast.com/Articles/...PoxPrimer.html An ancient build with an awkward pairing of Mishra's with Chimeric. Still, something to consider despite the inherent dis-synergy.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

I really wanted Chimerics to work but Mishra's Factory is too ingrained. Much like the QWERTY keyboard vs. Dvorak. I do reference an old deck from way back from time to time: http://www.mtgtwincast.com/Articles/...PoxPrimer.html An ancient build with an awkward pairing of Mishra's with Chimeric. Still, something to consider despite the inherent dis-synergy.

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I have definitely run Factory and Idol together, it never bothered me. This was pre-smallpox though. I haven't considered Idol recently, but it could be worth trying out.

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Originally Posted by ntropy

I have definitely run Factory and Idol together, it never bothered me. This was pre-smallpox though. I haven't considered Idol recently, but it could be worth trying out.

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Do you run it like in the elder deck mentioned? 3 Idol to 2 Factory or would it be worth it running 4/4 or 2 Idol/3-4 Factory? The reasoning was Factory was a 'fall back' win condition in case other win conditions were unavailable. It also made casting spells easier with stable color base. The original Pox thread mentioned just removing Crucibles made space since Factory + Crucible were Nether Spirit in combo.

The problem ultimately is removing lands as kill conditions means you lose more disruption. It's a delicate balancing act.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Do you run it like in the elder deck mentioned? 3 Idol to 2 Factory or would it be worth it running 4/4 or 2 Idol/3-4 Factory? The reasoning was Factory was a 'fall back' win condition in case other win conditions were unavailable. It also made casting spells easier with stable color base. The original Pox thread mentioned just removing Crucibles made space since Factory + Crucible were Nether Spirit in combo.

The problem ultimately is removing lands as kill conditions means you lose more disruption. It's a delicate balancing act.

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That is exactly why I haven't really gone back to the Idols - they took up disruption spots. I seem to remember running a full 4 and 4 Idols and factories, but that seems impossible since this was pre-Urborg as-well. There was probably a lot of movement, 3 factories one day, 4 the next, wheatever.

I hate to break up this Idol discussion, but is anyone else playing Cursed Totem in their sideboard? I love this card right now. It's been hitting so many cards for me even in matchups you wouldn't expect. Tin Fins pretty much scooped once it resolved.

Seems good against Elves - most other matchups I can see myself boarding it in (eg griselbrand decks) Pithing Needle seems better? As it can also stop Sneak Attack in show n tell for example, or both Stoneforge and Aether Vial against Dnt

Ultimately you are stopping creature abilities in a deck built to kill all creatures.
Pithing Needle does what Cursed Totem does but is infinitely more flexible and half the cost.
You bring up Tin Fins as your example. Pithing Needle can cripple them the same and you also have grave hate.
Elves is not the most tedious of matchups so I cannot imagine having anothing as narrow as Cursed Totem for side games.
Death and Taxes is minimally impacted but Neelde on Vial or Stoneforge is better than Totem on Mother and Stoneforge.

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Originally Posted by sppabin

Ultimately you are stopping creature abilities in a deck built to kill all creatures.
Pithing Needle does what Cursed Totem does but is infinitely more flexible and half the cost.
You bring up Tin Fins as your example. Pithing Needle can cripple them the same and you also have grave hate.
Elves is not the most tedious of matchups so I cannot imagine having anothing as narrow as Cursed Totem for side games.
Death and Taxes is minimally impacted but Neelde on Vial or Stoneforge is better than Totem on Mother and Stoneforge.

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Is it as flexible as Pithing Needle? No.

However, it does hit multiple cards at once in a deck that loves to get 2 for 1s or better. The card wrecks Elves, against Loam it hits Knight+Scooze+Deathrite+Dryad Arbor, D&T is splashing red now and this hits Stoneforge+Nalaar family+mom. I used to run three copies of Needle but without Miracles as an ever present threat I ditched one for a Totem, and it has been very good. Catch all cards have a place in sideboards as far as I'm concerned.

Have to agree with Sppabin

You have to be careful about suggesting Cursed Totem generates 2-for-1s when your is full of Edicts. In creature matchups you are obviously boarding in / keeping in all of your creature removal. So when you play Innocent Blood or Smallpox or whatever then they just sac whatever you already turned off with Totem. Meanwhile if you just had 2 Innocent Bloods instead you could have killed both of their guys and not have to worry about the remaining creature attacking you or Liliana.

If there is one specific gamebreaking ability that you really care about then you will be glad that Pithing Needle only costs 1 mana (against TinFins for example) and can hit planeswalkers / random stuff like Grindstone.

There isn't really a strategy built around activating multiple different creature abilities except Elves, where I would rather have NOSB or Engineered Plague anyway.

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Originally Posted by Chiptoon

Is it as flexible as Pithing Needle? No.

However, it does hit multiple cards at once in a deck that loves to get 2 for 1s or better. The card wrecks Elves, against Loam it hits Knight+Scooze+Deathrite+Dryad Arbor, D&T is splashing red now and this hits Stoneforge+Nalaar family+mom. I used to run three copies of Needle but without Miracles as an ever present threat I ditched one for a Totem, and it has been very good. Catch all cards have a place in sideboards as far as I'm concerned.

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I was playing 2 Needle and 1 Null Rod during Miracles era. Needle was flexible Null Rod had overlap with other applications. Similar approach to what you have. I would say Totem ends up being dead more often though. Every creature still needs dealt with. Even if Knight and Ooze cannot use abilities they still attack.
I have yet to play a league post Top banning so there is a chance the meta is perfect for Totem. My main concern is that it is a sideboard slot that makes our good matchups better.

Cursed totem doesn't really appeal to me, since elves is thenpromary matchup I think you want it in, and I think that matchup is already reasonable to good. I prefer pitching needle to null rod or totem, simply because I am loathe to go below 10 cards I can board in vs lands. In my testing, game one is basically an auto scoop (although some of that may be that our local lands player is the luckiest sack of excremental to walk the face of the earth when it comes to Mtg) and the board plan should be able to at least partially make up for that. I'm inclined to think lands will get more popular with one of the 50-50, skill dependent matchups getting hit.
I also think that the ability to hit the other permanent that actually matters (aether vial, sneak attack, jace tms, etc.) is a very potent option in matchups that do have creatures we care about. Heavens, hitting fetch lands has won me games before.

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Originally Posted by Quitrex

Cursed totem doesn't really appeal to me, since elves is thenpromary matchup I think you want it in, and I think that matchup is already reasonable to good. I prefer pitching needle to null rod or totem, simply because I am loathe to go below 10 cards I can board in vs lands. In my testing, game one is basically an auto scoop (although some of that may be that our local lands player is the luckiest sack of excremental to walk the face of the earth when it comes to Mtg) and the board plan should be able to at least partially make up for that. I'm inclined to think lands will get more popular with one of the 50-50, skill dependent matchups getting hit.
I also think that the ability to hit the other permanent that actually matters (aether vial, sneak attack, jace tms, etc.) is a very potent option in matchups that do have creatures we care about. Heavens, hitting fetch lands has won me games before.

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What are your ten versus lands?

Current list
1 cabal pit
1 ghost quarter
2 marsh flats
4 factory
8 swamp
1 tabernacle
3 urborg
4 wasteland
1 nether spirit
1 crucible of worlds
3 cursed scroll
3 dark ritual
3 fatal push
1 grim tutor
4 hymn to tourach
4 Liliana of the veil
2 nether void
3 sinkhole
4 smallpox
1 abyss
4 thoughtseize
2 toxic deluge

2 chains
1 crucible
2 ensnaring bridge
2 extirpate
1 night of souls betrayal
3 pitching needle
3 surgical extraction
1 the abyss

In
3 Surgical
2 Extirpate
2 Bridge
3 Needle
1 Crucible

Out
3 fatal push
2 hymn
1 thoughtseize
1 nether void
1 tabernacle
2 deluge

I generally keep the abyss in anymore since most of them are on 2-3 prime Titan or tracker in the board, use the needles to buy borderline infinite time against the depths kill and to help lock them off of porting us. The first surgical or extirpate should (almost) always go for a loan or a depths. If you can hit loan and find a crucible, you want to hit their artifact hate so you can just wasteland lock them, if you hit a depths, I usually just go for the punishing fire and whatever their backup win con is so that they just can't win. The thoughtseizes are mostly there to let you know what you actually need to play around and forcibly expose their artifact hate or loan to your gy hate when they aren't ready for it, while the hymns can just randomly win a game (oh, did I get your only green source? Oops...) bridge is similar to needle in that it buys huge time against depths, but trades coming down early for being good against most of the chosen backup plans. I leave one nether void in just for an additional thing to lock them under with crucible/wasteland, but it's not as splendid as you want to leave both copies in. I generally just scoop game 1 as soon as I know what deck they're on, and this board plan seems to put games 2-3 at a manageable enough situation that I'm almost running 50-50 for matches. Probably needs a little refining to fit everybody's individual taste, but it works fairly well for me.
The 10 cards I'm referring to is the non-crucible cards I board in, as I don't always have the 2nd crucible in the board.

Lost to fast exploration /crop rotation last Tuesday. It just ignored my wasteland surgical hate.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Lost to fast exploration /crop rotation last Tuesday. It just ignored my wasteland surgical hate.

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It's those moments where I would love to play Shadow of Doubt. That card always seems like it would be good, but when I actually test the card it's never in my hand even when I try three copies.

So I'm gonna take Pox to 7-round tourney today for the first time.


Had a last quick question: what do you guys think about play-draw?

Against quick combo of course there's no question of going on the play, but I noticed over the last 2 weeks playtesting, that against slower decks (f.ex. with Jace) or even midrange I won 75% (gut feeling, didn't write down results to analyse statistically) when they were on the play, and I lost when I was on the play. Often even when looking at the top card, it would have been the one to wipe the board and get me back in.

So my feeling tells me to go on the draw against anything that ends in a top deck war and doesn't need turn 1 interaction like Thoughtseize for Vial, as you'll have +2 cards on them compared to being on the play. And without a way to sculpt our hands, having +2 cards on your opponent seems better than having nothing to Innocent Blood on turn 1; on the other hand being on the draw means their creatures will often have had 1 more turn to attack before they die.


Any insight on this from more experienced players? I know of some control pilots (like Miracles) who like to go on the draw in the mirror as well.