It's a 4 color monstrosity without any filters. This is a worse Spell-/manabase-combination than Deathblade and just asks for colorscrew.
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It's a 4 color monstrosity without any filters. This is a worse Spell-/manabase-combination than Deathblade and just asks for colorscrew.
Edit. Nope.
What do you mean "Filters?"
Cantrips or the like to fix all the ugly SS + Taiga + Discard or Decay + Tropical hands/draws which you can not undo and are all basically either mulligans or deaddraws just because you decided to Splash 2 different colors for 4/75 cards. RidiculousQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Enjoying hearing Julian talk about our little green men at Everyday Eternal.
I have been side boarding 2x Choke for awhile now, I think that it has applications beyond Miracles. I have found it to be very useful versus delver variants as a "must counter" threat to bait them.
Tried out bitter blossom, wasn't super impressed. I think its applications beyond miracles are slight, but not negligible.
Ruric+Swan Song isn't necessarily a bad plan, but playing Taiga+Trop is horrible. You don't need the Taiga for Ruric, especially not if you play a 4 DRS 2 Birchlore build. That's easily enough red sources for the random Ruric hardcasts. You'll lose games less often to not being able to hardcast Ruric than to having an 8 fetch 2 basic manabase. If you're splashing blue, it should be 4 Cradle 2 Forest 2 Bayou 1 Trop 9 fetches, 1/2 Arbor to taste.
What matchups did you try Bitterblossom in SpencerS? Maindeck, SB, boarding plan? Personally I'd bring in Blossom vs. Miracles, Esper-color Blade decks, maybe S&T (which I still haven't gotten to test, it may be an atrocious idea).
Hi everyone!
I am new in elves, and I have some questions, what do you think about:
#1- 3 NO, instead of 4 NO in main, is it enoght?
#2- 2 birchlord 3 heritages, instead of 1 birchlord and 4 heritages?It depends on having Ruric & Swan song? Would work 3 birchlords or too much??
#3- Is necessary tropical island if you have Swan in sideboard, or its OK if you have 4 deathrites and 2 birchlords?
#4- Big difference between having 8 fetchs and 9? I think the rest of lands should be 4 cradles 2 dryad, 1 forest, and 2 bayous, ¿Savannah/Taiga?
#5- Viridian Shaman, Ooze and /or Ruric in main??? Why? Which one is better? Main, sideboard or out?
Sideboard:
#6- For me is necessary x3 Needle, x3 Abrupt, x3 Thoughtseize, x1 NO x1 Progenitus , but the 3 rest based on:
A) null road,meekstone?
B) teeg,qalasi?
C) cabal teraphy, surgical extraction?
D) Choke, mindbreak trap?
E) worldspine wurm / ooze / ruric ?
These are my dudes.... Which options are better?
Thanks, and sorry for my English!:tongue:
1) 3 main is standard operation these days. 4tg in the side.
2) If you want. With the push towards NO as the win con, Heritage lost some of her power. If you need the mana it is not a bad call, but I would still go with 4 Druid myself. I like having a more stable Glimpse option.
3) Test that build without the Tropical, then test it with it. I bet you a Badlands your going to want that Trop.
4) Yes there is a difference, but meta dependent you can get away with 8. If all you see is RUG local for example, you will have plenty to Deed off from the other guy. But I really do suggest 9.
5) Reclamation Sage is the best answer here. Imo of course. Ruric is good, in the right Meta. As for Ooze, same as Ruric. If it's called on, run it. Personally I have mine in the side.
6) Meta call. Knowing nothing about your meta, I will not comment.
Question for the board, does Sage make the white splash even more obsolete than it was or is it just me?
Reading Ross' earlier comment regarding the pridemage, he found the benefit of pridemage is instant speed jitte destruction. This is still true of the difference between sage and pridemage. For me the main comparison point is the reusability of sage and sorcery speed vs the once off but instant speed hit of pridemage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I can't really think of lots of cases where you need multiple disenchant effects making the sage more favourable.
I played Elves! for a several years until I sold off my deck a year ago or so and I just started looking through lists since I was curious where the deck was nowadays. Pardon if this is a stupid or silly question, but when did Regal Force become a non-include in practically 100% of lists?
When we realized that 2 Hoofs is just better. You can do a non-lethal but big damage Hoof and basically gain an Abyss. If they have nothing, Hoof => Lotsa damage => Unboosted swing for the kill the next turn is the same speed as Regal => Next turn lethal Hoof. Low health also constrains an opponent's options. It's iffy to go for Hoofs like that if you don't have a second one waiting in the wings. The format is admittedly a lot more grindy than it was back then, so dunno.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
The color requirement, the creature-type and the reusability are 3 strong points towards running Sage and dismissing white completely and imo it's not nearly a tough call.Quote:
Originally Posted by starfox444
The point with Heritages is that it comes with Nettles as a duo to make Glimpse an actual combo. You have to discuss the whole package here imo, especially now that this archetype is under pressure of a lot of sweepers in the metagame: how good is drawing Nettles/Heritages if you don't have a Glimpse/NO available/see it countered or drawing those Elves after a sweeper? The fact is that those are really shitty Elves to rebuild a board or to naturally draw past turn 4. Dan, might remember my remark in our podcast that I can see us harrow these slots in the build and use Glimpse + 2 starting-creatures in our hand for drawing 3-4 cards and keep our grip filled that way in case of sweepers and dismiss the idea of comboing.
I can even see a radical shift towards a midrange approach with more WRP and Crop Rotation to create a higher density of threats and access to Cradle
Edit 4 Hoof-Topic:
The second Hoof was added for having one to NO for if one got Stuck in your hand, was discarded or countered. The moment Regal Force was able to draw a mentionable amount of cards. (4 or more), Hoof and friends are deadly. Less variance and less durdling
If you recall from one of Ross's games, he put a Pridemage into play the turn after a Stoneforge fetched up a Jitte. His opponent then cast Swords to Plowshares, removing the Pridemage, before then dropping Jitte into play. This is a bit of a corner case, I'll admit, but Pridemage being a preemptive answer to Jitte means that our opponents get a chance to remove it from play before it is relevant. Although V.Shaman/R.Sage are sorcery speed, they also can hide in our hand/library until their targets are exposed. Sure, sometimes that means we have to eat a Jitte swing, but in my experience I've much preferred the guaranteed action of the V.Shaman to the preemptive work of the Pridemage. Also, the recurring effect with Wirewood Symbiote is more relevant than you might think, although usually only against Tier 1.5/2 decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by starfox444
Also, cutting the Savannah gives us some significant room in the manabase. And now that most of us don't run Gaddock Teeg anymore, splashing :w: is not always worth it these days. It might seem weird to think that cutting a single land could really help out our manabases that much, but remember that most of us are pushing 9-10 fetchlands to adequately feed DRS and balancing that with 2 basics, 2 Bayou, 4 Cradle, and 2 Arbor means that we need to make tough cuts somewhere.
IRT Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel, as Lemnear mentioned, the most progressive lists are now moving farther and farther away from the "combo" and working to strengthen our midrange capabilities. That means running a 3/3 split of Heritage/Nettle while exploring MD midrange allstars like Scavenging Ooze, Viridian Shaman, and most recently Wren's Run Packmaster.
This is exactly what I've been trying for about a month now it it's been working great.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
Is it worth switching to 4 NO and 3 glimpse instead then with lower nettle/heritage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Probably. Finally got annoyed enough with my Nettles that I gave them the boot in the test build. In goes Abrupt Decay, sideboard gets populated with more combo hate <3
Packmaster has been a boss thus far, and is actually a reason I want to keep Heritage Druids around. Value Glimpses and playing Little Wolf Factory don't need Nettles though. Very much looking forward to seeing how this concoction fares against UWR and Miracles.
Test Build
Maindeck
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
1 Birchlore Rangers
3 Heritage Druid
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Worldspine Wurm
1 Hornet Queen
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Bitterblossom
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
No. I would not cut a Glimpse from the maindeck. The card is the whole reason the entire deck is built a certain way. If you were to drop Glimpse, you would have to rebuild the deck from scratch. I think that there's a dedicated midrange build of "Value Elves"® out there, but it is not created by just cutting Glimpse.Quote:
Originally Posted by trevaftw
Here a very midrange-focussed build I'm testing atm, chopping the bad-topdeck-crew of Nettle/Heritage/Glimpse for the reusable Messenger to join side with Visionary as a draw engine (for the sake of testing; I have doubts Messenger is good enough with all the lands and non-elf cards). Decided to bring back the Crop Rotations for virtual 8 cradles to support Messenger and 4 NO in addition to GSZ, because without Glimpse we are less likely to draw into Cradles. Also upped the count of actual manadorks due to those changes. Will return with impressions after testing.
P.S. I'm convinced that IF the Nettle/Heritage core has to be replaced because the metagame is too hostile and/or the combo is too fragile for Legacy today and causes a lot of "deaddraws" as an ultimate result, "8 Cradle" might be the way to go, either via Crop Rotation or Sylvan ScryingQuote:
Creatures (30)
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Sylvan Messenger
2 Dryad Arbor
Lands (18)
2 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Gaea's Cradle
Spells (12)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Crop Rotation
If we're going for 2 mana sorceries to get our Cradles, might as well go the whole hog and play Living Wish, no?
You definitely want to work at least 1 Cavern of Souls into that list. Recurring uncounterable Sylvan Messengers is brutal. With Reclamation Sage hitting the mix as soon as M15 is out, we pretty much have a makeshift Abrupt Decay right there, allowing us to operate like Goblins against Miracles.
And by "us", of course, I mean a very different deck after all. Just wanted to clarify that I have no intentions of actually making any kind of switch from Combo to Value Elves for a real tournament. But it's a fun approach after all.
/Edit: No way Living Wish is gonna make the cut. The sb options are way to specialized and valueable to actually make Living Wish good (which is a pretty weak card in the first place).
/Edit2: If you wanna go full Value Elves®, you want at least 1 Umezawa's Jitte in the maindeck.
/Edit3: 4 Crop Rotation seems like definitely too much. Because Jitte already has issues kind of competing against Natural Order, I would much rather cut 2 Crop Rotation to make room for more actual spells.
/Edit4: Also, a maindeck option to answer flying creatures is even more neccessary than it already is in the current built. Anything will probably do, just make sure it's an Elf. I like the idea of Lys Alana Bowmaster but there's probably something better after all.
You could also run only 1 or 2 Sylvan Messengers and replace the other 2/3 with some more mana-dorks. GSZ ensures you still have a virtual 5 or 6 Messengers in your deck whilst the extra dorks increase the probability you have one in your hand for T1 (and increases the number of 1-drops in general, which is never bad for this deck).
I think we must be careful not to make the deck too slow by adding more expensive cards (which the Messengers are).
As mentioned, i'm not even sure the Messenger are playable with only about half the deck being Elves. I just want to try some wacky ideas to reduce bad topdecks or having to always holding back 1-2 creatures in case you draw a Glimpse.
Love the idea of MD A-decays.... I've had serious problems with Loam for a few weeks now, regarding their MD Teeg.... Isn't there a green creature/play worthy green guy, that can shoot for 2? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Isn't that just moving the deck towards a bad midrange BG Natural Order-deck..? It hurts your creature base needed for Glimpses and Cradles, even making it harder to cast your kill-card. You might as well start running Goyfs as a secondary kill-condition, you're giving it enough food to get pretty big.Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix4
I don't get the point with Messenger. It does not allow to draw NO nor GSZ, or even Symbiot, Glimpse, Decay, etc.
Only elves, while when you have 4 mana it's usually not the cards you're looking at.
If I wanted to max out the draw engine, I would go with more visionnary (6 maybe, with 2 Multani's Acolyte) and maybe some cloudstone curio. And I'm pretty sure it's not the way to go (otherwise, it would have been what the elves list would have look like before the printing of DRS and hoof).
I know it's a cornercase.... But i'm having a bit of a problem with 4-color loam in my local meta.... They seem to be on a roll, regarding putting Gaddock Teeg in play, usually before i have a chance to GSZ or Natural order...Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Do i have a legit shot at finding something to put MD to answer it, or do i simply wait for a giant cradle and behemoth? :P
G1 just try to assemble your BFF-team ASAP and try to win on a Glimpse-chain. I wouldn't run AD MD unless I see myself boarding them in for over 50% of my G2's.
With Reclamation Sage, there's no reason to dilute the maindeck with Abrupt Decays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
For all you know he has a meta that consists of 95% UW Miracles...
Besides, M2015 won't be released until half july so the Sage can't help us quite yet.
Why don't we have an elf that shoots? :P
It doesn't. I'm just a bit disappointed with Nettles and testing the Decays there because they're basically the most broadly useful card in fair matchups that we play. Again, it's a test build where I try out stuff - sometimes crazy, sometimes not. Little else.
We do, they are just too slow:Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix4
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/cfx/90.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/ps/94.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/ne/66.jpg
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/sh/64.jpg
This is also a card. Importantly lowers the power of the flyer which helps if you're racing.
Playing some games and goldfishing a lot with the test build, and yeah the Decays are starting to feel bad. At first I just didn't draw the kinds of hands where they mattered. Even then, the problem is them not being creatures, not them not being Nettle Sentinels. Any random one-mana Elf would be fine with most of these. Nettles still have some value in turning Glimpse into a kill spell, but I think one of them is turning into a Warcaller.
Skyshroud archer < Scattershot archer
If you put one of those into your SB, I believe it is mainly for BUG delver (which is imho the first reason to play elves! now).
And post SB, golgari charm is a card and you prefer an elf with 2 toughtness if it has to become active.
I think it is spelled "Death & Taxes." ...:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
For me that the second reason: better MU, but less common.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I happen to meet a BUG maybe 1/3 of the matches. :wink:
Otherwise @ JPoJohnson, Lemnar & Zombie:
I happen to still run 1 Hoof/1 Regal. Not the most common combination I admit, but I continue to do so, thus I will explain why:
It's true that often, when I fire NO craterhoof is lethal.
But it is very rare that NO gets uncountered, I have a hoof in hand, hoof would have been lethal and Regal don't win me the game.
It has happen, but it's very rare.
On the other hand, being able to GSZ@7 into something highly relevant won me quite a few games.
Otherwise #2 @ WLL & WRP:
I still like a lot WLL vs BUG & Jund, and consider it as one of my most important SB slot (better than WRP in these MU).
But have like WRP as a solid creature in a lot of other MUs (D&T, Miracle), and I think I will run 1 of each with -1 Decay after Reclamation Sage's release.
I also liked WLL alot! Played 1 WRP Main and 2 WLL (to see and cast it vs a common meta thing like Grafdigger's Cage which shuts down more than enough...), WLL performed very good, because you can Tutor for it and kill/presure with the pump the same turn. WRP is better, if you can untap with it (and maybe a cradle) and can abuse the ability too grind it down in a far better way than with WLL (because something linke TNN, Gofy, BSkull can still stop our attacks).Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
As i mentioned, i played against a lot of matchup with cage, and i think it is one of the best answers against common builds if you pair it with disruption (most blue based decks) or a combo kill (Sneak Show). Sure - Glimpse or best friend team is still a very good backup option, so i will keep it, but i also try to find some grind options: 1 Maindeck Ooze, 1 Maindeck WRP/WLL etc.
In g1 you really don't want to grind but set up the combo (there is not much hate in most g1 in any matchup)
So i don't get the idea of having things like packmaster or ooze or whatever in the maindeck which doesn't support your glimpse-turn or say speed in general.
Don't get me wrong,these fun-off dudes are probably great to have after sideboarding when your opponents bring in cages or canonists but not in g1.
(I also don't play abrupt decay in my ant deck for example for the same reason)
Yet in your ANT deck I bet you play cabal therapy main.
What does it has to do with it?
ANT & Elves are different, and one of the main difference is that Elves does not need to combo fast to win because it could win otherwise (aggro), stall a while (dryad/ranger or symbiot), grind,...
And that's necessary because unlike other combo decks, it does not have any discard (ANT/TES/rea) nor counterspell (S&S, rea, Omnitell). ScOoze makes GSZ@2 a very serious thread vs many decks.
So I'm an advocate of one of Viridian ('till July) and ScOoze MD: they are not hurting the combo plan too much and are wonderful GSZ-targets.
After I'm not sold either to play WRP or WLL MD because they are specific answers to SB cards (against sweepers, hatebears).
But ScOoze is a one-slot GSZ target which almost win the game on it's own against RUG, and do a terrific job vs BUG & Jund.
Kai, I assume you might be pushing hard down the combo route g1. That's probably still fine but not the way a lot of us play the deck as it neglects the the long-term potential of Elves, which has a supreme lategame (if it wasn't for still lacking a maindeckable answer to fliers).
The biggest reason for e.g. Ooze to be in the main is to save sideboard slots. Bringing it in is fine but we want much more dedicated, high-impact cards. Ooze is not and can easily be floated to the maindeck as it's a strong card in a lot of matchups thus having it in the sb instead creates a smaller strategic advantage than heavy-hitters like Meekstone, Null Rod, Choke, Mindbreak Trap etc.
You also mentioned having issues with the Storm combo matchup. As with everything in Legacy, you will not be able to cover all your bases; so if you want to make the conscious decision to strengthen your storm matchup, add Mindbreak Traps to the sideboard. They're not as versatile as discard but of higher strategic value, allowing you to tap out as early as turn1. With discard, you just can't play that turn1 accelerator over Thoughtseize (esp. on the draw), thus costing you an entire round which is a lot given that both decks are easily capable of turn3 wins. My general strategic approach to that matchup is to put them to 12 or less life ASAP, then have DRS+Quirion Ranger online. This pretty much shuts down Ad Nauseam and Past in Flames. Depending on your mana, even an Ad Nauseam from 14 is super risky as 2 DRS activations are practically only 10 life.
Btw, good to see you joining the green side. Gonna be in Prague, I assume?
I see, thx alot julian.
Gonna think about that once more (like wll because it shuts down golgari charm which is still popular due to tnn)
Yep i'm gonna attend prague eternal together with my berlin crew,hope to get some of these crazy things called "prices/duals" ;D