[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

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Originally Posted by serendib

As for the choice of playing muc with splash. Well, Landstill is a completely different deck to my view. I like having wasteland-proof manabase (and landstill does not, because every wastaland he does or opponent does, it slows down). Secondly, I don't like standstill because there are some match up where you side you draw engine out (e.g. some vial decks). third reason: I like playing control decks who beats every other control decks.
last reason: I love back to basics and fof.
(I play UWb landstill too)

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Opening yourself up to Wasteland is a risk associated with being able to play stuff like Jace 2.0 and Moat in the same deck. Generally, UW Landstill should be fetching basics early, then duals only when necessary; you can definitely play around and mitigate the effects of Wasteland while not hampering your own gameplan too much.

Standstill, even if you side it out, is still better than pretty everything MUC is running for a draw engine... because MUC doesn't have a draw engine. MUC relies on some combination of Brainstorm, FoF, Jace (which Landstill also can run) in addition to janky stuff like Think Twice, Ancestral Visions, etc. If you dislike Standstill, you must really dislike MUC's draw options.

Where did you get that MUC beats other traditional control decks? Maybe in 2008, but modern Landstill lists no longer roll over to a resolved Back to Basics and some Landstill lists even run Back to Basics in their own sideboards. The old BHWW Landstill lists that MUC used to prey on no longer exist. I'd suggest looking at modern lists like Wapo-Tafa's UWg list (Krosan Grip anyone?) and straight UW lists that pretty much laugh at your win conditions (Sphinx, Morphling) and your board control permanents (Back to Basics, Vedalken Shackles).

at serendib- The problem that I have with cryptic command is that it will always cost 4 mana. I would never want to open with it in my opening hand because it has the same problem that I have with to many fof. With repeal, I like the fact that I can play it early because that is where I feel we need to work on.

I am pretty lucky because in my meta there are a lot of 4 color decks where back to basic does just ruin them. Right now I don't think control decks have a great draw engine. I think stanstill is HORRIBLE in landstill variants and fof is to much mana to play as a 4 of. Brainstorm to me is card manipulation since it doesn't really give you card advantage. There are a lot of things that I do like about AV but it is so bad when you don't play it on your 1st couple of turns since it is so slow. I would love to play TFK but I don't support enough artifacts to really run it, and 3 mana is still a lot imo.

On a side note what do you guys think about MD spell pierce? I would love to have another one casting counterspell, but unsure if it is good enough to main deck.

After my last turnaments (not with muc) I come to the following "conclusions" about Muc:

#1) I think one of the problem with MUC is the draw engine.

I express the concept better: If I run 4 brainstorm/impulse + 4fact or fiction which is good, I am playing 4 cantrips and 4 card advantage spell. BUT If in a turnament I don't find my FoF or the first one I find gets countered, I'm out of the game. (and playing FoF at turn 4/5 usually means not doing anything alse in that turn if we don't have a FoW)
As for now, I believe MUC needs to be set with less "bombs" (like FoF) and A LOT of spell with written on "DO SOMETHING AND DRAW".
to give an example: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...=94&iddeck=885
I personally don't like this list too much and I believe is not really in meta. But it has 17 cards with written the word "draw" on them. which is good.

#2) I need less hate-able spells. the most important one is powder keg/rachet bomb. Engineered explosives are much better topdecks and very important : they are not destroyable with krosan grip or other spells if you play them like that (enters? ok! I sacrifice!.. never pass and give the change to your opponent to krip)

#3) lower casting cost, more draw spell, not too many lands is the key (don't want to lose a game because I draw 3 land in a row). AND very very Few dead cards in my hand. for example I'm not a fan of spell snare. And at least 1/4 of the deck needs to solve me the problem of an opponent thread already on board. Controling the stack is a poor strategic plan to my view.

#4) because of all these aspects muc needs splash Uxy. White for sure. as for the second colour I'm between red and black. black provides perish, but IF we for example play relic maindeck, red could be better (vs green creatures sacrifice relic and do firespout = wrath of god + draw a card -> huge card advantage ) because provides good options vs aggro that black do not give us.

Something like this list is what I mean (I have not tested it, It's just to give an idea of the type of deck I mean)

4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
1 tundra
1 volcanic island
1 mountain
1 plains
10 island [tot#22]

1 sphinxs (too many fetch to run morphling)
3 vendilion clique
3 jace
3 trinket mage

4 engineered explosives
3 relic of progenitus

4 swords to plowshares
3 fire//ice
3 vedalken shackles

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 counterspell (tot#61... need to cut to 60 obv.)

[about 18/19 cards can make us draw an other card if we want or need]

sideboard:
2 back to basics
1 blood moon (or B2B #3)
3 spell pierce
3 peacekeeper (GOD vs merfolks, show and tell and dredge)
2 red elemental blast
1 pithing needle
3 firespout / lighnting bolt

I've being playing monoUcontrol decks since urza (since when morphling & masticore were printed). I love monoU and it allways fashinate me. but I believe it's time to splash if we want to be competitive (3 years ago we were competitive not splashing)... othervise we are just playing a pet deck.
We cannot control the stack anymore like when we were playing with Ophidian, we have no more the best legacy creatures and a draw spell nowadays needs to DO SOMETHING + DRAW A CARD (not just draw...) and we need to minimize dead cards in the deck.

what you think ? Could this be the way to work on MUC ?

(Yeah, It's still muc to my view, even if it runs remouval spells. landstill is a completely different deck )

serendib, don't you feel like you need jace the mind sculptor though?

Yes, I do. I play 3. but with remouval spells.

The idea of running jace (big or little) in a list like this kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. why would you want a win condition that aggro decks can attack directly? rather than a win condition that can block and kill of enemy threats? It seems a little counter int uitive to me, and if your arg ument is that creatures attacking jace instead of attacking you buys you the time you need to win, than the rest of your deck isn't working t he way it should be. It may just be a personal preference of mine, but I've never been a fan of either jace in a deck list like this.

The morphling vs. Sphinx of jwar isle issue has weighed fairly heavy on my mind. The sphinx is certainly bigger and requires less free mana to operate, but doesn't provide the options that morphling has. I'm stating the obvious here, but I'm not really convinced in either direction. This, again, mit come down to a matter of preference.

Brainstorming (pun intended) about the sphinx has lead to a few interesting ideas though. Has anyone considered running predict as a draw option? Alongside brainstorm, the sphinx, and maybe (gasp) the inclusion of a few memory lapse, might prove to be the card advantage we need. Maybe something like 4x brainstorm, 4x predict, 4x FoF, alongside fetches, sphinx and 2 memory lapse? It might be kind of gimmicky, but i feel like it has potential.

And that brings me to memory lapse, it might be stupid, but i love the idea of countering a spell and keeping an opponent a turn away from threshold, or keeping a key recursion card out of the graveyard for a turn. And locking them out of a draw? And comboing with predict? I haven't play tested it, but I'm going to start.

And with that, I'll keep the rest of my unorthodox choices to myself for now..

I think Remand outclassed Memory Lapse. Sure, often its not that useful in the sense you want it to be as Memory Lapse but its great because you are able to Remand own spells and if you want to delay the opponent it replaces itself, not that shitty but it might also be that I just played too much Solidarity:laugh:.
Still like the idea of delaying but I think that it isnt that effective in the form of such a card. Propaganda and Keg/Bomb should do a good job, especially when you can combine it with Repeal in your list. That works out for me quite well.

Predict is really good against players who like to flip Sensei's Divining Top, one of the most annoying cards for control decks to battle against. Because of that, Predict is not a bad idea at all. If you are running mono-blue with 22-25 Islands, Predicting yourself, naming Island, isn't a bad play, either. If you aren't running mono-blue, Brainstorm + Predict is a powerful play, also. I wouldn't run Memory Lapse just to "combo" with it though. That seems pretty awful.

so here's the decklist i've compiled after quite a bit of debate, research, and slight playtesting. i'm fairly dead-set on it's composition, but of course, i'm open to suggestions.

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23 islands

2 morphling
1 rainbow efreet

3 back to basics
3 propaganda
4 powder keg

4 force spike
4 counterspell
4 force of will

4 brainstorm
4 accumulated knowledge
4 fact or fiction

sideboard:
2 pithing need
3 relic of progenitus
1 propaganda
1 back to basics
4 mindbreak trap
4 hydroblast

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right off the bat, i have three changes that i'm torn on making:

1: brainstorm vs. preordain. brainstorm is an amazing card, and has been a personal favorite of mine ever since it saw print, but i really don't know if it's pulling it's weight without shuffle effects. i will say though, that being able to hide cards from duress is pretty nifty, though unreliable. preordain's speed is the liability that keeps it off my list, honestly, but i'm wondering if it's utility might be worth it anyway. i've also considered running peek in this cardslot, but honestly haven't give it much thought.

2: accumulated knowledge. in the limited playtesting that i've done, this card slot has been impulse, predict, and counterspells 13-16. my conclusion is that it needs to be draw, rather than counter. impulse digs like a champ, but doesn't provide the steam that i need, though i can bury cards that i've returned with brainstorm. obvious statements. i know. a lot of people have said that AK is too slow, but the deck is super slow itself, so it's never seemed to bother me. i'm also unafraid of dropping one in the graveyard from a well split fact or fiction. overall though, i'm unconvinced, and might try running impulse as a three-of, and add a second rainbow efreet.

3: the sideboard. hydroblast vs. chill? as of right now, i'm leaning towards hydroblast, because it's a faster/after the fact answer to turn one lackey. opinions? relic counts? pithing needle?

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conclusions that i've drawn/stubborn changes i refuse to make:

1. i'll probably never run a mono-blue control deck without force spike. mostly, it's a personal preference, but on the play with a brainstorm and a force spike in hand makes me smile every turn. turn 1-2, force spike plays like force of will, and that's all i'll ever need to convince myself it's a solid card. late game, it pitches, helps tap lands for back to basics, and can get lucky against players who tap out.

2. i refuse to splash. i'm a purist, and probably always will be. my mono-blue decks will always be just that.

3. big jace is out of my price range at the moment, and i'm fundamentally opposed to running him (see above posts). it's something i've considered, but not very in depth.

4. powder keg > ratchet bomb. powder keg can blow for three safely. ratchet bomb blows for three and takes propaganda and back to basics with it. also, powder keg is usually a turn faster.

5. i won't run fetch lands. albeit minutely, fetches thin the deck, and muc absolutely needs to nail it's land drops. it's really, extremely counter-intuitive to run fetches (in my opinion). also, the last thing the deck needs is to get hit with an early game stifle and crumble.

6. morphling is still the best. in just about every game i played with a different creature, i found myself wishing it could "U: untap." my hero, hands down.

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currently i'm not running vedalken shackles, which is probably an oversight on my part. that is all.

I'd run Top before Brainstorm in a mono blue list without fetchlands. I'd run Impulse before Top. So instead of Brainstorm, I'd say play Impulse. You aren't ever going to get late-game value out of it without fetches. Impulse late-game is still solid because it digs so deep. That's why I don't like Ponder and Preordain in this deck.. they don't dig as deep as Impulse.

I am still sold that Think Twice is better than Accumulated Knowledge.
AK #1 draws 1 card.
AK #2 draws 2 cards (3 cards total).
AK #3 draws 3 cards (6 cards total).
AK #4 draws 4 cards (10 cards total).
TT #1 draws 2 cards.
TT #2 draws 2 cards (4 cards total).
TT #3 draws 2 cards (6 cards total).
TT #4 draws 2 cards (8 cards total).

So Think Twice draws more total cards than Accumulated Knowledge until the third one cast.. and even then, they are tied. It's not until you cast the fourth one where AK becomes better. How often do you honestly cast all four AK? Yes, Fact or Fictioning away AK is probably better than FoFing away TT but you still gain value off the card so it's not a completely lost scenario. Plus, it is always awkward when you come to someone still trying to play Intuition into AK. The AK/AK mirror match is almost as annoying as the Cloudpost/Cloudpost mirror match.

I think you need to be running Shackles; it is a pivotal card in the deck. Maybe shave 1/1/1 on your draws/filtering? So:
-1 Brainstorm (Impulse if you take my suggestion)
-1 Accumulated Knowledge (Think Twice would be almost necessary if you are cutting an AK)
-1 Fact or Fiction
+3 Vedalken Shackles

How has Propaganda in the main deck been? I was never a fan of it, but I was always trying to fit some number in, especially when I was running Mana Leak. Speaking of which, I like it moreso than Force Spike. After turn 3, Force Spike was always dead in my hand. Mana Leak almost never was.

Has anyone tried Consecrated Sphinx out?
It could get out of hand, even if you're opponent kills it after drawing one card you didn't lose out on card advantage... It also works well with Jace V1 +2 ability...

I've been testing out a deck running 2 Consecrated Sphinx, 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 3 Vedalken Shackles and 2 Umezawe's Jitte to see how it goes and it hasn't been doing too bad, anyone else willing to try it out and say what they think about it?
Having removal in the form of jitte is rather refreshing and the revoker can slow down someone playing aether vial. It's also the reason why I've been testing Consecrated Sphinx as I can't use Jitte on shroud creatures. I should probably try out Morphling as well...

Any other Ideas or input into this thought, as I'm trying something new don't be too harsh before trying it yourself...

Oh and can anyone think of examples were the revokers ability to stop mana abilities would be relevant in MUC's bad matchups? I put it in the deck mainly against vials but it can also stop lotus petals and LED's is it releavant though? Maybe it's ability to stop Noble Hierarchs could sometimes be useful.... thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason

I'd run Top before Brainstorm in a mono blue list without fetchlands. I'd run Impulse before Top. So instead of Brainstorm, I'd say play Impulse. You aren't ever going to get late-game value out of it without fetches. Impulse late-game is still solid because it digs so deep. That's why I don't like Ponder and Preordain in this deck.. they don't dig as deep as Impulse.

I am still sold that Think Twice is better than Accumulated Knowledge.
AK #1 draws 1 card.
AK #2 draws 2 cards (3 cards total).
AK #3 draws 3 cards (6 cards total).
AK #4 draws 4 cards (10 cards total).
TT #1 draws 2 cards.
TT #2 draws 2 cards (4 cards total).
TT #3 draws 2 cards (6 cards total).
TT #4 draws 2 cards (8 cards total).

So Think Twice draws more total cards than Accumulated Knowledge until the third one cast.. and even then, they are tied. It's not until you cast the fourth one where AK becomes better. How often do you honestly cast all four AK? Yes, Fact or Fictioning away AK is probably better than FoFing away TT but you still gain value off the card so it's not a completely lost scenario. Plus, it is always awkward when you come to someone still trying to play Intuition into AK. The AK/AK mirror match is almost as annoying as the Cloudpost/Cloudpost mirror match.

I think you need to be running Shackles; it is a pivotal card in the deck. Maybe shave 1/1/1 on your draws/filtering? So:
-1 Brainstorm (Impulse if you take my suggestion)
-1 Accumulated Knowledge (Think Twice would be almost necessary if you are cutting an AK)
-1 Fact or Fiction
+3 Vedalken Shackles

How has Propaganda in the main deck been? I was never a fan of it, but I was always trying to fit some number in, especially when I was running Mana Leak. Speaking of which, I like it moreso than Force Spike. After turn 3, Force Spike was always dead in my hand. Mana Leak almost never was.

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Jason, shouldn't the cost efficiency of Accumulated Knowledge + Think Twice be factored as well? I think the main reason Think Twice fell out of favor is that you almost always have to spend mana answering threats in this format. Rarely do you pass the turn EOT Draw 1 card. I personally don't prefer either, and prefer the denser control package + more creature answers e.g. Shackles, hit to 4 mana and draw a ton with FoF.

Edit: Metalwalker pointed it out while I was thinking about and writing this.

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I am still sold that Think Twice is better than Accumulated Knowledge.
AK #1 draws 1 card.
AK #2 draws 2 cards (3 cards total).
AK #3 draws 3 cards (6 cards total).
AK #4 draws 4 cards (10 cards total).
TT #1 draws 2 cards.
TT #2 draws 2 cards (4 cards total).
TT #3 draws 2 cards (6 cards total).
TT #4 draws 2 cards (8 cards total).

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I totally recognize that TT draws more cards per game than AK does -- you might only seen 35/60 cards in an average game. But, I'm not sure if that is really the only consideration that matters here.

Mana efficiency matters, even in a dedicated control deck. AK is both mana efficient and playable at almost all stages of the game (some mana efficient draw spells just cost too much, so this is worth pointing out).

Mana spent per card:
AK #1 -- 2.0 mana
AK #2 -- 1.0 mana (1.3 average mana per card)
AK #3 -- 0.7 mana (1.0 average mana per card)
AK #4 -- 0.5 mana (0.8 average mana per card)
TT #1 -- 2.5 mana
TT #2 -- 2.5 mana (2.5 average mana per card)
TT #3 -- 2.5 mana (2.5 average mana per card)
TT #4 -- 2.5 mana (2.5 average mana per card)

(Obviously, we can average 2.0 mana per card if we don't flashback, but that isn't the point of the exercise -- AK is still more efficient on the 2nd or after)

I'm inclined to agree that TT is better than AK, but not by the same margin you imply. Overall, I prefer Impulse to both of them.



peace,
4eak

That's fair. I forgot about mana efficiency. However, if you have the ability to eot AK/TT then you probably have a good board position. That would mean it's unlikely you were doing anything with the mana anyway. I would rather do something with my mana every turn so it isn't a lost resource. I've been in many situations where it was a mid-game stall and Think Twice pulled me out of it because I was using my mana to draw cards. It's similar to why Whispers of the Muse wasn't awful.

I'm not saying Think Twice is worth a slot in the deck. I don't think it is. I just feel it's better than AK.

AK is only worthwhile in combination with Intution, even in a control deck. I usually find 4 Fact of Fiction more than sufficient for card draw.

Also not a big fan of morphling ever since the rules change that made it much worse during combat. Vastly prefer something like Call the Skybreaker or hell, even the shroud turtle.

I to have a list with jitte in the deck and it has been amazing for me. it helps wins attrition wars and it really powerful even if we don't run that many creatures. a lot of you may think it isn't that good but I have had very good results with it. I think for me at least it is a keeper in the deck and no one expects it. I Jitte a lot in the deck!

Personally I'll play Impulse over AK over TT. TT is really good on paper, and in practice is good when you can afford 3mana EOT. At least, I seldom see that happening when playing control in Legacy these days. Turns 1-3 are the most crucial turns, and affording the initial 3 mana to draw 1 is quite bad. The thing I like about AK over TT is that it's only bad on the first AK, the 2nd AK is quite significantly good (consider the next best spell after Standstill is Predict which situationally draws 2). Regardless, in a deck like MUC, I would play Impulse over AK/TT, but just Impulse won't cut it itself since it's never really generating card advantage, that's why Shackles/FoF are so good in this deck because they generate either pseudo or hard card advantage when the deck is gaining control.

Do most lists now tend to be a Ux splash these days? I find it hard not to play with a Splash and going mono-blue.

Yes, Impulse is amazing. Way better than Accumilated Knowledge unless you are pairing it with Intuition.

Don't forget Thirst for Knowledge. If you pack artefact lands / artefact accelerators it's almost on the same powerlevel as Fact or Fiction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Yes, Impulse is amazing. Way better than Accumilated Knowledge unless you are pairing it with Intuition.

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That's the fallacy though. AK with Intuition is obviously good, but is Intuition good in MUC? Unlikely. Is AK still good without Intuition? My point was to say yes, that you break even on the 2nd AK (i.e. there's no other spell that draws 2 for 2 mana at instant speed without drawbacks in the format, i.e. the comparison against Predict).

Iron Buddha, I used to play TfK, it was awesome in a build with 3 Tops, 4 Shackles, 2 EE, 1 Disk, but that was like 4 years ago when I played the deck :P I'm interested in taking on MUC again someday though since it's probably one of the most nostalgic deck that works great in right metagames (i.e. Wasteland heavy, non-basic heavy metagames).