[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Damn that sucks. I predict it comes right back off the BR list next go round.
Anyway while I agree that the loss of MMS probably benefitted TA overall it did make our aggro matchup worse. Period.
As for NO RUG, it will NOT go away, in fact I see it becoming even stronger post MMS due to no answer to t1 hierarch/gsz.

A return of goblins and combo will benefit us but I believe merfolk also got a boost. Hell they might even start maindecking stifle if the environment is right, could you imagine the horror?
Ok probably not but just saying. I hope everyone who complained about MMS gets their asses kicked in the "new" old meta while wishing they were holding a misstep.

For TA my line of thinking is similar to Catmint's with more removal (5 main or 4 + 2 liliana) and curving into clique/liliana. I do think liliana will replace jace main due to format speed and the higher daze count.

Im not sure I like ghastly demise main though, especially if running the full playset of tombstalkers. Ive tried it in the past and have lost games due to it. I guess it just depends but I dont see KotR going anywhere.

What does this do to the stoneforge/batterskull/jace/visions decks? I've been maindecking Putrefy as my removal of choice for a while, just so I'd have an instant speed answer to batterskull and SoFaF, thoughts on whether that will still be necessary? I'd like to go back to cheaper removal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

I hope everyone who complained about MMS gets their asses kicked in the "new" old meta while wishing they were holding a misstep.

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This. :laugh:

Jeff,
I think that UW SFM/Jace decks will be pretty much dead or transform into something totally different because without mental misstep they can't stop the hordes of small critters from fast aggro decks nor can protect SFM from lightning bolt/stp/innocent blood as easily as they used to.

Kinda what I expected. It'll be nice to get back to my cheap spells.

I don't think most TA players who were complaining about MMS were complaining about it's role in the deck, but more it's role in the format. I mean, seriously how much fun were the endless games of "brainstorm" "Misstep" "misstep your misstep" "misstep your misstep"

I was tired of every viable deck being blue . . . . . it'll be nice to see some difference in the format, and I for one don't necessarily think it's a bad thing if there is some combo in the format too, which there really hasn't been.

J

Maybe its the best, but I dont like to just put 4 of every card and call it a deck. With the new options I want to at least try to be creative. Maybe we can give snapcaster a try running ghastly demise as removal and flashing back a thoughtseize/hymn can also be very good!.

I think of snapcaster for ghastly mostly in merfolk and goblin matshup where this play can be a nice 2 for 1 flashing it in and blocking. Running 4 Stalker... I dont know. I dont need it on the starting hand and I don't need multiples. 2 is enough I think, so the ghastly demise plan can work out.

I would like to test something like this:

21 land

Win
4 Goyf
2 Stalker
2 V-Clique

Utility
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage


Disruption
2 Liliana
4 Stifle
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Hymn to tourach

With liliana counting as removal and the ability to flashback demise with mage, I feel good about the removal package.

Concerning sidebaord I would like to have
2 more ghastly demise to abuse snapcaster mage
2 smother or 2 edict
2 deed
2 Krosan Grip for Equipments, Countertop and painted stone
2 Null Rod for combo, equipments, vial, painted stone and SD.top
2 Spell Pierce or 2 Duress
3 Extirpate: Lands, Dredge coming back, helps versus combo -> abuseabel with snapcaster mage

I really don't see Snapcaster Mage being a fit for Team America. Its body is obviously fragile, and it may enable you to play one or (maybe - look at this deck's mana development) two instants/sorceries from your yard, at the cost of exiling them (both hurting yet-uncasted Tombstalkers) afterwards. There might be some merit in re-using cantrips, but I'd rather have a solid draw-two off a Predict, or an additional Sylvan Library for its CMC I guess.

I do believe the 2-2 split of Tombstalker and Clique to be wrong. That has to be 3-2 in my opinion (4-2 is very debatable otoh) - you inevitably do want to have a Tombstalker in every one of your games, so a two-of won't cut it.

Quote:

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21 land

Win
4 Goyf
2 Stalker
2 V-Clique

Utility
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage


Disruption
2 Liliana
4 Stifle
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Hymn to tourach

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I like the shell you have but I think you need a couple more counter spells for a proper counter wall. Only some testing will prove if this is true or not I know. Also while I think snapcaster mage (now SCM) is worth testing, I think I would rather make room for the 3rd tombstalker before including these although you could drop to 20 lands pretty easily in this build I think. The bad part about more than 2 tombstalkers is obviously the dissynergy with ghastly demise, but I still think tombstalkers are a 3-of if you want to play any (and I think we all do).

With the banning of MMS I am really considering dropping hymn for sinkhole and maxing out thoughtseize like the original list. Ive only tested slightly with proxy sinkholes and I never really liked them as much as hymn though so idk.

Here's my dilemma:

Here's my list

4 Underground sea
2 Tropical island
1 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforest
1 island
4 wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Mental misstep
3 stifle

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Hymn to tourach
3 Dismember
2 Smother

My question is how can I replace the 4 MM? I was thinking:
+1 Sylvan library
+3 Thoughtseize
or
+1 sylvan library
+1 Darkblast
+2 Pernicious deed.

I need help here, any opinions are appreciated

I think Deed isn't a good maindeck choice in the faster tempo builds. It definitely belongs in the board, but unless you're running Confidant/Jace in the main, I don't think you want Deed main either.

Personally I'd run the 4th Stifle at the very least. It's a card you absolutely want to see on the first turn of almost every game, and it's rarely bad to see in multiples. Aside from that, I'd try 1 or 2 Libraries, possibly the 4th Ponder, and either Spell Pierce or Thoughtsieze for the remaining slots.

I was thinking that I need something that could help against super aggressive builds in my MD, with adding the 4th stifle and 1 library what would help against aggro in 2 slots? Perhaps 1 darkblast and a ponder? Suggestions in that regard?

Team America (60)

Creatures 9
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

Plainswalkers 2
2 Liliana of the Veil

Permission 10
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

Disruption 10
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

Cantrips 6
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Removal 3
3 Dismember

Lands 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

Im thinking something like this, which is very close to what ive been testing with anyway. I go back and forth on the 2nd Liliana vs. Sylvan Library and sometimes I run all 3. Without MMS I think we may need to increase the Ponder count again, both to feed tombstalker and to shuffle away dead draws as the amount of conditional cards we run may have increased without missteps.


On another note, I made a bad post a few pages back about testing Surgical Extraction maindeck. Now that misstep is gone and the format will speed up again I wonder if this would be worth testing afterall. Hear me out.

Cons:
-Doesnt affect the board state
-Is often card disadvantage
-Phyrexian life tax can add up
-Sucks against redundant aggro strategies (like much of TAs cards already)

Pros:
-Permanently eliminates win conditions nabbed by discard/counter spells
-Can be a tempo play in certain circumstances
-Feeds tombstalker for "free"
-Can occassionally take cards from opponents hand (making thoughtseize into a flashback cabal therapy)
-No more mental misstep
-Would make TA even better vs combo
-Acts similar to misstep by removing opposing counterspells permanently

So there it is. I did limited testing with this in conjunction with thoughtseize for a single day. I had great results and poor results too. One of the biggest factors however was not the card disadvantage but rather the combined life loss of this + misstep + thoughtseize making aggro matchups abyssmal, and also when I would get in a misstep war over a thoughtseize and such. Now however that cant happen and the deck has already proven it can handle the life loss of 4 phyrexian mana cards.
Anyway just a thought for some 'new tech'.

Edit: either way I think theres good arguments to play thoughtseize now alongside or in place of hymn since spell pierce will make a return and thoughtseize would allow us to leave mana open for spell pierce t2.

Surgical main seems fine if you hit a lot of Dredge and Combo (Intuition decks) and a lot of Tempo... Exiling the wasted Tropical is usually gg, giving the black versions the upper edge most of the time.

Here's what I'm playing since the ban:

20 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

8 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

32 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Darkblast

15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast

It's been pretty solid so far. I picked Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce in the board because typically anything I want to pierce, I can just pulse. But I'm not sure if that's correct though.

Input?

Edit: corrected the decklist

"I picked Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce in the board because typically anything I want to pierce, I can just pulse. But I'm not sure if that's correct though."


I wouldn't do that, there are a number of problematic stuff that Pierce can deal with that Storm misses. Pierce can counter opposing Planeswalkers (specifically Jace TMS which is a nightmare if he resolves), defensive artifacts and enchantments, like Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Ensnaring Bridge etc.

Above are just a few examples, Spell Pierce is an overall, much more versatile card. It deals with some issue permanents that TA traditionally has few maindeck, or sideboard, answers to - most obviously Planeswalkers. The only matchup where I'd want Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce is perhaps High Tide, and only then to counter my opponent's own Storms.

Do you think we should take Jace TMS into consideration as much as we used to after the ban?

I've switched my list to a typical 20 lands 4of everything which gives me 2 flex slots like Zilla said. However I'm just not comfortable with Sylvan Library. We already have 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponders. There are very few occasions when I draw Library, actually need to use it, tap 2 mana for it and have enough life to spend on drawing extra cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

Do you think we should take Jace TMS into consideration as much as we used to after the ban?

I've switched my list to a typical 20 lands 4of everything which gives me 2 flex slots like Zilla said. However I'm just not comfortable with Sylvan Library. We already have 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponders. There are very few occasions when I draw Library, actually need to use it, tap 2 mana for it and have enough life to spend on drawing extra cards.

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I will test him, at least. Since we now have less stable ways of protecting our threats from removal like StP, I think two Jace 2.0 might make it into my MD or at least SB.

I'm not keen on Sylvan Library myself, I'd much rather topdeck a Jace in mid-late game than a Library.

I'm a fan of the miser's Sylvan Library. I really can't stand Jace being in the maindeck. Most games you don't need him, and the games you do -- you can typically bring him in game 2.

But that's just personal preference.

Does T.A. beat Stoneblade? Is the version of gerry Thompson with dark confidant still viable?

I'm going to try 2 more removals in MD (a total of 6) and see how that turns out. I think our maindeck is quite even against everything except aggro the way it so maybe 6 removal won't be too bad.

any help on maindeck choices that would help against aggro?