[Deck] Solidarity

I have some questions concerning Emrakul - both rules / stack wise and in terms of how to deal with it.

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When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.

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1- How does this actually work with a bunch of Brain Freeze storm copies on the stack? I assume that the copy that hits Emrakul will finish resolving and mill all remaining cards up to 3, then Emrakul's ability trigger goes on the stack and will be the next thing to resolve unless responded to?

2- How do we deal with this? If possible I'd want to cast a second Brain Freeze or Remand + recast the first one in response to Emrakul to finish the library off and then Wish for Ravenous Trap to exile everything. This might be difficult and/or need a lot of mana and Remands/Brain Freezes if there's more than 1 Emrakul in the deck, such as in Show and Tell?

Floi

Floi your instincts are correct, it can be a bit of a pain to deal with emrakul, even when he's just in their deck. depending on how many cards are left in the deck at that point you may have a chance to stroke for the win, otherwise its brain freeze in response

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Originally Posted by dillonkbase

Floi your instincts are correct, it can be a bit of a pain to deal with emrakul, even when he's just in their deck. depending on how many cards are left in the deck at that point you may have a chance to stroke for the win, otherwise its brain freeze in response

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Or just respond to the trigger and continue working, Remand BF and cast it again?, wish for ravenous trap, draw, dig etc.... Well there are several possibilities since your whole deck are instants ;)

I was reading through this article on Starcitygames (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...ol_Rising.html) and it make me think about some of the "set in stone" principles of this deck.

Could a more "controlish" approach be posible?

For example, spell pierce is great in this deck because it answers almost any problematic card the turns before the combo for one single mana.

Of course, adding cards that are dead midcombo must be addressed by other means, for example more card draw. Flash of Insight maybe? In a longer game, it will shine (you can cycle it for 2U and in the combo turn is almost a instant demonic tutor).

A first list could be:

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Meditate
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Peer Through Deeps
3 Flash of Insight
2 Cunning Wish
1 Repeal
1 Cryptic Command
2 Brain Freeze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
7 Fetchlands
13 Island

Obviously it will have a worse first game agaisnt goblins, but against anything else I think it could be better. The idea is that with more lands you can use the cantrips for searching for answers or combo parts and you'll need less untappers having more lands in play.

Thoughts?

I've read the article, nice spiral tide list ; but in this one and in yours I failed to see why Remand is not in. Remand is a counterspell and a cantrip and in my opinion serves the purpose of both decks : to be more "controlish".

I remember a deck list that seems to fit this same theme, I believe it was Vacrix's whom likes to play with more repeal maindeck.

So I suppose that in order to be more controlish we have to up the remand and repeal count, lowering maybe the Peer through deepths and Flash of Insight ones.

Maybe something like this:

-1 brain freeze
-1 flash of insight
-2 Peer Through Depths
+1 Zenith
+2 Remand
+1 Repeal

I love Zenith maindeck in that spiral tide list. I used to play my solidarity list with 2 stroke, one maindeck and one SB. Using them more than Brain Freeze to Kill.

I agree with Firefraise. I specially like cards that delay the game until we can go off without giving up card advantage.

Remands are a must have. They are not really permission, but they delay the game until we can go off. And they are useful mid-combo (remanding our own spells if the opponent tries to counter them or remanding/recasting a Brain Freeze if storm is not lethal yet).

I also testing Repeal. It takes care of some of the hate like Ethersworn Canonist, Thorn of Amethyst, or Trinisphere after they're on the field (and of course delays aggro). Repeal on their end step, untap on your turn, go off in response to them replaying the hate on their next turn. I'm currently testing two repeals in the sideboard. I'm still not sure what to side out. Sometimes I side out Opt, other times Cryptic Command, and I'm even testing siding Force of Wills out for Repeal if the opponent's deck does not have must-counter spells or if it is slow.

If anyone wants to test (Repeal for example), just let me know (I'm on European time until March 7th).

[Disclaimer: I'm still learning the deck. I don't own all cards yet (just got my Resets yay! :). I only goldfish and play it on MWS for now.]

I am avoiding posting since everytime i post the thread simply stops or soemthing and i feel that i said something wrong, but this time i have to speak it out loud: Damm i already say it: this deck isn't a storm race deck the main profile it's to lure your opp in a way you can deal with threats, in order to build a good hand so is essential cards like repeal cryptic and remand that not only solve situations but also provides you cantrip... Remand and - my favorite additions to the deck - Repeal are both amazing, than combined with cryptic even better!

Btw as siding out FOW: I side it out every single match against beat down, for some exception on the big zoo with canonist, teeg, choke and pyros, i only side out 2 and not the 4...

@Seraphus:
"this deck isn't a storm race deck the main profile it's to lure your opp in a way you can deal with threats, in order to build a good hand so is essential cards like repeal cryptic and remand that not only solve situations but also provides you cantrip... Remand and - my favorite additions to the deck - Repeal are both amazing, than combined with cryptic even better!

Btw as siding out FOW: I side it out every single match against beat down, for some exception on the big zoo with canonist, teeg, choke and pyros, i only side out 2 and not the 4... "

- Agreed in all points. I posted my list for a couple of month ago and described that plan nearly exact that way, too. I have gone up a bit heavier to the full playset of Remand and 3 Repeal (which is one of THE cards in my oppinion that makes the deck playable in the modern meta) and added Hunting Pack in the sb. to deal better with Aggro-Decks where Remand are, especially on the Draw, not that effective in general.
Boarding out FoW is also a plan that I follow and it feels just right and it does work out properly. My list hasnt changed at all since I last posted, besides switching Stroke for Zenith, and I am stil very happy with it. As said nearly too much, the deck is in such a huge dependency of the skill of the pilot that the most people are underestimating the deck at all because they dont know how the deck its played. I heard from some players that it just doesnt make sense to play the deck since Time Spiral is unbanned and that the instant-speed is just a style factor...WRONG! Man, I get fed up with that statement.
I didnt played the deck in the last 5 or 4 tourneys to take a step away from it to not become too focused on the deck (which isnt good IMO) and beeing still open minded to the format and understanding other decks and see how they work out and I am pretty happy with that. I recognized that beeing too much involved into a deck can ruin the decisions you make in a game and you rely too much on the experiences you've made. That sounds a bit confusing but is exactly what I experienced, especially with Solidarity. I can just recommend to take a step away from the deck If you have crucial problems with it and come back later more open minded. You'll become a better pilot of the deck, thats what I faced. Sure its not that logical playing a deck lesser makes a better player of it, but putting too much effort in it can turn out the other way around IMO.
Greetings

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Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher

@ I can just recommend to take a step away from the deck If you have crucial problems with it and come back later more open minded. You'll become a better pilot of the deck, thats what I faced. Sure its not that logical playing a deck lesser makes a better player of it, but putting too much effort in it can turn out the other way around IMO.
Greetings

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Yep i think you're right. I went 0-4, yes, 0-4 today with 2 repeals and 2 commands, almost sepharuas list. I'll give up for a time.

Yes, recently I've build the "sorcery version" of this deck and with the unbanning of Time Spiral I think it's superior to Solidarity in every way.
Simply, 12 1CC cantrips is a filtering power this deck cannot compete.

Merchant scroll makes resolving 3,4 or even 5 or 6 (with time spiral) high tides really easy. So teh amount of mana it can produce is greater even with less lands in play and with worse untapping effects.

Finaly, Time Spiral just pushes the deck to tier 1.5 at least. Is just so easy to win with just 3 lands in play (reallys is, just try it) and with the same protection or more (I play 3 counterspells in the main and 3 pact of negation on the side alongside 4 FoW) that I believe that if anything changes in the future, Solidarity is condemned to a tier 2-3 status.

Note: Also, winninng with Blue Sun's Zenith on 90-95% of cases is just better than winning with Brain Freeze in a meta full of Emrakuls.

I've been having some trouble with the Merfolk match-up, lately. I'm having issues with being on the draw against that deck, especially with a turn 1 Cursecatcher. Does anyone have a strong plan for that match-up? I wish I could just play some kind of Pyroclasm effect to just wreck their board so I can sculpt a hand to beat their countermagic. Or perhaps the key is just good stall tactics, like Repeal or Moment's Peace (though I strongly dislike that implied vulnerability to Wasteland). All I know is this: I'm losing games because I have to go off earlier than I'd like in the face of 4+ countermagic effects. I'm using 3 Mindbreak Traps and 2 Dispels in my sideboard right now, and I feel like I still need a little bit more to make the match-up favorable. With some tournaments on the horizon for me, I really want to make sure that I consistently beat Merfolk because the deck is very popular over here.

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Originally Posted by Zinch

Yes, recently I've build the "sorcery version" of this deck and with the unbanning of Time Spiral I think it's superior to Solidarity in every way.
Simply, 12 1CC cantrips is a filtering power this deck cannot compete.

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I don't think you have your facts straight. Each deck has a similarly-constructed cantrip suite, starting with Brainstorms. The Spiral build uses Ponders and Preordains as its other 8 cantrips, whereas Solidarity uses Impulse and Opt/Peek in that spot. Both decks play 12 cantrips, so it's not as though Spiral Tide has more digging power on the low end of the mana curve. The fact of the matter is that Solidarity is playing instant cantrips to sculpt based on perfect information. That's a notch higher than Preordain's slight strength over Opt and Ponder's mana-efficiency over Impulse. The whole point is to build a hand that plays best to handle the current situation, and doing that on your opponent's turn is worth its weight in gold.

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Merchant scroll makes resolving 3,4 or even 5 or 6 (with time spiral) high tides really easy. So teh amount of mana it can produce is greater even with less lands in play and with worse untapping effects.

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Resolving High Tide was already really easy. You play a Tide on your opponent's end step, and if he tries to counter it, you Remand your Tide. Then next turn you go off with one extra card in your hand and one less counter in your opponents, as well as the strong possibility of an additional land drop. And if your opponent doesnt fight over the Tide or he overcounters to deal with the Tide+Remand play, then he's going to be out of gas for the next war you stage. Playing Solidarity is not about being a control deck or about being a combo deck. It's about taking a situation and getting your best deal out of it.

Even if you don't stick your tide, that probably means you're going to be able to stick another one later, or you can probably just combo without it. Spiral Tide is actually really terrible at comboing without a Tide, conidering how expensive its untap effects are. There's nothing like a good Reset for generating mana in a pinch.

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Finaly, Time Spiral just pushes the deck to tier 1.5 at least. Is just so easy to win with just 3 lands in play (reallys is, just try it) and with the same protection or more (I play 3 counterspells in the main and 3 pact of negation on the side alongside 4 FoW) that I believe that if anything changes in the future, Solidarity is condemned to a tier 2-3 status.

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Please post more factual data to explain this statement. Why does it matter how easy a victory is? All that matters to me is that I achieve that victory. Whether a game is extremely easy or brutally challenging, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. If the argument is that Solidarity is too difficult a deck for one to pilot, then I would counter that a player should strive to improve his playskill as much as possible.

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Note: Also, winninng with Blue Sun's Zenith on 90-95% of cases is just better than winning with Brain Freeze in a meta full of Emrakuls.

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First of all, every Solidarity list runs Blue Sun's Zenith in the wishboard, and the deck is absolutely capable of getting the mana to stroke out the opposing deck for all its worth.

Second, if you don't know how to combo off through Gaea's Blessing, then you clearly don't have much experience actually playing Solidarity. It's very easy to use Remands to respond to Emrakul triggers and then wish for a Ravenous Trap or Blue Sun's Zenith to solve the problem. That's one of the first tricks you learn when you play the deck.

I must agree with Zinch here. I don't want to come here to say "this deck is dead" or something like this. In fact, Solidarity is the first deck I've built for Legacy 4 or 5 years ago, and it is the deck i've mos enjoyed to play, and I'm sad to say time isn't being kind to it.

Solidarity can beat almost every deck in the format. But lots of matches - even versus aggro - are so hard, skill and lucky-dependent that I don't think It is worth taking it to a serious tournament.

I think Spiral Tide is better than Solidarity in almost every way: it is faster, has more counters, and is more capable of recovering after fizzling due to the fact that Time Spiral is so powerful. A hand of High Tide and Time Spiral is enough to combo if you have 4 Islands in play. With Turnabout or Cloud of Faeries, 3 Islands are enough. You can also choose if you prefer to kill with Brain Freeze, Blue sun's Zenith or Emrakul. The 1-mana cantrips used by Spiral Tide are so good in sculpting your hand, making many hands with one land keepable, while opt is just weak and Impulse is great, but costs 2.

I really hope Wizards prints something to bring Solidarity back to its former powerlevel - without breaking the format. But I think this is very unlikely by now, and by now I'm sticking with Spiral Tide.

How can Spiral Tide have more countermagic when Solidarity can counter any spell by killing its opponent in response?

Winning with Emrakul is completely superfluous.

Thank you lebarion, that's what I wanted to say, but my english is a little deficient...

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Originally Posted by i-never-smile

I don't think you have your facts straight. Each deck has a similarly-constructed cantrip suite, starting with Brainstorms. The Spiral build uses Ponders and Preordains as its other 8 cantrips, whereas Solidarity uses Impulse and Opt/Peek in that spot. Both decks play 12 cantrips, so it's not as though Spiral Tide has more digging power on the low end of the mana curve. The fact of the matter is that Solidarity is playing instant cantrips to sculpt based on perfect information. That's a notch higher than Preordain's slight strength over Opt and Ponder's mana-efficiency over Impulse. The whole point is to build a hand that plays best to handle the current situation, and doing that on your opponent's turn is worth its weight in gold.

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The difference between the cantrips maybe is not so big, but the fact that all of them cost 1 is a great advantatge if you draw a one land hand (with two 1CC cantrips you can keep, with a brainstorm and an impulse, you cannot). I agree that this point is not that great, but it adds with the rest. I should have added Merchant Scroll also, because it helps a lot.

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Resolving High Tide was already really easy. You play a Tide on your opponent's end step, and if he tries to counter it, you Remand your Tide. Then next turn you go off with one extra card in your hand and one less counter in your opponents, as well as the strong possibility of an additional land drop. And if your opponent doesnt fight over the Tide or he overcounters to deal with the Tide+Remand play, then he's going to be out of gas for the next war you stage. Playing Solidarity is not about being a control deck or about being a combo deck. It's about taking a situation and getting your best deal out of it.

Even if you don't stick your tide, that probably means you're going to be able to stick another one later, or you can probably just combo without it. Spiral Tide is actually really terrible at comboing without a Tide, conidering how expensive its untap effects are. There's nothing like a good Reset for generating mana in a pinch.

Please post more factual data to explain this statement. Why does it matter how easy a victory is? All that matters to me is that I achieve that victory. Whether a game is extremely easy or brutally challenging, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. If the argument is that Solidarity is too difficult a deck for one to pilot, then I would counter that a player should strive to improve his playskill as much as possible.

First of all, every Solidarity list runs Blue Sun's Zenith in the wishboard, and the deck is absolutely capable of getting the mana to stroke out the opposing deck for all its worth.

Second, if you don't know how to combo off through Gaea's Blessing, then you clearly don't have much experience actually playing Solidarity. It's very easy to use Remands to respond to Emrakul triggers and then wish for a Ravenous Trap or Blue Sun's Zenith to solve the problem. That's one of the first tricks you learn when you play the deck.

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I didn't say that resolving High Tide was hard. I said that resolvin 3 or 4 High Tide during the combo turn with Spiral Tide is so easy that is unfair. You should test the deck, the amount of mana you can generate every time you begin your combo is just crazy.
I'm not saying Solidarity cannot win via Blue Sun's Zenith. It's just that it's not common. And I know is posible to win even if your opponent has 4 Emrakuls (or 10 for that matter) in its deck, but it's hard if you are under a clok and he has deffences (realy hard, in fact).

Don't get me wrong. Solidarity was one of my firsts decks in this format and maybe my favourite deck of all I had (a deck with just instants, that can win in response to anything is just... amazing), but it needs help because nowadays it's uncompetitive.

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Originally Posted by Zinch

The difference between the cantrips maybe is not so big, but the fact that all of them cost 1 is a great advantatge if you draw a one land hand (with two 1CC cantrips you can keep, with a brainstorm and an impulse, you cannot). I agree that this point is not that great, but it adds with the rest. I should have added Merchant Scroll also, because it helps a lot.

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The power level of Opt and Impulse is much higher than that of Ponder and Preordain because they work at instant speed, based on your opponent's plays (and, therefore, the most information possible). That's a lot better than the ability to justify terrible 1-land hands that lose to someone Dazing/Spell Piercing/CurseCatchering your cantrip. And, honestly, if I'm playing against a Tide deck and I have those kind of conditional counterspells, I'm throwing them at your early cantrips because that's generally better than saving them for the Tide turn(s).

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I didn't say that resolving High Tide was hard. I said that resolvin 3 or 4 High Tide during the combo turn with Spiral Tide is so easy that is unfair. You should test the deck, the amount of mana you can generate every time you begin your combo is just crazy.
I'm not saying Solidarity cannot win via Blue Sun's Zenith. It's just that it's not common. And I know is posible to win even if your opponent has 4 Emrakuls (or 10 for that matter) in its deck, but it's hard if you are under a clok and he has deffences (realy hard, in fact).

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I don't really care how easy it is to resolve 3-4 High Tides. I don't care about generating a bajillion mana. All I care about is generating enough mana to go off; everything else is excessive. If my entire gameplan revolves around resolving a 6-mana sorcery after resolving a High Tide in my main phase, I don't know how that's honestly considered 'crazy.' I would much rather just play some kind of Dark Ritual combo than screw around with Spirals. Still, given my opinion of the Spiral builds due to my 12+ hours testing that deck, I don't go running into the Spiral Tide thread telling people that the deck is bad because Solidarity is powerful. That's not even a relevant point of discussion.

What decks have a fast clock with 4 Emrakuls? As far as I know, the combo decks running Emrakul are all Show and Tell/Hypergenesis/Sneak Attack variants. As it turns out, those decks don't really put up a clock...rather, they just try to resolve 3-4 mana spells and put bombs on the table. That kind of match-up is won by being the control deck: win counter-wars and produce card advantage. After that, it's not very difficult to combo off enough to deal with a bunch of Blessing effects.

Any deck that actually does run 10 Gaea's Blessing effects is going to have 10 dead cards. That makes it way easier for Solidarity to sit back and sculpt, since the opposing deck is only made up of 83% relevant cards. It's not hard to combo off your entire deck against a deck with no pressure and only a small handful of must-answer spells (and Remand probably tempo-kills the hell out of those kinds of spells). But this doesn't actually matter, since nobody is running more than 4 Emrakuls in decks they take to tournaments.

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Don't get me wrong. Solidarity was one of my firsts decks in this format and maybe my favourite deck of all I had (a deck with just instants, that can win in response to anything is just... amazing), but it needs help because nowadays it's uncompetitive.

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The deck is definitely competitive. I know that you're excited about your new toy with Time Spiral, but that deck is an entirely different concept from this one. If you think that it's better than Solidarity, you're entitled to your opinion. When you come into the Solidarity thread and start claiming that it's dead, you need to put up some stronger proof. Contrasting two decks is no means for explaining why one deck is no longer viable in a metagame. They don't work the same way at all, despite sharing Islands and Tides.

I can understand the argument that Solidarity is a bit too slow for the metagame, or that aggro-control/annoying lock pieces are flooding the metagame, but that has never meant the death of the deck.... If anything, Solidarity is at its peak of metagame viability since M10 came out and shafted Cunning Wish and mana floating from upkeep into draw step. Mystical Tutor's banning shut down the extremely consistent, way faster storm combo decks. The rise of Merfolk (and just the surge of Aether Vial strategies in general) has pushed Counterbalance down the ladder, and forced Counterbalance decks to run more anti-aggro cards. And since ANT is gone, people just aren't dedicating as much of their board to anti-storm slots--or the spells they're running aren't as focused on hating out storm combo. There are hate bears and Mindbreak Traps around, but it's not like every board is flooded with those cards like they were before Mystical got the banhammer.

And, most of all, nobody seems to remember Solidarity. A great many people saw Time Spiral get unbanned and assume that every Tide deck is playing Spirals. Not everybody thinks that way, but even those who remember this deck are typically not that well-practiced in how to play against it...nor are they running as much hate as they would prefer, in most cases. And even then, only other people who have been working with Solidarity are actually going to know all of the newer tools it's running these days. They might figure out Ravenous Trap, Mindbreak Trap, and Blue Sun's Zenith...but are they going to figure Dispel? Cryptic Command? Tide in the Wishboard or 4 in the main (or is the 4th getting boarded into the wish package for game 2)? The gaping hole in peoples' memory of Solidarity is a huge boon for anyone who wishes to pilot the deck. Capitalizing on opponent's misplays and misinformation has always been one of the strong points of this deck, and those factors are stronger than ever.

Yes, I'm excited with the new toy (Time Spiral), but that's because I was tired of crashig against a wall with Solidarity. Even the (in theory) easy MU are hard and you lose more than one (Goblins, Zoo,...) because you cannot go of before they win. So, with Solidarity every MU is an uphill battle nowadays. I was comparing the decks to give some examples, not to say that Solidarity is dead because of Spiral Tide.

@ i-never-smile

Dude you are my new hero! ( i really mean that)

It's really cute after some people almost try to murder me because i said that solidarity was really hard to play and now everyone saying they can't play the deck because it's to hard to play...

Yeah Spiral Tide is easier to play, and easier to disrupt, to interrupt the combo and etc... Overall it's an easier way of playing tide decks...
Btw damn! i never had any problem dealing with Emrakul! What's the problem in Emrakul after all?! As counterbalanced decks goes since i started to train and study the match i didn't loss to it but ok...

So go on playing your easy way but avoid coming here and speak of something you clearly never understand... XOXO --'

But it's cute seeing that the persons that wanted to play with sorcerys have their chance with Spiral Tide and finally stop experimenting crazy shits on solidarity...

And i read somewhere a doubt vs merfolks: Dude snap and chain of vapor to gain time (remember snap can and should be used on mutavault) and dispel but not Mindbreak Trap since many times they relay on the Cursecatcher

@ i-never-smile and Seraphus, I completely agree with you. I have been playing this deck for some time now and I am just starting to get the hang of it :) It is a hard deck to play. If you master it you will perform wonders with it, I promise you. Me and my friends tend to sit down and playtest many decks. When I am playtesting Solidarity one game could take over a hour just analyzing the different options and what is the best for the typical situation! I just love this deck!!!

I must say that I was close with the hype of Time Spiral, but after some thoughts about it I turned my back on it. You can not play the stack and use it in your favour. How are the matchups against control? Remember, he also get a new hand which could be full of counters etc, and he also benefits from High Tide.

In terms of Solidarity, I can fish my opponent of counters or other things and when I go off I can go off relaxed as soon as it resolves and most important, I can go off whenever I feel like :). In terms of Time Spiral, well you need to consider each time when Time Spiral resolves that your opponent get new fresh cards that you might need to battle through.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who isn't swayed by sorceries.

@Seraphus: I'll try out Snap. That seems like the perfect way to slow down Merfolk's clock. I like that you can bounce a lord and cut the damage in half for a turn, and still dig in the same turn. At worst, it's another untap effect that aids with the combo turn (so it's removal that isn't dead). It's good against Zoo and some other creature decks, too, so it's not too narrow to sideboard.

I'm also having issues with the Painter match-up, but I think I just need to practice more against that type of deck so I can understand the match-up better. I'm not really accustomed to the pace at which it plays.

tell me what's the version of painter you'r talking about and i try to make a strategy for you to train ;)