[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Gratz on the finish. I saw you run no canopies. Do you not like them? Even in builds with thoctar I usually like to have one or two.

I was going to comment on no md jitte since I know how much you love that card but I see you already spoke about it.

You didn't find 4 mancers to be too many? I usually run 3 and whenever I run 4 I feel like I end up with multiples too often.

I agree with your analysis of library, but I still like it against anything that plays wasteland since it helps me draw out of mana screw. Sometimes I side one out in the mirror, but not always. Do you side them out for the mirror?

How do you generally feel about this deck's thresh matchup? I've lost to it very few times, but I keep seeing people say it's a bad mu for us? I'm just curious to your thoughts since you've probably played the matchup a lot I assume.

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I ran Canopy for about 4 months or so when i picked up the deck, and it was alright at best for me. I often found myself having to choose between drawing a free card or playing a spell, and it messed up my Ape/Nacatl land stipulation too many times. I guess i got unlucky and drew it alot or something, so i cut it in favor of another fetch and kept adding fetches. It's a fine card but hasn't been good to me.

Yeah i think I'm going to add Jitte back in the main since more Eva Green/Suicide Black/Random aggro decks are gaining popularity again. It was MVP in the matches i used it in.

I also like playing 21 lands. Not many Zoo players can say that they've had there turn one land stifled and their second Wasted and recover, but the one extra land has mattered for me alot. Sure some games I'll get a land heavy hand, but it's worth it in the other matchups.

Mancer was good. I don't see why people jerk off to him though. I liked running 4 because he IS going to die in most situations because people have rational and irrational fears about him, so they waste removal, and i keep my other creatures. Plus he is a good card.

I didn't side them out in the mirror because i felt like in the mirror you either win quick or get into topdeck mode, which happened to me games 2 and 3, so it was worth it. Lightning Helix is key here and fetching to shuffle garbage away when you need removal is awesome. I boarded Swords in against the mirror and they are really that good.

I feel like they're mana denial package can fuck you up, and since they have filtering effects to help, that it's worse off then say EvaGreen. Their bolts kills your creatures, BUT most of your creatures trade with Mongoose in combat so that is a positive. They just filter cards better, but their threats are lacking so if you land enough you'll get through.

I also run 21 lands, and I really like that configuration. I agree with you there.

Yeah, I kinda figured that was the case with library. I often find that in the mirror whoever can stick library longest has a huge advantage, and will always sack a pridemage to take one out. Helix becoming an almost cantrip with library in play is also awesome. I usually side the one out when my opponent is playing what looks like an outdated version since I don't need it as much, and depending on how aggressive they play. I don't always want to spend two mana on it if they're beating down the gates with prices, fireblasts, and random stuff like hellspark elemental.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

How do you generally feel about this deck's thresh matchup? I've lost to it very few times, but I keep seeing people say it's a bad mu for us? I'm just curious to your thoughts since you've probably played the matchup a lot I assume.

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You should take your opponents play skill into account, the reason for this is that playing dave G with solidaridy or caplin with tempo thresh are largely differant than playing a random scrub with the deck. However if your still having problems thats not good unless they run a funky configuration.

Actually Dave Gearhart is pretty bad with solidarity. Just ask him about abeyance.

To be fair i was playing against an opponent with TONS of skill with Tempo Thresh, and in the almost 2 years playing with him that's all he's played. So he knows the deck.

Is there any reason people are playing Kird ape over Step Lynx still?

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

Is there any reason people are playing Kird ape over Step Lynx still?

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Steppe Lynx won't always be a 2/3, or a 4/5. Neither will Kird Ape but Ape makes the stipulation easier, and is better vs Merfolk/Goblins.

Also, Steppe forces you to run more fetches and in my opinion make your deck, the whole super fast Fireblast version. Because he is ONLY good at attacking.

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

Is there any reason people are playing Kird ape over Step Lynx still?

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Many of them, least of which not being the card is terrible in this deck... try goyf sligh if that is what you are looking for

Ha ha ok fair enough. Those reasons are plenty good.

Now that there is this trend of maindecking several Firespouts, has anyone thought about a plan to work around them, side or main? Only thing that I've thought of so far is increasing the Thoctar/Knight count by one.

Also my current zoo list:
4x wild nacatl
4x steppe lynx
4x grim lavamancer
4x qasali pridemage
4x tarmogoyf
2x knight of the reliquary
4x lightning bolt
3x chain lightning
4x path to exile
1x jitte
1x price of progress
2x Sylvan Library
2x Fireblast
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Arid Mesa
3x Horizon Canopy
SB
2x Pyroblast
3x Krosan Grip
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Jitte
2x Price of Progress
4x open slots for local meta (orim's chant, jotun grunt/tormod's crypt, choke, swords to plowshares, vexing shusher)

@oneiros76: I don't see the point in playing around it unless you know that they have it. Then just keep a one drop and try to bait it. Running slower creatures or switching around the deck isn't the answer, the answer is playing smart.

@Baileyarch: The point in changing the deck around it is that Firespout is a powerful card/change to combat zoo, the same reason why you would change any deck when responding to a metagame. I wouldn't suggest a drastic change to the creature base or anything, that would obviously make the deck weaker, but something like -1 Fireblast or mancer or other non-bolt burn spell for another knight/thoctar. While keeping a dude in hand is definitely the right play some of the time, Firespout puts us in an awkward position because its still at least a 2 for 1 whenever its worth playing, and while you're slowing yourself down by playing around it they'll be playing War Monks and Counterbalace/Top.

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Originally Posted by oneiros76

@Baileyarch: The point in changing the deck around it is that Firespout is a powerful card/change to combat zoo, the same reason why you would change any deck when responding to a metagame. I wouldn't suggest a drastic change to the creature base or anything, that would obviously make the deck weaker, but something like -1 Fireblast or mancer or other non-bolt burn spell for another knight/thoctar. While keeping a dude in hand is definitely the right play some of the time, Firespout puts us in an awkward position because its still at least a 2 for 1 whenever its worth playing, and while you're slowing yourself down by playing around it they'll be playing War Monks and Counterbalace/Top.

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To me Firespout is just hate. You gotta play through the hate. Adding another 3 drop isn't the right answer if any. People don't understand that this deck doesn't hit 3 land a quarter of it's games, and nonbasic hate is good against us as well, so it makes hitting 3 land even weaker.

And some games that just happens. You just lose when the opposing deck does what it's supposed to do.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

To me Firespout is just hate. You gotta play through the hate. Adding another 3 drop isn't the right answer if any. People don't understand that this deck doesn't hit 3 land a quarter of it's games, and nonbasic hate is good against us as well, so it makes hitting 3 land even weaker.

And some games that just happens. You just lose when the opposing deck does what it's supposed to do.

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So true... the answer is consistency, efficiency, speed and power... more three drops kills kittens somewhere out there...

Has anyone ever tried Terravore in a heavily Zoo/Thresh/Dredge/Loam meta? It seems like it could punch in for some real damage. And it tramples, which helps with those wimpy little Landstill soldiers.

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Originally Posted by Gibsonmac

So true... the answer is consistency, efficiency, speed and power... more three drops kills kittens somewhere out there...

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Did you say kills kittens?

@Lox: I think people understand how the mana works out in this deck just fine, assuming they've played the deck a couple times. The deck can be counted on to hit 3 land in its games. I guess I don't see that an additional 3 cost spell of 2 different colors is too much of a liability, considering that it helps against metagame hate like Firespout, is harder to hit with counterbalance, engineered explosives, and red elemental blasts, and adds another fat creature to help win mirrors. And I agree that Firespout is hate, but while its in the right deck it is powerful hate that can't always just be played through.

@Gib: And if the metagame adjusts to take away those things, shouldn't we adjust too?

So my suggestion so far is +1 Knight, -1 Fireblast. I probably would have gone with Lavamancer, but I wanted to keep 4 in my main since my matchup against Goblins and Merfolk is slightly worse with Steppe Lynx replacing Kird Ape. I'm still testing Lynx btw, so far he's been really good for me, while he can sit around for a bit just being a dork, when he turns into another Tarmogoyf when hitting a fetch he's reeeally good, early or late game. Ha and drawing fetch, fetching a land then sacking the land to Knight, searching for fetch then fetching he's a 8/9! Living the dream indeed.

@Pastor: ha that seems awesome! He's always been one of my favorite creatures, he's a ton of fun to smash people with. I think his problem is that he's not 100% reliably huge and doesn't do any tricks, which is what you would want for that cost. I'd play him casually though for sure, if anything to bring me back to my terrageddon days and being able to yell TERRAVORE SMASH as you windmill him into play.

@oneiros76: If people knew how the mana in the deck worked, then more 3 drops wouldn't be suggested. Also Fireblast is terrible, and i would cut every copy that you play. I would rather run PoP than Fireblast. It's too much of a liability nowadays.

And the only deck i know that runs maindeck sweepers are Landstill and Supreme Blue. Landstill runs Explosives and WOG, but WOG is kinda slow in my opinion, and you can just goldfish them anyway. Explosives have caught me with my pants down more than a few games, so hope for the best. I've played my variant of Surpeme Blue to top 8 roughly 6 or 7 times in the past 2 months, and just as you can cast it, it's like WOG and you could just kill your opponent. Most players won't Firespout immediately unless you just overextend into it. And i guess i don't overextend much.

Most are in the sideboard, and if you know they're bringing it in then just take stuff Firespout will hose out.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

@oneiros76: If people knew how the mana in the deck worked, then more 3 drops wouldn't be suggested. Also Fireblast is terrible, and i would cut every copy that you play. I would rather run PoP than Fireblast. It's too much of a liability nowadays.

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Tell that to Hatfield...

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Originally Posted by Gibsonmac

Tell that to Hatfield...

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I don't see what difference that makes. I'd announce it over a microphone to the entire world if i could.