[Deck] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

I dunno man I've won a metric shit ton of games on the back of snapcaster price. I've actually been playing ur counterburn since before delver got printed, but it was never any good until delver and snapcaster were printed. My first list resembling modern UR didn't actually run delver, I thought it was too inconsistent, lol. I built the deck around snapcaster.

So keeping that in mind: If you want to win ASAP, and snapcaster helps you win, and snapcaster costs 3-4 mana, why would you willingly bounce your own lands when you could just run more cards that kill your opponent? That's my logic anyway. You also want the majority of your spells to be good snapcaster targets, which daze is not. Snapping back spell pierce can be game changing. And it's not that daze can't also be gamechanging but it's nice to be able to flash back counters mid-lategame

You're still coming across really confrontation by the way, it's hard to have an actual conversation with you because of your "I know best and am better than you" tone.

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Completely agree, Snapcaster, Price is the best feeling in the world.

well the bauble buffs the spear and gives you more information. also it cycles for free through your deck so you find the threats faster. the petal synergizes very very well with treasure cruise, also buffs the spear and gives you nice t1 plays. its no problem to cast cruise turn1 and on turn2 again

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

well the bauble buffs the spear and gives you more information. also it cycles for free through your deck so you find the threats faster. the petal synergizes very very well with treasure cruise, also buffs the spear and gives you nice t1 plays. its no problem to cast cruise turn1

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It's a really poor cycle though. It waits a whole turn to replace itself, that sucks. Plus the information is just one card. It's just really bad imo. Run more business.

I don't think lotus is any better than fetchlands. They both feed your graveyard but one sticks around. Again, don't run bad cards just to buff swiftblade.

And what's the point of turn 1 treasure cruise without a threat out? Not even vintage decks go turn 1 recall every time they have it in their opening 7, you have to establish a board presence (or just play oath, which is basically the same thing) before you start building card advantage.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

I build the deck a strictly bit more forward


4 Treasure Cruise
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
3 Wasteland
2 Thought Scour
1 Forked Bolt
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Forked Bolt

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I would really like this list if it has pyromancer in it. I mean, the power of the deck is that the massive ammount of cantrips feeds swiftspear AND pyromancer. I think it seems flat and underpowered to depend only on swiftspear as it may get removed, and also isn't that fast of a clock even if you play 3 spells per turn.

ok, youre right. pyromancer is much better with petals now. before he was kinda clunky, but now you can cast it turn1. too bad he doesnt trigger on it ;) the baubles probalby just too cute but petals is the way to go.

4 Treasure Cruise
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Lotus Petal
3 Wasteland
2 Thought Scour
1 Forked Bolt
4 Young Pyromancer
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Forked Bolt

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

ok

4 Treasure Cruise
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Lotus Petal
3 Wasteland
2 Thought Scour
1 Forked Bolt
4 Young Pyromancer
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Forked Bolt

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You have 12 "real" lands, 3 wastelands, and 4 temporary mana. That means you have 16 total colored mana sources, 4 or which can only be used once.

So what's the advantage of lotus petal over 2 more fetches and 1 of each basic? If the only reason you're running a card which is almost always worse than a land is to buff swiftspear you should probably replace them with lands. Unless there's something I'm somehow missing? You only have 4 cards more than 1 mana so what do you need the burst of mana for? I mean at this rate why not run 10 lands, lotus, and land grant?

Actually come to think of it that sounds really cool with young pyromancer. Oh man can you imagine turn 1 pyro with lotus into land grant, that would be so sick.

You should totally run land grant like all those oldschool 10 land stompy decks, that'd be awesome

land grant only fetches forest, so its kinda useless unless you build some wicked zoo list with it

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

land grant only fetches forest, so its kinda useless unless you build some wicked zoo list with it

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Yep, forgot that part. My bad.

Does anyone has a revision of Bob Huang list that runs wastelands? I find it funny he doesn't run them. He appears to favor going full aggro instead.

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

So keeping that in mind: If you want to win ASAP, and snapcaster helps you win, and snapcaster costs 3-4 mana, why would you willingly bounce your own lands when you could just run more cards that kill your opponent? That's my logic anyway. You also want the majority of your spells to be good snapcaster targets, which daze is not. Snapping back spell pierce can be game changing. And it's not that daze can't also be gamechanging but it's nice to be able to flash back counters mid-lategame

You're still coming across really confrontation by the way, it's hard to have an actual conversation with you because of your "I know best and am better than you" tone.

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Look, I don't care if I don't sound friendly or sympathetic to you. I am not here to comfort everyone and exchange woven bracelets. May I sound like a dick sometimes? Sure. At least I provide coherent arguments for the stuff I post.

That being said, in usual builds with 4 Snapcaster Mages and 2 PoPs SM + PoP-Flashback is rare compared to Beats + Bolts or simple PoPs.
Hitting three lands is fairly easy and if Snapcaster flashbacks Bolt, Pierce or Brainstorm he has already done enough, being the additional body he is. Do you seriously remember that many times where you didn't have a useful target for the mage? I cannot think of a single one.
To use your argument against you: Why would you willingly pitch your own cards when you could just run more cards that kill your opponent? Right, because of Manaless-Protection and to force stuff through. Same applies for Daze.

I also don't know why you are making this a Daze vs. Pierce now, since this was about Daze vs. GG and people (including me) have been running Dazes and Pierces in conjunction for years now - in UR Delver.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I find it funny he doesn't run them. He appears to favor going full aggro instead.

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The problem is that pure aggro is the only option once you fill your deck with twenty cantrips and twelve creatures. You can say "oh, but he might get blown out by" or "wouldn't it be so cool if", but the fact of the matter is that swinging across the table with more shit than your opponent can deal with is the only path you can take. Adding Wasteland doesn't improve any match-ups and it decreases the consistency of the deck.

I've found wasteland to be very good in UR Delver even when the deck ran Goblin Guide. It's basically a time walk and let's you swing an extra turn with your guys before they drop their bombs. Also it gives Daze extra effectiveness and makes the card useful even into the mid game. If my opponent Durdles a bit cantripping for lands, wasteland has already done it's job. Also this deck is not mana intensive so it can dedicate slots to wasteland.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Also this deck is not mana intensive so it can dedicate slots to wasteland.

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The deck is not mana intensive, no, but it is source light. Which of those lands do you want to take out for Wasteland? I hear thirteen colored mana sources is perfect. Or maybe you can take out some Lightning Bolts?

Wasteland is unnecessary and creates inconsistency. No amount of "if I'm on the play and have a Daze I can get another Shock out of my Goblin Guide!" invalidates those problems.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

The deck is not mana intensive, no, but it is source light. Which of those lands do you want to take out for Wasteland? I hear thirteen colored mana sources is perfect. Or maybe you can take out some Lightning Bolts?

Wasteland is unnecessary and creates inconsistency. No amount of "if I'm on the play and have a Daze I can get another Shock out of my Goblin Guide!" invalidates those problems.

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I agree, ur delver isn't a tempo deck it's an aggro deck through and through.

At least, it should be. You can build it as a tempo deck but I don't see the point since rug does the same thing better.

I would agree with you but RUG is dead since it is the only Delver deck that cannot run Cruise. I think Bob's list is not quite full aggro because he still does not play Price of Progress and to the Dome cards like Fireblast. Anyway I will try with and without wastelands.

I was planning on running the following manabase:
3 Volcanic
1 island
1 mountain
10 fetches
3 wastelands

I'd cut the single chain lightning for the extra land.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I would agree with you but RUG is dead since it is the only Delver deck that cannot run Cruise. I think Bob's list is not quite full aggro because he still does not play Price of Progress and to the Dome cards like Fireblast. Anyway I will try with and without wastelands.

I was planning on running the following manabase:
3 Volcanic
1 island
1 mountain
10 fetches
3 wastelands

I'd cut the single chain lightning for the extra land.

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How does any goyf deck run cruise though? The only reason UR can do it is because you fill your graveyard but don't care about it. I can't really see BUG running cruise. Feels like UWR is gonna be the new tempo/control deck.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Does anyone has a revision of Bob Huang list that runs wastelands? I find it funny he doesn't run them. He appears to favor going full aggro instead.

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I've been playing his list all day today and I've won quite a few games because I managed to play 3 or even 4 spells in a turn with Pyromancer or Swiftspear in play. The way the list is constructed wasteland doesn't help you cast almost anything so I don't think you should count it as part of the mana base but rather of the disruption package.
I've also felt that the mana base is pretty tight, specially in games that involve wasteland or Hymn/lili taking lands out of your hand. I've cantripped looking for lands somewhat often since with 3 lands and Pyro/Swiftspear you can really "go off" out of nowhere. Having the basics in play instead of Volcs have sometimes been a problem too since the deck is so color intensive. I wouldn't really love taking actual lands for wastelands.

So if you want to play wastelands I think you have to remove spells, not lands. Which ones are you going to take out? No matter what you take, you're hurting the Pyromancer / Swiftspear plan if not the Treasure Cruise one too for the chance of a blowout with wasteland and to make your dazes a little better.

I love wasteland as a card, specially in a deck that runs daze, but I don't think that's what this list is about. Maybe now that we have some proof of how awesome TC someone can build a good list that incorporates TC + wasteland, but I don't think it'll just be "Huang's list with wastelands". Eh, maybe I'm wrong, I suck at predicting things.

BUG can run 2 comfortably, 3 might be a stretch. Goyf can survive on the opponents yard and 1-2 odd card types from your own yard. But BUG Delver definitely cannot run the full set. Uwr delver may be able to run a full set but might suffer from clunkiness so may end up running 3 only.

I also play UWR Delver and im currently running 3 copies of Cruise to great success. Casting 2 per game is effortless.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

BUG can run 2 comfortably, 3 might be a stretch. Goyf can survive on the opponents yard and 1-2 odd card types from your own yard. But BUG Delver definitely cannot run the full set. Uwr delver may be able to run a full set but might suffer from clunkiness so may end up running 3 only.

I also play UWR Delver and im currently running 3 copies of Cruise to great success. Casting 2 per game is effortless.

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I'm still not convinced 4 is right for THIS deck. Seems too likely you'll draw them when they're dead.

I also want to cut daze. Maybe gut shot!



(That was a joke don't worry)

My buddy inspired me to put together the UR Delver "Burn" list last week (good timing, Kyle). After seeing Bob's results and deck from this pas weekend, I wanted to see if I could fit in treasure Cruise into the more burn-focused deck. This is very rough draft. Once Khans is released online, I can do some testing. Until then I may jam a few games with friends.


2 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa

3 Treasure Cruise
4 Goblin guide - (Will also test with 4 Monastary Swiftspear in this slot)
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing needle
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod


Do you see any glaring holes? I doubt this is optimal, but I think it is a good place to start. I am interested to see if I can get the Treasure Cruise and Snapcaster Mage in the same deck and not have them stepping on each others toes the entire game.