^ Sweet thanks for the feedback! Let us know how it goes with your changes.
@ironclad - great report!
Printable View
^ Sweet thanks for the feedback! Let us know how it goes with your changes.
@ironclad - great report!
@ironclad
I've been having success vs Grixis, with 1 loss in the last roughly 10 times I've played it in tournaments. One reason is I have a 3rd Disfigure. The card is great in many matchups (D&T, Elves, any Delver deck, Mirror, Infect, the list goes on..). Vs Grixis in particular, I see you have a G Charm instead of the 3rd Disfigure, but it can be way too slow, esp on the draw. It doesn't kill a flipped Delver or Deathrite either. You want to kill Pyromancer and Deathrite as soon as they are played, which Disfigure allows you to do, while also being able to make other plays.
Another reason is I play 23 land and board in the Scrubland vs them (I do this alot vs mana denial decks like D&T). Every card we play is so much more powerful, so we just want to be able to cast them, so having 24 lands post board helps that.
A 3rd reason is I board out Force. I used to keep it in, or board out just 1, but I realized I don't like Force. Once again, our deck is so powerful vs them that we have no cards we want to pitch to Force besides another Force. I'd rather be drawing any creature in our deck or removal instead of Forces. Feels like a brick to me vs them.
I also don't like the Hymns because it's tough on the mana base and is once again, a bad draw just like Force and also Visions if you can't set it up and are behind on board.
There are so many cards that do nothing if you are behind on the board, so post board I try to eliminate that as much as possible because they can't deal with the rest of our deck.
The last reason is I'm not afraid to mulligan. If I know I'm playing vs Grixis I will try my best to keep a mana heavy hand. We mulligan very well and can rebuild the cards back up quickly and easily. As long as we can cast our spells it's hard to lose.
Hope this helps!
Against Grixis in the Finals:
My boarding plan would be:
OTD:
+2 Disfigure
+1 G.Charm
+1 Pithing Needle (Naming Wasteland)
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Scrubland
-2 Hymn
-1 Jace
-1 Wasteland
-1 AV
-1 FOW
Not sure about the last 2, could also see cutting Lili or Pulse since they are really slow. NOSB is just to clunky. If I get to 4/5 Mana the game should be won anyway. Also I could see leaving the Wasteland in to up the land count.
OTP:
+2 Disfigure
+1 G.Charm
+1 Pithing Needle (Naming Wasteland)
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Scrubland
-1 Jace
-1 Wasteland
-4 FOW
Again maybe Wasteland in, out another spell
So how does everyone feel about thing in the ice? Better than goyf?
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by insnebob1889
God no. Shardless is the best Goyf deck in Legacy. At best this could be played alongside Goyf in some small number. Shardless doesn't spam instants and sorceries like other blue decks can so it's not gonna flip as fast as delver could do it. TITI is also a godawful topdeck whereas Goyf is typically a godly one.Quote:
Originally Posted by insnebob1889
Better than Tarmogoyf, not by a mile. But by no means does that mean it doesn't have a place in the deck. Considering the synergy with Baleful Strix and Shardless Agent, Thing in the Ice could be a fantastic addition.Quote:
Originally Posted by insnebob1889
However, the current designs of Shardless BUG really don't mesh well with abusing the power of the card. As is, there aren't enough cheap spells to chain, so you get bottle-necked into casting them at a slower rate compared to decks utilizing more cantrips. That, and the higher creature-to-spell ratio also doesn't help it much. So it will likely spawn a separate version of the deck, whether with Therapy/Probe and Ponder or some other combination of that while sacrificing something else. Question is if Thing in the Ice ends up as a strong enough card to warrant such a drastic shift.
what do you guys think of meddling mage in the sideboard? is it that good that makes it worth using a sideboard slot with a scrubland? I always feel combo MU to be too close and I cant play them comfortably but do 3 meddling mages give a better result than 3 vendilions? Also, I am considering running one hissing quagmire instead of the second creeping, I think it helps against eldrazi, fixes mana in a better way and can help in the mirror. Recently im not finding the creeping utility enough to justify two copies.
I'm personally very happy with 4 Mages sideboard with a Savannah (I use a Lejay-style list with no hymns). The mages are great against combo decks and lands, our worst matchups. Not to mention they're super versatile since they can prevent casting any card. The extra land I actually bring in against delver/DnT decks that try to attack your mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by surface33
I don't run any cliques in my list and while it is a great card, shardless is very much a tap-out style control deck. If we're holding up mana, it's a huge signal for our opponent- very dissimilar from a reactionary deck.
I can't comment too much on the hissing quagmire, I run no tar pits and 4 wastelands. The etb tapped on the tar pits is the big breaker for me. It's also a liability against decks running bolt/swords/disfigure and can turn into almost a time walk since it "uses" 4 mana to attack. Wasteland, even though it doesn't tap for color, gives the deck another plan of attack and could lead to some easy game wins. Its also very good against eldrazi stompy- thats how they get all of their acceleration. It's all personal choice, of course- jam some games and see how it feels for you!
Have any of you guys running 3-4 Wasteland ever played Life from the Loam in your sideboard? Seems like it would be able to give you another angle of attack in grindy matchups and big mana decks where you can do the aggro loam wasteland you out of the game thing, while giving you a bit of protection from delver decks completely blowing you out. Dunno if it's any good or not but just wanted to hear some thoughts.
I actually tried this just this morning, with 2 Surgical Extractions in the sideboard as well (had to cut the Mages for this). I ended up going 4-1 in the league (thanks to 2 pairings against BUG Delver), also beating Infect and Dredge but losing a close game to Elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
I tried boarding out all Goyfs vs elves a la Gerry Thompson, but he had a double glimpse turn and a single glimpse turn and even though every time I passed back to him he had absolutely no creatures he still managed to get enough of them in 1 turn to make a lethal Crater. I must have gone through 3/4 of my deck and removal spell after removal spell, but never got the Night of Souls' Betrayal.
The surgicals were of course amazing vs Dredge, but I am really wanting to see how the Loam + Surgical plan affects the Lands matchup.
As far as Thing in the Ice, I have to imagine maybe people play 1 in the slot that is sometimes occupied by the 13th creature (baby Jace, 3rd Baleful, Tasigur etc). It will be great in some deck, that's for sure, but I don't know if Shardless will be the one.
I will try cutting the top-heavy cards in the Grixis matchup, I have been leaving Jace in because he can bounce Angler but I don't think it is enough.
Something else funny, my local store has been having 15 proxy vintage night and I have been playing Shardless with a couple lands taken out for proxied moxen and the brainstorms 2-4 replaced with Timewalk/Ancestral Recall and a single Trygon Predator instead of Baleful Strix 3. I have gotten 2nd the past couple of times (the Merfolk guy always gets 1st), beating mostly Oath/Storm/Mentor and a couple close calls against shops. The "true" vintage players get so pissed losing to a legacy deck XD
i play with loam in the sideboard. would only reccommend it if youre running 4 wasteland. its great against the other wasteland decks and has won lands matchups for me... its good against eldrazi if you survive long enough to lock them... problems: most of the time i feel like im already winning if i have enough time to waste lock them out. if im topdecking and i draw loam its terrible. im really trying to make my sideboard nuts and bolts strong tools right now, no nonbos and no cute tricks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
im currently playing discardless version with md sylvan and 3 lili/2 jace and a ponder... ive actually been thinking about dropping the ponder for a second strix....
sideboard is:
1 scrub
4 meddling
3 thoughtseize
1 duress
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 grafdiggers cage
1 disfigure
1 night of souls
1 life from the loam
i want to fit in more pointed removal like a second disfigure.... today ill try the second disfigure instead of loam and the second strix.
Tried Loam in my playgroup tonight. Only played one matchup where I really wanted to board it in (BUG Delver) but it straight up won me a game I might not have won otherwise. Still, I'm kinda with you minyafriend that it might be more of a cute trick than legit staple. Although if it actually gives me a fighting chance against lands (I don't play mages) then it might be worth testing further.
I'd definitely try and find room for the 2nd Strix. It's been one of my favorite cards recently (Delver and Eldrazi is everywhere). When Strix is good, it's so good, and replacing itself and pitching to FoW helps minimize the downside.
Went 4-1 again in today's league.
Burning Reanimator: 0-2 (I misplayed, in short I thought he was tin fins because I saw Children of Korlis, so I kept up a DRS for instant speed reanimation g2 but he only had sorcery speed. THis allowed him enough time to get a pyroclasm and reanimate a Grave Titan which created tokens that killed me after GT traded with a Strix. Live and learn I guess)
Tin Fins: 2-1
Eldrazi: 2-0
Shardless Mirror: 2-0
Legend Miracles: 2-0
I am really liking the Life from the Loam and the 2 Surgical Extractions so far. Yet to play lands with them, but I am thinking they will be really good in tandem with the 3 Wastelands and 3 Baleful Strix (actually being able to block Marit for a turn can be so crucial)
I know these interactions have been explored before on this thread but I couldn't help but bring up that surgical is a very bad cascade flip. Although great cards, Loam/ waste/ surgical seems like more of a bug delver thing and less synergistic with shardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I was watching the fire and dice matchup of you vs goblins and the first thing I noticed was that after your first Liliana you make him sac his only creature and then you aggressively +1 a brainstorm and then an ancestral visions. I notice you have no blue but you do have a deathrite. I also understand our deck performs well in topdeck mode but sometimes I'm scared to go all in on my lili plus one until I've gotten all the value I can out of my current hand. Is this matchup a good example of how you typically use lili or just how you use her against decks like goblins.
I went 4-1 in another league this morning with this list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Life from the Loam
Miracles: 2-0
Infect: 1-2
Aggro Loam: 2-1
Miracles: 2-0
Oops All Spells: 2-0
This list feels so consistent and powerful. Surgicals were very key in the Aggro Loam and Oops all Spells matchups. I could have even gone 2-0 vs Aggro Loam, but I sideboarded incorrectly thinking he was Lands g1 (cut 2 Abrupt Decay which would have been nice vs Chalice @ 1).
Infect just had the turn 2 invig + berserk g1 and the infinite creature draw game 3.
Surgical can be a crappy cascade, but it is almost never dead vs the decks we want it vs (as opposed to something like Flusterstorm which is a completely dead cascade). If you hit it off a cascade vs something like Reanimator when they don't have a good target you can just not cast it, and then it can be found with Brainstorm/Ancestral after a shuffle. I am fine with the % of the time I cascade into it and it is dead, it is just such a valuable card vs bad matchups like Loam and Lands (not to mention often winning on the spot against Reanimator, Tin Fins, Oops all Spells, Zombardment, ANT etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by minyafriend
I use Lili pretty aggressively most of the time. I felt pretty confident that as long as I can keep lili alive he couldn't win. To do that, I had to leave DRS back on defense against a haste threat, and I definitely wanted to attack his hand and also be able to -2 if he got a good creature. It could be those were not correct, I just usually err on the side of aggression due to my nature and deck history. I try to play Shardless like a zoo deck, if that makes any sense (it's a stretch of a comparison I know).
@ironclad8690
Ill recommend you trying the 4 hymn version, im having a really good win% and has a lot of synergy with SE
Cool! What do you cut for the 2 extra hymns?Quote:
Originally Posted by surface33
I play your exact same list except for 2 baleful main 1 side and 3 AV in the 75. I started running 4 AV but lost a couple of games where I draw 2 or 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Hey guys! Is this the same deck as BUG Delver or is that a different deck? If so is there a separate thread for BUG Delver? I'm a bit confused because I thought BUG Delver didn't play Shardless Agent. Thanks!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk