[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

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Originally Posted by Jo11ygrnreefer

If your having trouble with infect, try using Melira, basically an auto win if she resolves. Or, a singlton Life From the Loam extends our Wastelands and helps with Delver.

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Melira is just a bit *too* narrow, and unless a deck was running Green Sun's Zenith and/or Infect made up a significant portion of the metagame, I'd feel bad running it. Plus, Infect often runs some number of Submerge or other removal/counter spells, so she's not even guaranteed to win you the game.

Loam though is a good option. It fell out of popularity around the time DRS and Rest in Peace were overplayed, but now with a mixed-meta it's a very powerful option to gain pseudo-card advantage (and sometimes steal games via Wasteland recursion).

Some might say Dread of Night is *too* narrow, but given how prevalent X/1 white creatures are and also how incredibly bad BUG tends to do against those sort of decks, I see the value in spending a slot for it. I see DnT doing really well tournament after tournament, and yet people don't want to spend a slot on a 1-mana 'I win' card. We do it for Graveyard strategies with Cage, why not White creatures?

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Originally Posted by wcm8

We do it for Graveyard strategies with Cage, why not White creatures?

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Because "graveyard strategies" is a very universal term. Cage is useful against Reanimator and Elves and Dredge and sometimes ANT. Surgical Extraction is useful against Reanimator and Dredge and Loam and Lands and Punishing Fire and various combos and whatever else you feel like squeezing it in against. Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus are useful against Reanimator and Dredge and Loam and Lands and Maverick and RUG and Punishing Fire and whatever else you feel like squeezing it in against.

Dread of Night is useful against Death and Taxes. Which is a fine choice, I guess. Kind of. Not really. But regardless, you shouldn't justify Dread of Night by saying that the graveyard hate we choose to run has as narrow of an application.


Edit: Also, if you were trying to make a point rather than a suggestion by bringing up Dread of Night, it was lost on me.

Dread of Night is a haymaker against decks that are typically one of the hardest matchups for BUG.

'White Creatures' are actually fairly numerous: Thalia, Mother of Runes, Lingering Souls, Monastery Mentor, Flicker wisp, Mangara, etc... Of course you should be running 2-3 copies of Golgari Charm and/or Marsh Casualities in your SB, but DoN is better because it handles these problems proactively, reactively, and definitively. White creature decks attack BUG's strategy by ignoring counterspells (Cavern of Souls, Aether Vial), overloading on creatures so our point removal is weak, taxing our mana base, clearing our graveyard, and even Hymn to Tourach is a liability due to their strategic redundancy and cards like Wilt Leaf Liege.

And if they *really* want to stomp on BUG, they run Mirran Crusader.

It seems to be to be a horrible decision to ignore a popular Tier 1 strategy if you actually want to win a tournament. You can hope to dodge this matchup in the Swiss rounds, but DnT has consistently been showing up in Top 8s everywhere. It's time BUG starts acknowledging it as a real threat instead of some fringe, cute, 'budget' deck.

All I'm suggesting is that BUG decks start running 1-2 copies of Dread of Night.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

All I'm suggesting is that BUG decks start running 1-2 copies of Dread of Night.

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In place of what? If I could, I would probably be packing something close to a twenty-six card sideboard. But the truth is that you have to pick your battles. You would sacrifice universally applicable sideboard cards in order to dedicate cards towards marginally improving an only uncomfortable match-up?

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

In place of what? If I could, I would probably be packing something close to a twenty-six card sideboard. But the truth is that you have to pick your battles. You would sacrifice universally applicable sideboard cards in order to dedicate cards towards marginally improving an only uncomfortable match-up?

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Picking your battles is indeed the conundrum. You only have 15 slots to work with, and those will also be based largely on what your main 60 looks like.

Lately I've dropped Hymn and am playing a 3/3 split of Spell Pierce and Stifle + 3 Dark Confidant + 1 TNN due to changes in my local metagame (plenty of Control and Combo decks, but also a fair amount of opposing tempo decks). I also dropped Liliana entirely (since she's too slow right now) and am running 3/2 Decay/Disfigure for my removal right now. My current sideboard:

1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will (only 3 in MD)
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Marsh Casualties (over Golgari Charm since I'm running Bob + TNN)
1 Dread of Night
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

DoN is arguably the most narrow card there, but it's what I consider to be a necessary evil due to the prevalence of White creature decks in my metagame and also at large. It's really up to people to decide if DnT is prevalent enough to justify running it, but DoN is just *soooo* good at beating those strategies. It's the perfect sideboard card because it's relevant no matter when you get to cast it, and can really help out against a bad board state. (Some SB cards need to be proactively deployed or only serve as temporary measures).

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Picking your battles is indeed the conundrum. You only have 15 slots to work with, and those will also be based largely on what your main 60 looks like.

Lately I've dropped Hymn and am playing a 3/3 split of Spell Pierce and Stifle + 3 Dark Confidant + 1 TNN due to changes in my local metagame (plenty of Control and Combo decks, but also a fair amount of opposing tempo decks). I also dropped Liliana entirely (since she's too slow right now) and am running 3/2 Decay/Disfigure for my removal right now. My current sideboard:

1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will (only 3 in MD)
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Marsh Casualties (over Golgari Charm since I'm running Bob + TNN)
1 Dread of Night
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

DoN is arguably the most narrow card there, but it's what I consider to be a necessary evil due to the prevalence of White creature decks in my metagame and also at large. It's really up to people to decide if DnT is prevalent enough to justify running it, but DoN is just *soooo* good at beating those strategies. It's the perfect sideboard card because it's relevant no matter when you get to cast it, and can really help out against a bad board state. (Some SB cards need to be proactively deployed or only serve as temporary measures).

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I've been seeing a lot of top finishes with your type of list, essentially, what Jim Davis' list was. Are you liking that list over the classic 2-Lily 14-creature Hymn build? If so, why?

Have you played your list against a Hymn build? Curious what tends to be favored.

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Originally Posted by Fallacy

I've been seeing a lot of top finishes with your type of list, essentially, what Jim Davis' list was. Are you liking that list over the classic 2-Lily 14-creature Hymn build? If so, why?

Have you played your list against a Hymn build? Curious what tends to be favored.

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Yes, essentially it's a list that more closely resembles RUG, except with the power and flexibility of DRS + Decay.

18 lands
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 TNN
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 FoW
3 S. Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Decay
2 Disfigure

The 'classic' build with Hymn is good too. Either approach can win both and play very similarly. It's just a matter of degrees in certain matchups. I have found Liliana to be kinda bad lately, and I really like how Dark Confidant has been performing lately. Both Hymn and Stifle can get you 'free' wins, and it's pretty much a toss up as to which card is better -- it's all so situational.

As for the 'mirror' -- completely draw dependent. No real way to say that one is significantly favored over the other, though arguably Dark Confidant is a beast especially since BUG lacks Burn.

This where I'm at. It's been treating me well on paper and online recently. It might be too aggressive, but it might be just right as well


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
1 Reanimate

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

Sideboard
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library

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Originally Posted by btm10

This where I'm at. It's been treating me well on paper and online recently. It might be too aggressive, but it might be just right as well

1 Reanimate

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Is that you, John Wiley? :wink:

Decks to Beat - playing in the Big Boy's league!

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Originally Posted by I_Hate_Counterspells

Decks to Beat - playing in the Big Boy's league!

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I rather flow under the radar.

We know this deck can pretty much beat any deck out there except autolosses to maybe like elves or DNT,

It beats having a meta full of bloodmoons, magus of the moon, wastelands.

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Originally Posted by Unassigned

Is that you, John Wiley? :wink:

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Brendan McGrail, cribbing John Wiley. I've only lived the dream of stealing a Griselbrand once though.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Brendan McGrail, cribbing John Wiley. I've only lived the dream of stealing a Griselbrand once though.

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List looks good to me, but why the second Trop over the fourth Sea? Black seems critical in this list, considering Hymn, Lili, even the Confidants too.

Dear BUG Delver veterans!

I have recently purchased the needed staples to actively play paper legacy (coming from modern I had all the BG Stuff and mainly needed the lands + FoW) and am now wondering how I should approach the deck-building process. Not having any experience besides watching SCG coverage regularly I do not know the reasoning why some cards should / shouldn't be included in this deck. I have played a ton of modern delver therefore the archetype is not completely foreign territory.

I would really appreciate it if you could take some time to answer me a couple of questions:

a.) Why isn't nimble mongoose part of this strategy? The deck is playing wastelands and sometimes even stifle therefore it has the same tools as RUG to play a "land destruction" game. In addition I read that older lists even played sinkhole in favour of hymn. In this kind of environment mongoose seems to be a solid choice.

b.) What is your reasoning behind the split between counterspells and discard? What quantity of permission should be played overall in an open field?

c.) I read that some lists played tomb stalker as goyf 5-6, do you think that tasigur (only costing B + card drawing) is a valid choice for this deck?


Thank you in advance,
Philip

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Originally Posted by ThE_jOkEr

a.) Why isn't nimble mongoose part of this strategy? The deck is playing wastelands and sometimes even stifle therefore it has the same tools as RUG to play a "land destruction" game. In addition I read that older lists even played sinkhole in favour of hymn. In this kind of environment mongoose seems to be a solid choice.

b.) What is your reasoning behind the split between counterspells and discard? What quantity of permission should be played overall in an open field?

c.) I read that some lists played tomb stalker as goyf 5-6, do you think that tasigur (only costing B + card drawing) is a valid choice for this deck?

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1) Nimble Mongoose is in no way connected to land destruction. Nimble Mongoose simply happens to be the best beater that RUG has available.

2) "Eh". Usually it all just kind of fits together naturally. You got your Deathrites, Delvers, Goyfs, Brainstorms, Ponders, Dazes, Abrupt Decays, 3-4 Force of Wills, and 1-2 Lilianas. After that you kinda just dick around until you find a configuration that's satisfying.

3) Sure, he's ok.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

1) Nimble Mongoose is in no way connected to land destruction. Nimble Mongoose simply happens to be the best beater that RUG has available.

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It is true that mongoose isn't tied to land destruction but my main point is that mongoose is a solid creature and seems to be good against miracles for instance. But that is besides the point I am raising - I just wanted to know why it doesn't see any play in this shell.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

2) "Eh". Usually it all just kind of fits together naturally. You got your Deathrites, Delvers, Goyfs, Brainstorms, Ponders, Dazes, Abrupt Decays, 3-4 Force of Wills, and 1-2 Lilianas. After that you kinda just dick around until you find a configuration that's satisfying.

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I do like the thoughtseizes and hymns in addition to the "free" counterspells but that could be just my personal preference.

Not knowing the full developing history of this deck I was wondering if anyone has tried shardless agent (leaving out dazes and more conditional blue cards like stifle) in this shell? I know there is shardless BUG but I do like the more proactive approach with delver of secrets of Team America.

Philip

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Originally Posted by ThE_jOkEr

It is true that mongoose isn't tied to land destruction but my main point is that mongoose is a solid creature and seems to be good against miracles for instance. But that is besides the point I am raising - I just wanted to know why it doesn't see any play in this shell

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IIRC, it was tried years ago, to varying degrees of success. Frankly though, the printing of Deathrite ended that though. Consider that both decks run ~12 creatures. Eight of those will be Delvers and Goyfs, so you are left to pick you last four. Is Mongoose better than Deathrite? I think the quick answer is "often no." Of course there are exceptions, but in general Deathrite just does more, even if he is more vulnerable.

So, can you run Mongoose? Of course, but I just doesn't seem all that great in light of the other options you have.

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Originally Posted by ThE_jOkEr

I do like the thoughtseizes and hymns in addition to the "free" counterspells but that could be just my personal preference.

Not knowing the full developing history of this deck I was wondering if anyone has tried shardless agent (leaving out dazes and more conditional blue cards like stifle) in this shell? I know there is shardless BUG but I do like the more proactive approach with delver of secrets of Team America.

Philip

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If you run Shardless Agent, Daze is really bad and Spell Pierce isn't great either. At the point at which you make room for the Shardless Agents, reduce your Daze count, you honestly end up with something of a sub-optimal Shardless BUG deck mashed up with a sub-optimal Delver deck. You could try it, but I really think you are better served going all one way, or the other.

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Originally Posted by H

If you run Shardless Agent, Daze is really bad and Spell Pierce isn't great either.

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In fairness, he did say "leaving out dazes and more conditional blue cards like stifle".

First of all I want to thank you for your feedback - getting into a (at least for me :smile: ) new format is always an interesting challenge because you don't know how MUs are supposed to play out and which cards are key, therefore your replies are much appreciated. I do like how shardless interacts with hymn and due to that wanted to know if it ever was "a thing" in this deck (playing BUG colours as well and all).

For the time being I want to raise another question: I don't have a firm grasp of the value of counterspells in contrast to discard spells in legacy to be honest - could you give me some insight on the pros/cons?

Personally I do like discard more because besides disruption it offers you information which is a factor for me being new to the format. It is easier to take out the essential tutor with discard against storm than knowing which spell to counter with spell pierce if it wouldn't stop the first ritual. I trust myself to evaluate complex board states correctly most of the time if I don't have an information problem but I don't have the extensive knowledge (at least for now) to make ideal plays "in the dark". Even with reading primers/articles, playing the deck and watching coverage it will take me some time to acquire the knowledge I deem necessary to truly play competitively with this deck.

Moreover do you have any suggestions how a mainly black based disruption package could look like (3-4 FoW obv. still included)?

Thank you in advance,
Philip

It helps if you don't try to gauge the usage/usefulness of counterspells as a lump. Instead of "counterspells", try considering them as Force of Will and Daze and Spell Pierce. And the same goes for your discard options.