[OLD] UGw Threshold

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Originally Posted by Eldamion

@Adan:

Here in Berlin we have a different metagame then you in western germany.
What would you change when a meta have more blue fish/fairie decks and landstill instead of Loam.

Is UGr better in that kind meta as Ugw, if so, with or without swans und cb?

I tested Venilion Clique a lot in the last time, and I think it is amazing, specilly when you run counterbalance and be short on 3cc. 3/1 flash flying in blue can't be bad.

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Well, I have not touched the deck for ages because school has started again and I'm quite busy and so on... RL and so on... though I am still convinced that RL doesn't exist, there is just AFK.

Whatever, I never had problems with Faerie decks or Blue Fish decks. You can actually out.control them both via Counterbalance. There are just a few cards to keep off the table. I am only a bit afraid of Merfolk. And I have to admit UGw Threshold loses to such random trash.

But I think it's also possible to play David Caplan's UGr Threshold in your metagame, Burnspells can win you games against Landstill, as well as well-timed Wastelands and Stifles.

REBs help against your fishy problems...

Against the above stated decks, you could actually play both DerF's and my UGw variant well as the UGr variant of goobafish, but since I am convinced that UGw is the most versatile variant of both. Against Landstill, you have useful tools like Gadock Teeg, Needles and the Counterbalance lock.

I'd also say that it is a bit more consistent as UGr is quite reliant on tempogaming. If a the cards all come from the top in the wrong timing, things get obsoleted withing a few turns quite quickly. Needs a lot of playtesting to figure out how to time the cards well (I also have some trouble with that from time to time).

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Originally Posted by aTn

@Adan and anyone else with relevant match-up experience against (preferably) TE or TA: What are your general strategies pre and post board ?

I've found that Back to Basics is a bit too slow to set up against TE (which can recover from it or just disregard it and still win); I therefore side B2B out. It's obviously good against TA (they don't play basic lands), but is it even that efficient considering their clock is rather fast (i.e. they might set up their plan before you can resolve B2B) ?

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I've never played against TA, but TE seemed favorable the few times I played against it. Difficult, but favorable. They only have 4 answers to STP, which is the key card in this match. My games against them have always gone to the late game, in which CB Thresh has the clear advantage, but TE can still pull wins out of the ass by playing Tombstalker when we don't have Force and connecting enough times until we can find STP. Aside from that, our superior cantrip base and countertop lock them out of everything but Snuff Out and Tombstalker. Mongoose shines here, since they have so few threats.

Anyway, I sideboard like this: +2 Grunt, -2 Predict. As simple as that. Don't pitch extra Counterbalances to Force of Will like ever. You'll need them after it gets gripped, so they can have only a window of 1 turn to try to come back to the game. Also, don't overextend into the B2B plan, unless you can back it up with creature removal and counterspells. B2B will seal the deal, not knock them out of the game, since it's in fact pretty slow.

I'm starting to wonder if Nimble Mongoose is outdated. Yes, it's untargetable which is fantastic, but it's small, nonevasive and not all that threatening.

Compared to threats like Goyf, Tombstalker and Dreadnought it just seems like Mongoose is so greatly outclassed.

I guess one option would be to just cut Mongoose and the white splash for a black splash and Tombstalker (and thus play Team America)

but is there anything less drastic that we could try instead?

And before you ask, yes I already play 2 Mystic Enforcer.

Well, I made the same experiences. In Balanced Threshold (I don't think that there is White Tempo Thresh) Mongoose aren't that good anymore, but they are still vaible. The Mongoose is bigger than almost every utility critter (Dark Confidant, Meddling Mages...) and helps being aggro or having outs to early critters (like Lackey for example). Mongoose is also good against Landstill as current lists tend to cut Wraths and EE's down to 2 to play Vindicates (Landstill is still a bad Matchups though as he still has 8 ways to kill your Mongoose).

I just think that there aren't better alternatives than Mongoose. A few days ago I met a kinda FaerieNQGw on MWS - he cut the Mongoose for Spellstutter Sprites and played Vendellion Clique instead of Enforcer. I think he also had some Sower of Temptations in there, at least postboard. Dunno if this is a good take on NQGw, I stomped him with TempoThresh :cool:

But there arent good replacement to mongoose yet :(

Against TA, i have to say that my moongoose usually win the game because they can't be hit by their removal. Sure, all of their 8 creatures are bigger than Moongoose, but you already have 4 STP and counters to get rid of them. (If you cant, than you are likely to lose the game anyway)

Or we could play a creature intense list (With werebear and Mystic Enforcer). Mystic are the real bomb, but they cost also too much.

I still think moongoose has its place in the deck. Its a decent 1cc creature. It can apply early preassure to a deck that little or no creature (in the mirror, against TA, landstill sometimes, combo). In the mid and late game, it turns into a 3/3. 2 of them kills a tarmogoyf, which is damn good. Plus, opponent can't kill them.

Robert

Thanks for the advice Jaiminho. It's refreshing to get comments based on actual play situations rather than BS theory that takes only into account 1% of the relevant factors in a match.

About Mongoose, I totally disagree about cutting it. Maybe TA and TE win without Mongoose, but they employ a totally different strategy than UGW-Threshold. In my experience, Mongoose shines against Landstill, Mono-U and other decks trying to get ahold of your win conditions via Shackles and Threads of D.. It's also been great to me against Goyf Sligh.

Talking about TA and TE, i think UGW can really use 4 extra Swords to plowshare with the STE from CONFLUX. Although strictly inferior to STP in many situations, the fact that TA/TE runs so little threat and absolutely no Counterbalance, having up to 8 Swords effects should be more than enough for us to ride to the win

The more i think about it, the more i think the "give opponent a basic land" drawback isnt that bad. In legacy at least. I would not recommend playing STE in t2/extended, where basic land actually matters. I mean, if opponent STE my Tarmogoyf... Sure i get a basic land. But i just lost a tarmogoyf. I dont want basic lands!

The only decks in which STE would be damn bad are against aggro deck that needs basic land to put bigger and more threats


Robert

It's Path To Exile, Robert :wink: :tongue:

Yes it might be good against TA, but I think Submerge can do a similar job without the drawback (+1 Land or at least a shuffle effect).

PM

But TA has 0 basic land

Submerge, on the other hand, can go through CB, which is a huge advantage, can cost 0, which is another huge advantage. But it doesn't get rid of the creature permantly

PTE costs only W, so it shouldnt be a problem most of the time. But it can be shut down by CB pretty easily, which is a huge disadvantage

The more i play against CB, the more i realize decks need to have MB answer to it. Its just ridiculous to lose a game just because of CB

Robert

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Originally Posted by Omega

Submerge, on the other hand, can go through CB, which is a huge advantage, can cost 0, which is another huge advantage. But it doesn't get rid of the creature permantly

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You can Cast your Submerge in response to their Fetchlands. Sure it will work only once (unless your extremly lucky).

2009s first Hassloch Legacy Event: A Tale of Limited to Extensive Fail.

Adan, Brehn and myself decided to play my newest NQG/w list at this month's Hassloch event - with mixed results.
While I failed badly going 2-3-1, Adan came in a solid third (5-1) and Brehn ended up winning the entire thing, going 5-0-1.

Here's what I sleeved up:

Code:

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/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (17)
  4 Windswept Heath
  4 Flooded Strand
  2 Tundra
  2 Tropical Island
  3 Island
  1 Plains
  1 Forest

// Doods (12)
  3 Nimble Mongoose
  4 Tarmogoyf
  2 Jotun Grunt
  3 Trygon Predator

// Permission (12)
  1 Counterspell
  4 Counterbalance
  3 Daze
  4 Force of Will

// Cantrips'n'Stuff (13)
  4 Brainstorm
  4 Ponder
  3 Sensei's Divining Top
  2 Predict

// Kill it before it grow (6)
  4 Swords to Plowshares
  2 Oblivion Ring


/// Sideboard (15 cards)
  4 Hydroblast
  3 Pithing Needle
  3 Rhox War Monk
  2 Back to Basics
  1 Jotun Grunt
  2 Engineered Explosives

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Because we're poor Germans, never to have known the Wirtschaftswunder, we couldn't afford more Rhox War Monks (i.e. no one has that shit). Therefore Adan and Brehn played a slightly different Sideboard, featuring 2 Gaddock Teegs instead of 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Rhox War Monk.

Now you're probably thinking: what the hell did these guys smoke?!1on!eeleven - no full playset of Nimble Mongooses or Dazes, Counterspell (/omg welcome back to ze 2004s), Trygon Predators over Pithing Needle, maindeck Jotun Grunts and, to add insult to injury: Rhox War Monk in the sideboard. Three. Count 'em. Three of them. By the way, Rhox What?
Seriously (not the Gears of War one)?!
And if you're reacting that way, rest assured that you're not the only one. In fact, most of Team SPODs very own members (actually, all of them having seen the build?) were only replying "For cereal?!" "Srslywtflulnoobz?!!" (or whatever these translate into German to - which sounds a lot less sharp) for a week or so.

Therefore, I think that I'll have to explain some of the choices:

• Maindeck
  
  • Trygon Predator replacing Pithing Needle
    
    • Mostly a Metagame-Concideration
      
      • No one plays Deed/EE anymore, however, Counterbalance is on an all-time high.
    • Cmc3 to Evade Counterbalance and to reveal with the later is pure awesome
    • Random Utility is always nice
      
      • However, the loss of Pithing Needle's speed hurts
  • 1 Oblivion Ring > 1 Back to Basics
    
    • To make the deck even more flexible
    • Also, Back to Basics has ceased to impress me lately: more and more people get on the "Basics Are Great" train weakening it significantly.
  
  
  • No more Enlightened Tutor
    
    • Not really worth the trouble if you don't have Back to Basics main
  • 17th Land
    
    • To make up for more cmc3 Spells
  • 3 Nimble Mongoose / 2 Jotun Grunt
    
    • As some people already pointed out: it just started to suck some time ago.
    • Not that a 3/3 shroud guy would be any bad, the problem ist just getting the guy to be 3/3 - which just never happens in time
    • Jotun Grunt added to compensate for the loss of Mongoose (also for Counterbalance-Curve-Considerations) and because we expected loads of Aggro Loam
      
      • However, he sucks badly
        
        • Because he's horribly slow
          
          • It takes him 2+ turns to shrink a Tarmogoyf
        • And because, just like Mongoose, he's terrible early
        • Graveyard dependancy is also something not.hot now that people started to maindeck Relic of P.
      • Mongoose too
        
        • Just because its presence on the board never is relevant
        • And for all the aforementioned reasons
  • 3 Daze / 1 Counterspell
    
    • This just wins games - at least in testing and actual tournament play it never lost a game because it was no Daze but won plenty of games where having Daze n°4 would just have cost you the former.
      
      • Mainly because the deck has become even more control-focused and because it takes you ages to actually win (because your non Tarmogoyf beaters are horrible - see above)
      • Also, due to your beaters being bad, you give your opponent near to infinite time to set up making it easy for him to play around Daze
    • In fact, I'm even considering removing Daze completely
• Sideboard
  
  • No Krosan Grips
    
    • Not needed to do massive solutions to Counterbalance already being played (2 Oblivion Ring, 3 Trygon Predator main, 2 Engineered Explosives side)
  • Rhox War Monk
    
    • MVP. Like all the time - I board them in a lot to compensate for taking out Nimble Mongoose.
      
      • Lifelink and 4 toughness make him an ace against random Aggro against which we don't have a good matchup
      • That entire Counterbalance-dodging-business is also excellent
      • Additionally, he races (almost) every creature sans Goyf
      • He is also an excellent thing to stabilize after the initial assault of the random aggro deck you're just facing - normally you drop pretty low on life before you stabilize meaning that your opponent can just hold on to threats and then overwhelm you in one turn: Rhox War Monk makes this way more difficult

<- Zach T. is not the only one loving the list function

This being made clear, here's a quick overview of my Tale of EPIC Fail:
(no details due to the performance not being worthy of an actual report)

Round 1 vs. BW Deadguy Ale
First game I get a quick, aggressive start with double Nimble Mongoose, Swords to Plowshares on his Spectral Lynx and Dark Confidant - everything looks fine until he drops a Relic of Progenitus and proceeds to completely own me from there on with some random crappy flying beaters (Hypnotic Specter + Wasp Lancer)...
-2 Jotun Grunt +2 Rhox War Monk
Second Game I get another aggressive start with t2 Tarmogoyf, t3 Rhox War Monk (rawr) which quickly finish him despite attempts to race with a Wasp Lancer and to block with a Spectral Lynx (which simply gets sent farming). Most notable plays: him playing second turn Dark Ritual into Grinning Demon which gets met by Daze - from there on he proceeds to play around Daze.
Because of this, I decide to board out a Daze for Rhox War Monk n°3
However, his second turn Dark Confidant walks once again right into Daze - some people just never learn? After he Eradicates (wtf?) my Rhox War Monks, I drop a Nimble Mongoose and proceed to beat for one for ages - no one draws anything relevant which is terribly annoying. Even the more because I have a Sensei's Divining Top on the board. I then have to Force of Will a Black Knight (due to having 2 Swords to Plowshares floating on the top of my library and wanting to continue playing "aggro" with that 1/1 Guy of Infinite Junk). After savagely ripping a Tarmogoyf from the top and preventing his Withered Wretch from hitting play (it would have annihilated the Goyf due to him having infinite mana on the board), I manage to take an extremely frustrating game home.

1-0-0 (2:1)

Round 2 vs. UWb Cunning Landstill
If last game was frustrating, this game was even worse... after an unexciting earlygame (trading Counters and removal for guys and Counterbalances, slowly getting in some damage) he manages to stabilize via Humility and Elspeth which I can handle via Oblivion Ring. From there onwards, the game looks extremely good for me: I have a hand full of good stuff and he's stuck on two cards in hand, a Sensei's Divining Top and a useless Crucible of Worlds. He's at very low life: every threat I have puts him into an all-in situation - he has to handle it or die directly. I put him into such a situation 10-12 times. He always has the removal (despite me being able to get rid of his SdT after some time)... Time is called.

1-0-1 (2:1)

Round 3 vs. UWB Fish
Really boring (and once again terribly frustrating games): they basically boil down to me removing his Dark Confidants, him removing my Tarmogoyfs, him playing a Counterbalance, me handling that Counterbalance, rinse, repeat, repeat? Uh, wait, I can't handle the third Counterbalance? Damn, I loose. Oh, also, Counterbalance-less Threshold is a terrible deck: don't play it, please (i.e. in the same timespan I don't draw any Balances).
-2 Nimble Mongoose -1 Predict -2 Jotun Grunt (screw graveyard dependence, seriously) +3 Rhox War Monk +2 Engineered Explosives
Game2: see Game1.

1-1-1 (2:3)

Round 4 vs. NQG/w
Game 1 I have the Counterbalance, he doesn't (a Trygon Predator was involved in this), I win.
-3 Daze -1 Predict +2 Rhox War Monk +2 Engineered Explosives
Postboard, a Rhox War Monk stalls two Threshed Nimble Mongooses, and, after cantriping into more removal than he has Tarmogoyfs, gets there (with the help of a Tarmogoyf of my own).

2-1-1 (4:3)

Round 5 vs. Survival Elves
Great, a good matchup /sarcasm
He gets a decent start, however, I am able to fend it off via multiple Swords to Plowshares and an Oblivion Ring. I pressurize him via Nimble Mongooses and get him down to 11 life. We're both very low on cards in hand - he then proceeds to draw more Sylvan Messengers and Wren's Run Vanquisher (2+2) than I can draw Forces and other removal and I loose.
-3 Daze -2 Jotun Grunt -2 Predict -1 Trygon Predator +3 Rhox War Monk +3 Pithing Needle +2 Engineered Explosives
I get a decent start with Tarmogoyf + Counterbalance, however his is better with Priest + Survival. After playing Survival he's tapped out meaning that I have to use Engineered Explosives to wipe the board - that hurt. However, I am able to get back into the game thanks to Tarmogoyf - a race sets in. As he drops to 14, I drop to 11 and cantrip into a Rhox War Monk - sweet! I don't have to mention that I simply win the race from there on.
Third game I have an excellent start with 2 Swords, 2 Force of Will, a Counterbalance and two Tarmogoyfs, I have him on 5 life and 2 cards in hand (my hand being empty) when he proceeds to play Sylvan Messenger, Sylvan Messenger, Sylvan Messenger (revealing a total of 9 elves) - drop a board of crappy elves, drop double Elvish Champion... thanks. That'll just do fine, sir.

2-2-1 (5:5)

Round 6 vs. Canadian Threshold
Did I already mention that a good manabase + Tarmogoyf is an absolute foil to Counterbalance-less Threshold?
-1 Counterspell -3 Daze -2 Predict +3 Rhox War Monk +1 Jotun Grunt +2 Engineered Explosives
I mulligan once and keep Flooded Strand + a shitton of cantrips. I play around Stifle and cantrip into stuff, however he has an early Tarmogoyf + Trygon Predator against my Counterbalance + 2x Force of Will + Spell Snare against my Removal and Tarmogoyfs (in that order).
Third game I have an optimal start inclugin a Counterbalance and 3 lands. He then lands a Tarmogoyf - which I respond to with my own. He Submerges it, drops a Trygon Predator which I force. He attacks. I play Tarmogoyf, he Submerges it, plays Trygon Predator, Forces my Tarmogoyf, owns my Counterbalance, Spell Snares my next Tarmogoyf. That's just about enough for today...

2-3-1 (6:7)

Loosing a bad matchup due to an opponent getting the win out of nowhere (jeesh, we have such a fitting expression for this in German, however it just does not translate - it's a shame...), a so-so matchup due to 'only' being able to handle 4 Counterbalances in 2 games, and a good matchup due to apparently playing removal and counter-less Threshold against an opponent spoiled with the later and Submerges is not cool. Also, I had a high tendency to generally play Counterbalance-less Threshold (which is incredibly bad, who would have thought?) and to cantrip/top into nothing but Tops/Brainstorms/Lands.
Not that I want to QQ, but I want to QQ... taking it like a man is easy after all. Not.
However, except for Nimble Mongoose and Jotun Grunt, the deck was extremely solid - especially Rhox War Monk was impressive all day long... I am sure that Adan and Brehn will share their Tales of Not So Much Fail soonish, backing up these conclusions.

Next developments will include searching for alternatives for aforementioned slots (current candidates: Quirion Dryad, Rhox War Monk, Vedalken Shackles, Sea Drake, in that order), a change set in stone is swapping the numbers of Trygon Predators and Oblivion Rings: more flexibility and less clunkiness are always welcome.


As always, feel free to come back to me with questions on the build/choices - due to important exams coming up I don't have as much time to go into as much detail as I'd like to,
Yours truly
C.

I do not understand the obsession with Oblivion Ring. It isn't any less "clunky" than Trygon Predator, and it makes your deck almost as vulnerable to Krosan Grip as Dreadstill is.

I'm also confused as to how you're having so much difficulty reaching threshold. That simply shouldn't be an issue, unless you've cut too many draw spells. I do agree that Mongoose has gotten worse, but I think that's because 3/3's just don't hit as hard as they used to, more than anything else. Of course, trying to support Jotun Grunt probably doesn't help matters...

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

I'm also confused as to how you're having so much difficulty reaching threshold. That simply shouldn't be an issue, unless you've cut too many draw spells. I do agree that Mongoose has gotten worse, but I think that's because 3/3's just don't hit as hard as they used to, more than anything else. Of course, trying to support Jotun Grunt probably doesn't help matters...

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It's not the lack of draw spells, it has more to do with deck design and the unusually high permanent count:

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Oblivion Ring
29 Land (8 fetch) / Duders (2 grunt)
= 38 Permanents

Non-perm draw, removal, counters:
= 22 cards that hit the yard

And a lot of those 22 cards are conditional on game state (counters when there's nothing to counter, StP when there's nothing to target, etc.)

Then too, yeah, Grunt and Goose aren't a combo when played the same deck.

I've wanted to play War Monk since I saw him, but he seemed too low on the power curve. That said, against aggro, gobs, burn, Goyf Sligh, I can him being a champ. The size of his butt vs. Goblins is awesome and the life gain + clock is much needed vs. Burn and sligh.

My own list hasn't changed in a wile:

"GP Threshold"

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

I'm still not sure which should be the 3-of in this crowd: CB #4, Bob #4, Thoughtseize #4, Daze #4.

Hi

I have also found mongoose not performing very well in my white threshold (which is similar to the german lists but with snares instead of needles and no toolbox, 17 lands), specially with all those relics running around. Its great for canadian, no doubt, but white is much slower and its not as efficient. Same for Daze, which is a necessary evil in this fast format, but unfortunately it's not backed up by mana denial to make it more effective.


I had in mind War-Monk but actually never tested it, (couldn't afford t2 cards:rolleyes: ). So do you think a more UWg controlish-like approach would be viable?, incorporating things such as Noble Heriarch (great at goyf stale mates, and helps stablish balance lock quicker), Monks and big beaters to profit acceleration(apart from enforcer, exalted angel perhaps?)


....

I know its turning the deck concept upside down a bit, but truly mongoose is not working for me here and monk seems to improve actually many aggro match-ups to deserve maindeck spots.

p.D There is an article where this is actually suggested http://http://www.starcitygames.com/...Landstill.html
Not sure about jittes, but clique seems ok.

onto real business...

the almost nihilism of Dredge nowadays.
Can we finally remove those tormod's crypt from our SB?

Jotun grunt is probably better in UGW when fighting against aggro loam, or any other gravebased deck

Mongoose : Remove or not remove? That is the question. Everytime we try to remove it, we end putting it back... 1cc is not to be ignored. Although i have to agree to having more 3cc cards will improve this game matchups against CB

Oblivion ring : I am not sure with that card. In certain matchup, he is wonderful (acts as STP #5-6) and can get rid of problematic enchantment (such as Humility). But i do agree that stifle + krosan grip seems to be a pain.

Hmm, 3/4 lifelink. What do you think of Loxodon Hierarch? Not that good eh :O I think im going to try those monks when i get some time...

In my meta, Pithing needle has prove to be absolutely necessary. We have a lot of UGWB landstill, and even against deck like Dreadstill, to be able to stop their manland is a bonus. Its almost never dead

Imo, UGW can play up to 2 Counterspell maindeck. The deck is indeed slower than other version, thus can play more control

I was watching some of the videos from Worlds and on YouTube about Legacy. I think a much better was to look at Mongoose is like this: In the current format, most aggro control decks (the term loosely applies to a lot of decks) only runs around 8-12 Threats max. Most decks run main deck spot removal: StP, Smother, Snuff Out, Burn ect. Few decks run EE and Deed. The videos contended that what most games come down to is that post Counterwars and trading removal, its usually the player left with just one creature left. I mean there are times when I've had Goyf and Nimble on the board sitting across from another Goyf and not being able to attack. But its still a shroud creature one drop that beats for 1/1 or 3/3. Dropping Mongoose means that spot removal is useless and they have to use something like EE or Deed to answer it outside of dropping a creature. A deck like TE which can't dig as fast as Threshold, has only spot removal and only 8 creatures; a 3/3 shroud beater can be problematic to answer outside of dropping a creature. Plus with fetching and snuff out and thoughtseize, that life loss can stack up pretty fast. Its a solid creature for what it is. There isn't a better alternative and its great against aggro decks.

Last tournament, I was playing Red Trash and won 2-0 against Team Europe. Mongoose did his job very good. Even better than Tarmogoyf. I think what Fossil just mentionned has to be considered: Most decks doesn't have answer to this creature and if your deck succeed to counter/remove the opponent threat, it's really giving you an advantage of hitting 1/3 each turn. Being able to give it Thresh0ld is also a key.

By reading dif's report, it looks like a list as he get isn't the right list to run Mongoose because of: 1- anti-synergy with jotun 2- not enough tempo cards in the grave as red trash can do (stifle, wasteland, fire/ice, spell snare, daze...). If we wanna see the real power of Mongoose, I think we clearly see it in a tempo Thresh0ld deck.

By beeing the control player, mongoose get worse. UGW Thresh0ld is clearly moving to a more control gameplan since Clemen's list is everywhere (B2B+Enlightened Tutor tool box).

PM

I think one reason mongoose isn't seeming as good for me lately, and others apparently, is that threshold decks are playing more and more spells that don't go the the graveyard. Such as Oblivion Ring, Back to Basics, Pithing Needle, and of course already running Counterbalance and Top. Which means you get threshold slower, and a 1/1 isn't very scary, shroud or not. Also, I've noticed more and more people running Relic of Progenitus or Jotun Grunt, which really makes getting threshold difficult.

The most promising replacements I've seen so far are Quirion Dyrad, Rhox War Monk, and also Trygon Predator and Jotun Grunt can get in there for some damage while providing utility. I was actually just looking at a couple of deck lists which use those cards and looked interesting.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22724
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22723

Maybe it's time to try out Stifle + Dreadnought. Nah, I don't think so, not here, but it is one interesting option to get a real threat into the deck.

Or perhaps the deck should take a page from Team America and splash black for Tombstalker.

@Oblivion Ring: Its simply the replacement for Repeal. De facto permanent solution and cmc 3 for Balance far outweights cantripping and being blue. Krosan Grip that hits Ring won't hit Balance or Top and if the Ring isn't handled shortly after it has been cast you usually had enough time to achieve boardcontrol/find another solution.
It also hits Chalice@1 where Repeal fails.

@Rhox War Monk: This guy is so nuts against a good amount of decks that I play him main. Depends on the meta though. With a lot of Goyfsligh running around he really shines.

@Daze/CS: Currently trying something like this but the problem is that fast decks can put too much pressure on you and Daze is also very good to get second turn Balance through counters. I'm not sure about the 3/1 split but as Counterspells are amazing in the late game I will try that one.


I would play 1 Hoofprints in that list. Its an insane creature advantage machine in the control build.