Did you actually test this? You have 3 CC4 Spells, 4 CC 5 spells. Something you don't really want with Ad Nauseam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Printable View
Did you actually test this? You have 3 CC4 Spells, 4 CC 5 spells. Something you don't really want with Ad Nauseam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Since I don't know anybody who is naming B.Wish with MM (they rather go for AN) I would say he is packing it to the heavy reliance on Ad Nauseam itself.
Of course he plays more copies of it to improve the chance of having some in the opening seven which make sense then BUT
-running 4 copies of AN is bad when you get one AN resolved since your chance of flipping at least 2 is pretty high ( I died 50% of the time when I ran 4 AN in my list)
-having more than one in the opening hand is a waste of resources even if you get lucky and are able to imprint it into mox it still slows you down by 1 handcard
I played a rather uncommon list on sunday at a legacy tourney which 24 people attended and came in 2nd.
This was my list:
Maindeck
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
4 Orim's Chant
3 Chrome Mox
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
4 Lotus Petal
Side
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
The MD and Side are far from being optimal but here's what I noticed playing it.
-Duress is damn strong. Always when I had 1 in my opening hand - I won that game.
-The upkeep LED trick let's you keep hands that were normally (and after m10) not keepable and I think it takes a lot of flexibilty and options away when it isn't playable anymore.
-Having Burning Wish is plain awesome and I wouldn't ever want to play without it. It gives you so much flexibilty searching for whatever the situation needs. Also gives you the alternative killing plan and let's you mindgame the opponent and still being able to actually win.
- I haven't missed Ill-Gotten Gains MD at all.
- Manabase was alright all day, I never got screwed / couldn't act like I wanted to.
I know my Side is pretty random, but I lacked some cards and couldn't make it quite optimal. I guess Bryants actual Side looks pretty good.
Well since I didn't make notes heres just the MU's and results of the tourney :
Countersliver 2-0
Merfolk 1-2 (played by the german national champion who just lucksacked me g3 drawing 3 Cursecatcher, 3 Daze, 1 FoW and topdecking into Wastes and Lords! Oh, well- since he won the tourney I had the best opp. score.)
WW (DnT?!) 2-0
( I haven't seen much of his deck since I won the on turn 2 both games. After the second game he shows me that he had the white instant which makes him untargetable 'til end of turn [I always forget the card names] and if I would've gone for the Tendrils kill in game 2, I would've actually lost. Luckily I picked the EtW Kill that game =p )
Suicide Black 2-0 (both games T1.5 win)
Dreadstill UBG 2-1 ! (he got bad mulligans g3 and I could go off protected T1.5 the games I won - gave him one of my 4 packs I got for prize afterwards cuz he was so unlucky and I lucksacked my balls of the walls)
so I just lost 3 games the whole tourney and was quite happy and impressed that the deck runned so well.
(Oh and I had a good Karma opening my winning booster since I draw a foil Maelstrom Pulse - people on the streets wanted to call the cops since I behaved like a retarded and cheered all the way home)
I do not expect to face M.Mage in first game , thats simple
also note I do not play Tendrils and IGG whjich is quite similar to 2 A.N. except +1 cost
4 Ad Nauseam, 2 Tendrils, 1 IGG= Epic win !
His list does not have a win condition in the maindeck. He's 100% reliant on resolving a Burning Wish to grab a Tendrils. All his opponent would have to do is keep him off Burning Wish via Mage, Spell Snare, CounterTop, etc. and smash face ftw.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaD
Yeah, thats obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
But the opponent doesn't know what list he is running - if he is running tendrils MD or not.
If you're betting on the opponents burning wish as the only out to get tendrils and he actually is playing it md he goes for AN and crushes your face.
So if im facing ANT, I would say 90% of all the time Ad Nauseam.
If my deck plays Daze or Spell Snare, I'd likely hit Dark Ritual nearly 100% of the time against TES right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaD
How do you hit Dark Ritual with spell snare?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Well anyways.
I just wanted to make clear, that if you play Meddling Mage naming Ad Nauseam against combo is quite the most viable plan.
Naming Ritual can't keep the Stormplayer from still comboing off with, for instance rite of flame or cabal ritual.
Naming Burning Wish can't keep the stormplayer from still comboing off with Ad Nauseam.
Naming Ad Nauseam duresses the comboplayer to either
1. Go for the Iggy Route (which requires more mana and gives the non-combo man more time)
2. Go for a solution via Mystical or Burning Wish (which requires more mana and gives the non-combo man more time)
3. laugh at you when his name is emidln since he is running DDFT and goes off with Doomsday. (which requires more time but can be pulled off through opponents hate better)
When you are having Daze and Spell Snare in one Deck, you will also have Force and CBTop or Bolt/moar Counter, which is pretty good against stormcombo anyways.
You name Dark Ritual with Meddling Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaD
Wrong.Quote:
I just wanted to make clear, that if you play Meddling Mage naming Ad Nauseam against combo is quite the most viable plan.
TES rarely plays Cabal Ritual. It's difficult to cast Ad Nauseam without Dark Ritual if you are trying to avoid Spell Snare (if you want to use LED to pay for your Ad Nauseam) and Daze (which when the TES player tries to use Rite of Flames and then lands/moxen/petals) to pay for Ad Nauseam can cause a shortage of black mana if they want the Rite of Flame to resolve. Further, this allows your Meddling Mage (and potentially other creatures) to continually make Ad Nauseam worse while you sculpt more counters.Quote:
Naming Ritual can't keep the Stormplayer from still comboing off with, for instance rite of flame or cabal ritual.
If I was playing against something with lots of fetchlands (storm combo that isn't TES), I'd probably name Orim's Chant if they have shown me white in previous games as the black mana denial plan isn't nearly as effective against decks packing Cabal Ritual.
Liar! Liar! Pants on fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
In my post above, I told that this is not a good plan.
Assumed that you have all the cards in hand against TES.Quote:
TES rarely plays [...] Cabal Ritual.
If you don't and just have MM you will almost name ANT to buy time to find Counter or set up your CBTop.
If you have MM and Counter then you should name their protection outlet, that makes of course sense.
Since AN-Combodecks always consist of Tutors, Rampcards and Win-engines
I would mostly go for shutting off their Win-Engines first and if possible disrupt their Rituals.
C'mon emidln, no need to get so harsh.
You're playing a deck with at least 8 (probably more) blue counters and meddling mage and you managed to get to turn 2 without seeing any of them? I wish my opponents did that.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaD
Yeah, I'm a very unlucky landstill player :(Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
But still, when you play the MM on turn 2 naming Chant, you must have Counter that doesn't cost anything (namingly FoW or Daze).
And since Landstill doesn't pack Daze....
You have to have Force backup to be ready if the Comboplayer tries to get off and just pray that he doesn't has the Duress.
So you see, even if I pack a lot of counter, I need open mana, which I don't have on Turn2 when I play the MM. And Turn 3 MM on Chant may be to late.
Besides that: What deck else is playing MM? I just know of Landstill as a real, viable Deck. (Countertop does not need MM to have a good combo match-up - Hannifish got grounded by Goyf)
The CounterTop Bant decks seem to play Meddling Mage in their sideboards because they really don't have that great of a combo matchup. Mage + CB is a force to be reckoned with in game 2 though.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaD
Well, I don't know if that Bant Deck packs any Dazes md , if not you can say quite the same like i did for the landstill MM situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
If yes then you have potential ~15% to have one of your 8 non-mana counter to justify the Turn 2 MM on Chant.
I hope you can at least agree that my approach isn't as dumb, as you wanted it to be.
@BreatheWeapon mainly :
Regarding to this list :
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 U.Sea
2 V.Island
Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [US] Duress
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
Sideboard
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 C.Therapy
3 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [PS] Simplify
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [GP] Shattering Spree
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [10E] Deathmark
1 Channel of the suns
1 Meltdown
-Really need somekind of good burning target to get mana better than channel
-The number of IGG + Tendrils = 2 A.Nauseam + 2 mana , if you notice , there is no great diffrence between other A.N decks regarding to average mana cost.
-8 Defense spells should be the number .
- 12 lands should be the correct number not 11 or 10
-We do not need Tendrils or IGG in main becuase of burning , I mean We have to cast A.N to win simply , and next , for sure we'll use Tendrils to win , easily.
- We do not want to draw IGG or Tendrils , no more thatn A.N.
-Before I played 1 A.N becuase of the number of strong tutors , but now we do not have M.Tutor as strong tutor so getting up the number of A.N and getting down the number of high costs spells is ritgh call
I see some stormdecks play Rain of filth lately, is this not an option for TES?
I am testing it now and it is already golden when you have 2 lands, more is yust gravy.
And it doesn't cost you as much life as C.Ritual and isn't as cluncy.
Is it worth it though? It's unimpressive unless you have three lands. Two lands is an Rite of Flame. I don't know if it's worth playing a situational card maindeck. It does nothing turn 1 which I can see being a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volrath
I've never thought about testing it, I could be talking out of my ass here. I'll get one and try it.
For what it's worth, I don't play it in FT unless I have at least 16 lands. It's an unthresh'd Cabal Ritual at 2 lands, Dark Ritual at 3 lands, threshed Cabal Rit at 4 lands, and really really good at 5+ lands. TES doesn't normally get to the Dark Ritual level though.
11 Land is optimal, Dual Lands are terrible and they'll lose you more games than Forbidden Orchard from color screw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
7 Disruption spells is fine, you can play more or less depending on your play style and risk tolerance.
We don't need IGG MD, but we do need Tendrils MD. You can't let Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony = Auto Win, and SBing Tendrils means you're adding +1R onto the Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseam -> Tendrils of Agony chain by subbing Tendrils of Agony with Burning Wish and you're adding +1R onto the Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns chains as well , which is where it's really not acceptable (you also need the redundancy vs Diminishing Returns removing your Infernal Tutor targets).
If you want a SB acceleration target, the only SB acceleration target worth playing is 1 Rite of Flame.
You can run 2, maybe 3, Ad Nauseams if you feel your deck is "threat light."
I feel that 4 cities, 4 gemstone mine, 1 undiscovered paradise, 1 volcanic island and 1 underground sea is the optimal land configuration. I have always been able to make the mana I need. When I ran 4 cities, 4 gemstone, and 2 undiscovered paradise I really only had problems if I drew both undiscovered paradise. I do feel that 11 is the perfect number as you can still recover from wasteland. The problems start when you lose multiple lands but that really shouldn't happen if you hold some back.