Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
How's a 3/3/4 Spell Snare/CS/FoW split sound? I've had many instances where I wished Spell Snare was a CS and vice versa. I see Spell Snare as being very metagame dependent. Any reasons why 3/3 is subpar?
On the 3 or 4 Factory discussion, I think Elf_A plays 4x Factory because he rocks 0 Decree. If he's seeing Gobs, this seems strong, and most of his metagame eats it to T2 Standstill, so I can see why he wants a playset there as well.
Other than that it seems like a lot of the card choices Mossivo listed are more and more being recognized as the standard for Landstill. Assuming 23 lands, that leaves 7 customizable slots for C Wish, Vindicate, Crucible, E Dragon, Elspeth, V Clique, Relic, Humility, E Tutor, PtE and other such cards. I would think 2 of those slots are auto-Elspeth in most lists by now. The rest is probably personal/metagame preference.
I like 2 Elspeth, 2/3 Vindicate, 1 Crucible, 1/2 Humility, 0/1 E Tutor, 0/1 Path to Exile, with possibly a Humility in 1 Wrath slot.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Actually, I cut a jace yesterday for the 3rd CS and got back to 60 cards, due to the fact no one here (i'm talking about nearly 50 people) seems to have 2 f****** diabolic edict for sunday. I went to a more "classic" conception, because of the fact my speedstill plans (2-3 vindi, 2 edict, 4 swords) are ruined by the missing edicts. Anyway, here's what I'm testing and plan to bring sunday (if I don't find 2 edicts, :laugh: ):
Manabase:
4 tundra
4 mishra's factory
1 academy ruins
1 wasteland
1 dust bowl
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 Island
2 plains
I cut the basic swamp just because I've got back to 2 vindicate, and SB hate which abuses of black is easily fetchable (even early, e.g. in the combo MU, where we don't absolutely care of LD). Eventually, the 4th tundra can be the 3rd plain, and the 1x waste another u.sea. Thoughts are welcome in this case. A 3rd black mana font, however, should be in. I also got back to the 4th mishra, because I got to cut some waste (3 waste with only 2 vindicate is no good...) and need to win under standstill wars. I'm not a fan of he 4th mishra or the 1/1 waste/bowl split. But 3 waste may reveal useless without vindicate to make them much more effective.
Let's go on.
Draw engine:
4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 top
1 jace
1 enlightened tutor
Permission:
4 Force of will
4 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
Removal:
2 vindicate
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
1 nevinyrral's disk
1 wrath of god
walkers (jace already mentioned)
3 elspeth, knight-errant
stuff
1 crucible of worlds
1 humility
I must admit, the general concept of this list does not satisfy me. Except for being a bad period for me, with mulligans for 1- lands being the norm (23 lands in 60 cards, what the heck...). 3 CS is the more difficult choice, since i tend to fetch for basic early to stabilize earlier, and so UU is not a smart cost for me to pay. However, that slot was a jace, and I already pointed out that 2 jace is good imho only if packed with enough removal to keep the board clear. No edicts = less removal = more counters needed. Simple and clear. I'd surely prefer -1 CS +2 edict and my basic swamp back, as for my 61 card deck ^^ The removal suite is so shortened by 2 cards; vindicate got logically cut to 2: it covers the slot of the 3rd EE + 1 path to exile, and has the versatility they don't have. So less LD, with waste being diminished as well. And yeah, it's not an error: 3 elspeth. I got few chance to test her in such an important number, but sunday's tournament will leave feedbacks. Elspeth:
- do we want to see it in our opening hand? Cross. So no 4x.
- do we want to see her mid late game, as vindicate? Check. Considered 2x.
- do we want to see her a little earlier, by turn 4-5? Check. Then surely 3x.
- More impact vs aggro than the 2nd wrath, the 2nd humility? Check, ihmo. That's the reason why some LS don't play humility and wrath. Good point to desire a 3rd copy of it rather than a 2nd copy of something other.
- dead vs combo like wrath and humility? Cross. Strong point.
3 standstill: thanks mossivo for backing up the argument. Standstill is still our preferred, beloved, unspoilered ancestral recall. But t2 standstill is a foolish move if we don't have the mathematical certainty to win. Better use it when we have a solid position on the board.
I was forgetting the side:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Porgenitus
1 Planar Void
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ajani Goldmange
With 1 sculler/canonist maybe out for cop:red
BTW, if I find 2 edicts, i'll play
3 mishra
3 waste
3 tundra
3 island
2 plains
1 swamo
1 usea
1 scrubland
1 ruins
3 flooded
2 polluted
4 fow
4 snare
2 cs
4 bs
2 top
3 standstill
1 etutor
2 jace
2 elspeth
2 EE
1 disk
3 vindicate
2 edict
1 humility
1 cruci
4 swords, back to 61 cards (and i'll try to stick a wrath somewhere, maybe...)
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misplayer
How's a 3/3/4 Spell Snare/CS/FoW split sound? I've had many instances where I wished Spell Snare was a CS and vice versa. I see Spell Snare as being very metagame dependent. Any reasons why 3/3 is subpar?
I love the 3/3/4 Snare CS FOW split and won't change it for any reason. It's good all the time. Que Joel chiming in about how much cs sucks.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elf_Ascetic
@ Citrus: 2 Decree of Justice is not so good in that metagame I think. I've played a lot with a single decree, but I've cut him for The Abyss, since they both win the game, only in different scenario's. I'm not expecting much Standstills across the table, so I've given Decree the Axe.
For the love of god, at least run them in the sideboard. Your games will end much more quickly if you board DoJs in. Decrees do much more than just cycle for soldier tokens. I've won games against decks like Merfolk, Aggro Loam and Survival just because I hardcasted a DoJ for 2 Angel tokens. Also, boarding in DoJs is a good plan considering you'll just end up taking Game 1 by having your opponent scoop to you anyway.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Decree is really good only in a very late game (at least 8 lands and above). Before that Elspeth is strictly better, and that's why people have been cutting Decree more and more. Decree has its shot in control metas, but legacy just isn't about control now. Most of the time, you would cycle the early Decree in your hand, because you can not afford a dead card sitting in your hand, and if you're, why run it at all?
Granted, if you cycle Decree for 5+ or hard cast it for 2, you probably win. But if you've dropped Elspeth like 4 turns earlier, you should've won already.
Now I'll rant a little about the land count. What's up with you people? You're running control deck with a bunch of heavy costed (4cc) permanents. How is 23lands enough for that?! Not only that but you also attempt to run wasteland along these 23lands? Having played Landstill for a while, anything less than 24 lands (and you count wasteland as 1/2 of a land at most), unless you run E.Dragon gives you mana screw from time to time. Drop additional wasteland or stifle from your opponent into assumption and you're never going to cast that Humility or Elspeth.
Another troublesome thing is that you're actually trying to run less colored mana sources than most of 4c builds do. And they had a hard time understanding how important a colored source is. Just look at the above list, considering it has 5 fetches, there are:
13 ways to access blue
12 ways to access white
6 ways to access black
7 colorless sources
10 non blue sources.
11 non white sources
LOL wut? Almost 43% of your mana base is non blue? And 48% is non white. How are you going to reliably get 2 blue or 2 white mana in a world of stifle and wasteland? And it really matters. Merfolk deck will punish you for your manabase. Goblins will punish you for your manabase. Not speaking of decks like Canadian Threshold and Team America. Now lets have a look at more or less standard 4c manabase:
4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Underground Sea
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
18 ways to access blue
11 ways to access white and black
10 ways to access green
6 colorless lands
Only 22% of manabase is not blue. Somehow that looks a bit more stable to me, yet this is a 4c deck.
To sum it up, don't run less than 24 lands, unless you run E.Dragon, don't run more than 6 non colored sources unless you run more than 24 lands (only add wasteland if you have at least 23 lands), and have at least 6 fetchlands in the deck.
To make things more constructive, here's my approach to the deck:
// Lands (24)
4 [R] Tundra
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
// Planeswalkers
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [TE] Counterspell
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
1 [TE] Humility
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [CNF] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate
A few words about Counterspell. The more permanent or sorcery speed you run, the less useful its early on. In almost all lists, 3 Counterspell is fine.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tinefol
What's up with you people? How is 23lands enough for that?!
+1. Agreed with Tinefol.
And as far as I know, Dragon Stompy wins the BoM3, so spend some time to reexamine your manabases.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
As far as I can see, there is the general effort to run 5+ basics and less fetches: this could mean that stifle, waste, moon, b2b effects are less relevant at the "simple" cost of being a little more cautious when using the manabase. Also, top is a solid addiction that ihmo justifies the cut of the 24th land/dragon: in your list I see only 1 (what for? avoiding late game topdeck mode? cut that and jace and put 2 fof back ihmo, they serve better). Also, the general curve is not so high (no more decree e.g., wrath reduced or erased...), so especially in your approach 23 lands may seem enough (I cannot say the same of my list which atm has 3 else 1 disk, and not rarely I'd want the 24 land), or at least 24 but use the top slot for something more effective (like fof e.g.). Landeed landbase has more ways to access all the colors at the price of being exposed to all genres of LD and mana denial. 3cc landstill, from what i'm seeing in this thread, sacrifices a little fluency to strenghten the manabase. Ofc it may be improved a lot (i'm not satisfied with the one I have atm), but I can't remember the last time i lost to a resolved B2B or blood moon, tx to vindicate and 5+ basics, or had autoloss to wstax for not being able to put a damned basic into play after a resolved armageddon. It's crucial to have the right mana at the right time. It's also pretty good to see your opponent's nonbasic hate turning into dead cards just for the fact I run 2+ basics than I run a year ago.
Thus said, I run 23 lands and still screw and mull hard for not having 1/2 lands in my opening. But that's a personal problem, if I play high tide I usually draw 4-5 cards out of 7 :frown:
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Dang, Citrus and Moss made so many good points their is nothing left for me to point out. I guess its story time: Decree cycles on turn 3 to find your fourth mana in a pickle, Decree says, "SURPRISE! I win," I've won games because I decreed for 1 under a standstill doing roughly 10-12 points of damage, also you do not have to worry about protecting your cycled decree as much as a manland or an elspeth. Like Joel said, cut it so that if I ever play a mirror against you I can drop standstill with very little worry.
Is 7 colorless sources really that much different percentage wise than running 6 colorless sources? I run 3 mishra's, 3 wasteland, and 1 academy ruins. I have not once said to myself where are my mishra's? I am not sure how many games I've tested in the last 7-8 months since I switched to 3 and there isn't a time where I just lost because I couldn't draw a mishra's. Joel pointing out that I ran 3 was like a wake up call. I forgot I ran 3 because I draw them so often they might as well be a 4-of.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tinefol
...
Can you back that with statistics? In other words, what are the changes if you play a 23 mana base like this:
6 colourless sources
4 Tundra
2 Sea
1 Scrub
2/2/1 Basics
5 fetches
What is the change you can't Wrath turn 5 or counterspell turn 2? How much does that change with adding 1 fetchland? or adding a colourless source in a 23 or 24 manabase.
Comparing those things to other decks doesn't say to much, even if they are quite alike. 4-C Landstill is blue based with three small splashes. 3-colour is UW with a tiny splash for black. That is a huge difference. We can get Wrath of God mana of basics, 4-C Landstill needs 2 different duals and hope nothing is wasted before they can sweep the board next turn. This calls for a completely different manabase.
But I would like to see the statistics though :D. I'm not saying you're wrong, I was on the 24 land-count for a long time. But now I'm testing a 23 land version and I haven't been screwed yet. I only play 3 UU spells and 5 WW spells. The WW spells are at least 4 mana.
BB
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I played with 25 mana sources, including Dragon. I must say, Wastelands and Factories always color screw my opening hands. It's down to just 3 Factories, a Dust Bowl and an Academy Ruins now. Since I switched to those cards, I have been more comfortable playing Landstill through my swiss rounds. Running 6-7 colorless mana sources is equivalent to the 61st card argument.
I seldom get mana screwed, but I've been through color screw way too often.
Edit. I'm running 3 Factories because Elspeth is printed, which allows me to diversify my threat base anyway. Running 4 Factories would lead to my said color screw issue.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Considering these changes for local play:
-2 Vendillion
-1 Spell snare
+2 Counterspell
Thoughts?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Considering these changes for local play:
-2 Vendillion
-1 Spell snare
+2 Counterspell
Thoughts?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
Considering these changes for local play:
-2 Vendillion
-1 Spell snare
+2 Counterspell
Thoughts?
You only ever need to run Counterspell when you play FoFs and maybe a 3rd Wish. So if you're going to run those cards, then Counterspell is probably better than Clique. Knowing your build, Clique is a lot better than Counterspell. I think DIF would agree with this as well.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
You only ever need to run Counterspell when you play FoFs and maybe a 3rd Wish. So if you're going to run those cards, then Counterspell is probably better than Clique. Knowing your build, Clique is a lot better than Counterspell. I think DIF would agree with this as well.
Yeah I figured it would come down to someone playing the dif card on me. I was trying to achieve this without his knowlage shhhh... j/k
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I've been thinking alot lately about the different people who send me lists and ask questions ect.
Some Pointers for those of you who send these lists; before you send check read the following.
#1 I would not consider playing Landstill currently without equal or very close to equal numbers for your different suits (This applys to everything but utility and land suits obviously). The reasoning is obvious when pondered but honestly I can tell you the immense testing i've done as well as witnessed by successfull pilots more then proves these points.
#2 I cannot foresee running humility without wish in the same model. The logic that you randomly get humility to win you games doesn't work with my "always need to be able to tutor" personality. Where other pilots find redundancy in running multiple cards my playstyle is that to have a bunch of unique tutoring to enable multiple different angles or approaches to attack from.
#3 I always follow the rule: if you cant beat atleast two of the following in legacy: force/swords/combo (ant)/ or counterbalance.dec; then you probobly shouldn't be playing said build of anything. My personal build plays well against atleast 3 of the 4. This is not only because I play force and swords, but because of the utility that I run I am able to keep up with counterbalance. I do lack in the Ant department but it isn't difficult to just clog your sideboard up with Meddling mages and Ethersworn cannonists or even runed halos. Its up to you, though I prefer not to and thus lack a truly good matchup.
I hope this gives some of you a way into my thinking. I wanted this to be very clear as I am not able to speak with all of you obviously.
Love and Kisses :)
-Moss
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I have been testing the 3/3 spellsnare/counterspell configuration for awhile and I haven't really liked it all that much the last time I tested. Since then, I have switched back to just running 4 counterspells and I have been satisfied with the set.
Cunning wish has pretty much replaced spell snare for me because it's still a versatile card in this format and wish can win you games against countertop aggro-control while I can't really say the same about spell snare. Sure, spell snare is good at countering Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance but that isn't really an effective way to gain card advantage(it's 1 for 1). Especially since Landstill usually excels from card advantage and not 1 for 1 tradeoffs.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
#2 I cannot foresee running humility without wish in the same model. The logic that you randomly get humility to win you games doesn't work with my "always need to be able to tutor" personality. Where other pilots find redundancy in running multiple cards my playstyle is that to have a bunch of unique tutoring to enable multiple different angles or approaches to attack from.
I can imagine running Humility without Cunning Wish to tutor for it. It honestly works very well. Although, there's only one problem with a build not running Cunning Wish; the deck's needs fall apart. Landstill is a very good deck with very interesting needs as your board and game state develops over time. While playing builds without Cunning Wish, I realized that playing Landstill is a mix of playing against your opponent as well as taking care of your position. Cunning Wish is not only a way to attack your opponent from a different or unique angle and/or answer a threat, but it's a way to find cards to help take care of yourself. Different stages in the game demand different things. Sometimes you need answer a threat, sometimes you need to build card advantage. I believed so firmly that when tutoring for cards that help you get ahead of your opponent, I even tested Tithe as a wish target just so I can fix my mana base. Later, I ended up playing Sprouting Vines instead. I ended up running a maindeck CoW instead so I can tutor for it via Wish -> ETutor.
Quote:
#3 I always follow the rule: if you cant beat atleast two of the following in legacy: force/swords/combo (ant)/ or counterbalance.dec; then you probobly shouldn't be playing said build of anything. My personal build plays well against atleast 3 of the 4. This is not only because I play force and swords, but because of the utility that I run I am able to keep up with counterbalance. I do lack in the Ant department but it isn't difficult to just clog your sideboard up with Meddling mages and Ethersworn cannonists or even runed halos. Its up to you, though I prefer not to and thus lack a truly good matchup.
Right now, my sideboard has 3 Spell Snares and 4 Meddling Mages. That seems to be able to handle itself very well against ANT and TES. Especially if you run 3 Wastelands maindeck.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mister Agent
I have been testing the 3/3 spellsnare/counterspell configuration for awhile and I haven't really liked it all that much the last time I tested. Since then, I have switched back to just running 4 counterspells and I have been satisfied with the set.
Cunning wish has pretty much replaced spell snare for me because it's still a versatile card in this format and wish can win you games against countertop aggro-control while I can't really say the same about spell snare. Sure, spell snare is good at countering Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance but that isn't really an effective way to gain card advantage(it's 1 for 1). Especially since Landstill usually excels from card advantage and not 1 for 1 tradeoffs.
I really don't get your point here. Spell Snare is just great against Thresh. It can counter Goyf and Balance as you said and these are the cards that are most dangerous for us. You don't need any more card advantage than your normal draw engine here. Thresh has NO card advantage at all.
Besides, Thresh is one of our best matchups even without Spell Snare, so why do you try to argument on the Spell Snare issue with this matchup?
There are so many decks Spell Snare is just unbelievable against: Goyf Sligh, Merfolk, every deck with CB, all the stuff that plays Hymn or Sinkhole. And it really can win games countering Goyfs or Price of Progress (decks with PoP are really dangerous without Snare). I don't think we have to go through all of Spell Snares advantages again.
Counterspell is just not that good in the early game and often in the mid neither. You just don't always have UU (especially not against decks like Merfolk or Pikula). If you play an expensive spell like Elspeth or Humility you often can't keep UU open for CS while needing your Tundras for WW. There is not always the Force as an answer for a threat then.
I think 3 is the correct number for it, because it is obviously a great card in Landstill, but you don't want to have it all the time like for example StPS.
Cunning Wish may be a good card in Landstill, but I think everyone should play AT LEAST 3 Spell Snare. If you want Cunning Wish then find room for it somewhere else. In the fast Legacy Meta nowadays Spell Snare is a must. I play 4 FoW, 4 Spell Snare, 3 CS and I think this is the best you can do. Landstill just needs a heavy permission suite.
Every time I think about going to 3 Snare to fit other great cards in the deck I just don't do it in the end. I'd rather go down to 2 CS. Spell Snare just rocks!
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spur Grappler
I really don't get your point here. Spell Snare is just great against Thresh. It can counter Goyf and Balance as you said and these are the cards that are most dangerous for us. You don't need any more card advantage than your normal draw engine here. Thresh has NO card advantage at all.
Besides, Thresh is one of our best matchups even without Spell Snare, so why do you try to argument on the Spell Snare issue with this matchup?
There are so many decks Spell Snare is just unbelievable against: Goyf Sligh, Merfolk, every deck with CB, all the stuff that plays Hymn or Sinkhole. And it really can win games countering Goyfs or Price of Progress (decks with PoP are really dangerous without Snare). I don't think we have to go through all of Spell Snares advantages again.
Counterspell is just not that good in the early game and often in the mid neither. You just don't always have UU (especially not against decks like Merfolk or Pikula). If you play an expensive spell like Elspeth or Humility you often can't keep UU open for CS while needing your Tundras for WW. There is not always the Force as an answer for a threat then.
I think 3 is the correct number for it, because it is obviously a great card in Landstill, but you don't want to have it all the time like for example StPS.
Cunning Wish may be a good card in Landstill, but I think everyone should play AT LEAST 3 Spell Snare. If you want Cunning Wish then find room for it somewhere else. In the fast Legacy Meta nowadays Spell Snare is a must. I play 4 FoW, 4 Spell Snare, 3 CS and I think this is the best you can do. Landstill just needs a heavy permission suite.
Every time I think about going to 3 Snare to fit other great cards in the deck I just don't do it in the end. I'd rather go down to 2 CS. Spell Snare just rocks!
Well the point I am trying to make is, I think spell snare would be much better off in the sideboard instead. I just think it's too narrow of a card to be worth in the main.
As for the threshold matchup; Countertop threshold does have alot of stuff going for it and card advantage is definitely one of them. Countertop creates massive card advantage for them and I don't think it'll do any good to counter their counterbalance and goyf because they will find replacements soon enough with their cantrips. I also concern much more about sensei's divining top then counterbalance or goyf. It'll definitely be good to get a solid answer for top and spell snare isn't one of them.
As for Cunning Wish; it's still good in this format because it can steal you wins even against countertop aggro-control as I previously mentioned. Cunning wish gives you alot of flexibility and I think that outweighs it's speed efficiency by a large margin.
Also, spell snare isn't really all that great against goyf sligh thanks to vexing shusher. They can pretty much just hold back until they draw both PoP and shusher and just hit you for infinite anytime they want. So spell snare is bad there and if your metagame is full of goyf sligh either play a different deck or board in COP: Red.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Please explain how countertop creates cardadvantage, besides blindly feeding brainstorms/plows into their grinder. There's so many ways to prevent, get rid of or downright ignore the cb/top engine that I'm genuinely wondering how this is a means to create 'massive cardadvantage'.
Edit: By no means am I calling you a bad player or insinuating you're 'doing it wrong', I'm sincerely wondering about this.
