[Deck] Zoo

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Alternatively though, you have to think about what other aggressive decks you could be running instead. It seems like the better choice would be between playing a midranged Zoo and Storm.

Storm combo is faster, more consistent, and just plain better against all of fast Zoo's good MUs (D&T, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo). Storm and fast Zoo both have bad MU's VS Countertop, although admittedly Storm has a worse MU against CTop than Zoo. Storm is also better at some of Zoo's fair-to-bad MUs (Rock, Enchantress, other combo). Even a good MU that splashes Black for Perish is potentially terrible for any Zoo. Both Zoo's have trouble with Combo, although the faster Zoo would obviously have a better chance.

So why play Zoo at all? Because with the right build, you can get a fair MU vs Countertop and still keep your good MUs good. You're trading game against Storm for game against CTop. Let CTop decks hate out the Storm, they're better at it anyways.

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Well, I'm biased in my opinion because I play Sligh, not Fast Zoo. Sligh is fundamentally different from Zoo; I play 4 green creatures total (so good luck with Perish), and even if the opponent casts a Firespout, I usually don't care. Most decks aren't casting Firespout until turn 3, and by that point I'm only a Bolt or two away from the win anyway.

My Sligh list goldfishes turn 3 frequently, and almost never past turn 4. Obviously in live games, it takes longer to actually win (unless I literally am goldfishing my opponent), but my domination over the board is still there.

CounterTop is only a bad matchup for my Sligh deck if my opponent has a perfect draw; Turn 1 Top turn 2 Counterbalance might shut off most of my deck, but it doesn't handle my creature swarm that is already on the board; they still need Firespout/Goyf/etc. Most of the time, my CounterTop opponent's simply don't get the lock into play before they are dead. So while I would still say it's not a great matchup, it's not a horrible matchup either.

My Sligh list still smashes Rock, Enchantress, etc. The biggest difference between Sligh and Storm Combo I would say is deck difficulty. Sligh has relatively all the same good matchups as Storm Combo, similar bad matchups (in some cases), but Sligh is much easier to pilot. In a smaller tournament this might not matter, but a deck that pretty much autopilots itself stands a greater chance of doing well at a large event, especially if the player piloting the deck isn't a Pro or really good at Magic. My Sligh list I posted is rediculously consistent and redundant, and just gets in there for lethal through all sorts of setbacks; it's very resilient.

Storm Combo is easily hated, Sligh is not. Storm Combo loses to Merfolk, Sligh destroys Merfolk. Merfolk is arguably the most popular and most consistent performing Tier 1 deck in the format.

I realize this is a Zoo thread, and that I'm discussing Sligh right now, but that's only to explain my point. I think Fast Zoo is better positioned in the metagame for various reasons, and I think Sligh is the best variation of Fast Zoo. My 2 cents.

I don't think going too far on the slow side is the right answer either. I disagree with playing Noble Hierarchs and Wastelands in Zoo just as much as I do Steppe Lynx and 16+ Burn spells. My point is that if you are going to go down the path of pure speed, Storm is faster and more versatile. Storm has just as good a chance at racing Countertop as Sligh does, but Countertop still crushes both more often than not. If you want to play Zoo in a big tournament right now, you are going to have to play something that has a better than iffy Countertop MU. If you are adjusting your deck to your local meta then that's cool too, but that's not what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Well, I'm biased in my opinion because I play Sligh, not Fast Zoo. Sligh is fundamentally different from Zoo; I play 4 green creatures total (so good luck with Perish), and even if the opponent casts a Firespout, I usually don't care. Most decks aren't casting Firespout until turn 3, and by that point I'm only a Bolt or two away from the win anyway.

My Sligh list goldfishes turn 3 frequently, and almost never past turn 4. Obviously in live games, it takes longer to actually win (unless I literally am goldfishing my opponent), but my domination over the board is still there.

CounterTop is only a bad matchup for my Sligh deck if my opponent has a perfect draw; Turn 1 Top turn 2 Counterbalance might shut off most of my deck, but it doesn't handle my creature swarm that is already on the board; they still need Firespout/Goyf/etc. Most of the time, my CounterTop opponent's simply don't get the lock into play before they are dead. So while I would still say it's not a great matchup, it's not a horrible matchup either.

My Sligh list still smashes Rock, Enchantress, etc. The biggest difference between Sligh and Storm Combo I would say is deck difficulty. Sligh has relatively all the same good matchups as Storm Combo, similar bad matchups (in some cases), but Sligh is much easier to pilot. In a smaller tournament this might not matter, but a deck that pretty much autopilots itself stands a greater chance of doing well at a large event, especially if the player piloting the deck isn't a Pro or really good at Magic. My Sligh list I posted is rediculously consistent and redundant, and just gets in there for lethal through all sorts of setbacks; it's very resilient.

Storm Combo is easily hated, Sligh is not. Storm Combo loses to Merfolk, Sligh destroys Merfolk. Merfolk is arguably the most popular and most consistent performing Tier 1 deck in the format.

I realize this is a Zoo thread, and that I'm discussing Sligh right now, but that's only to explain my point. I think Fast Zoo is better positioned in the metagame for various reasons, and I think Sligh is the best variation of Fast Zoo. My 2 cents.

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So you are you playing 4 Goyfs or 4 Nacatls in your sligh version? I'm guessing you use Goblin Guide, Steppe Lynx, Wild Nacatl, and Grim Lavamancer as your dudes and it's chock full of burn (Bolts, Chains, Fireblasts, Helix's). I'd also be interested in seeing what Green Sun's Zenith could do for you to get a dude down in the face of Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

I'd be interested in a list. Maybe not a list on here, but a link to your list? Thanks!

BTW, I don't think Perish/Firespout/CounterTop are as scary as Chalice of the Void @1 for a sligh deck.

Took Zoo to indi this weekend and tested out GSZ. It's the real deal. From grabbing the 1-of teeg main deck to beat ANT game one twice, to getting 3x QP vs stoneforge mystic deck, to just forcing the deck to give me my third and fourth goyf match after match, this card really ties the room together. I lost the 1st round to the countertop that I think went on to win it, then lost my second round 5 rounds later to classic tempo thresh and dropped to be able to get home before 3am.

matches from memory:
0-2 vs CB-top (game 2 mull to 4)
2-0 vs Sligh (Helix is good, basics are tech)
2-1 vs ANT (Orim's chant took him by surprise, GSZ to teeg ftw)
2-1 vs Sligh (Helix is good, basics are tech)
2-0 vs ANT (MD teeg ftw, silence effects took it home)
2-1 vs Junk (QP on demand to pop jitte and both swords, thanks GSZ)
1-2 vs Tempo Thresh (waste, stifle fetch, stifle fetch, game. g2 went normally. g3 waste, stifle fetch, stifle fetch game.)

Overall I didn't see too many Zoo decks in what I figured would be a meta that's very good for Zoo. I heard one Big Zoo did well, wish I could've been matched up against it or watched a match, because I've only heard about it, never seen it in action really. Seems like I'd rather play blue if I wanted to go the noble heirarch into big stupid dudes at the expense of burn route but maybe I'm wrong.

Zoo Gold

Land: 21
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy

Attack Dudes: 20
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore (probly cutting it, wasn't as tech as I thought, even with trample, and chinese in case they forget)
1 Gaddock Teeg

Burn: 12
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix

Good Stuff: 7
4 Path to Exile
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Notes:
Grim is a burn spell to me. He's terrible t1, I really don't want to ever see him or even draw him before turn 4 ever. He stays in because of the bad things he does to certain decks, but we aren't great friends.
I use Kird Ape instead of steppe lynx because he can participate in combat. He can block t1 lackey, in fact he can block without holding back fetches and diluting his attacks. Steppe Lynx is very swingy, and builds momentum if you're on the play, but he's a wet noodle to me when you're playing catch up. He's the perfect, amazing sligh-style dude for 1, but I don't care for him in standard zoo.
I don't use loam lion because the ftv picture of kird ape is way cooler. Also, if I dropped him I could no longer say I play with kitties and monkeys. And BEB on kird ape is pretty narrow.
I think I'm ready to go back to 4x Windswept Heath and down to 3x Arid Mesa. Zendikar fetches might've gotten me overzealous and I'm not playing Fireblast any longer, so the extra 1 g/w basic grabber is better than r/w.

The day before I went 2-2 at the legacy challenge thing, beating ANT 2-0, Junk 2-1, then losing to Belcher 2-0 and something else I've forgotten. Got one pack for my troubles, opened a foil Thrun. seems good.

I picked up 3 GSZ's for the exact reason you mentioned: toolbox. It gives zoo better game 1 mu's vs. combo (with Teeg maindeck) and you can run silver bullets in the sideboard (Vexing Shusher for example.) At a minimum, you get more Nacatls in the early game. Turn 1 Steppe Lynx, turn 2 GSZ into Nacatl isn't a bad play at all.

what do we do against a Phyrexian Crusader ? do i have to use crap like: Lignify ?

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Originally Posted by CaBaaL

what do we do against a Phyrexian Crusader ? do i have to use crap like: Lignify ?

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Ghostfire or Pyrite Spellbomb if its really troublesome but better just block it with Goyf or Nacatl.

Is Phyrexian Crusader really that prevalent?

Also: has anybody ever tested Journey to Nowhere in place of Path to Exile? It's a turn slower, but won't boost their tempo.

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Originally Posted by CaBaaL

what do we do against a Phyrexian Crusader ? do i have to use crap like: Lignify ?

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You drop from the low tables and find something else to do?

I'm fairly certain that Infect won't be relevant in Legacy for a while, at least not until more powerful cards are printed. Until then, I'm not too worried about it. If I run into it in my first round of Swiss, it apparently isn't my day.

Played Zoo today. Round 1: Show and Tell. Round 2: Tendrils. Flip the table. /peace

definitely zoo's fault.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Played Zoo today. Round 1: Show and Tell. Round 2: Tendrils. Flip the table. /peace

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This is my issue with the Zoo deck. You will always be unfavored against any deck that wins via spells. In the current Legacy format, I find that winning that way is more appealing to more players. As Legacy becomes more competitive, losing to the scrubs playing combo is a hard pill to swallow for me. Merfolk and Goblins are cheap to build, But I'm seeing more and more players packing Show and Tell, Tendrils, and Natural Order. When you have 0 say over the spells on the stack, you have to dedicate your deck to beating the fair decks. Such is the product of not playing U or B in Legacy. However, decks like Counterbalance, Lands, and MUD can have great Zoo matchups anyway. Yes this deck is a marvel of consistency, but you fold to too much of the room for my taste.

In General, We're all looking to play the best deck. The best cards in Legacy (Brainstorm, Force, Spell Snare) are all in blue. It's often been said that Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary are actually blue cards, but what of Wild Nacatl? Nacatl to me is the fundamental reason to play Naya. However, we've seen Zoo with blue do really well at GP Chicago already.

Kurtis Droge's Blue Zoo circa 2009

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Kird Ape
2 Ranger of Eos
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Fire/Ice
4 Ponder
2 Path to Exile
1 Rushing River
4 Spell Snare

3 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Stifle
1 Submerge
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
4 Tormod's Crypt


So the premise is simple. The blue cards in Legacy are too good not to play. For example, Brainstorm + Fetchlands is a pillar of good Legacy. Superior card selection at all points in the game, and digging power. Force of Will and Daze are what stops combo dead, while not being dead in other matchups. Since Wild Nacatl is not barred from blue deck, why not play him? He's a wonderful attacker and blocker, and his mana cost is obviously ideal. Pumping Nacatl is made possible by Tundra, Volcanic Island, and the Plateau. Enemy colored fetches make this prospect even easier to execute than it was, and I've been working on my own take. Knight of the Reliquary seems stronger than Ranger of Eos, and Kird Ape is just outdated. Howabout this?

Blue Zoo, circa 2011

3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Windswept Heath

3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
4 Wasteland

4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

I could see the matchup with aggro to be weakened, but Pyroclasm in the board is sexy. Combo matches become sighs of relief, and the rogue factor is everpresent. Blowouts with Stifle/Wasteland can happen, and Countering spells makes your creatures more devastating. I've just found the Blue to be much better than the Red. Lightning bolt and Chain lightning are great against some decks, but against others they're just a liability. Shouldn't the best deck in Legacy only play cards that are always good? Opinions, please.

My first thought was, "Well, why don't I just play Bant?"

Well, it looks like you've reinvented Tempo Thresh.

I think it looks interesting. My biggest worry would be that 4 colors is already going to be stretching the manabase, and adding wastelands on top of that seems risky. Nacatl does seem like an upgrade to any bant 1 drops.

I'm curious to know how this works out for you.

If we're toying with theory here, I found one huge hole in your logic. "Scrubs playing Combo" are often good match ups if oneself is practiced with Zoo. The only time I've lost to Storm was when I was playing against someone who knew how to play the deck. It's not fair to only consider card lists when analyzing match ups, the player aspect is of great importance as well. Give a noob a deck, and he'll play in a tournament. Teach a noob how to build a deck, and he's not a noob anymore.

Otherwise, I agree that you just reinvented Thresh

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

As Legacy becomes more competitive, losing to the scrubs playing combo is a hard pill to swallow for me.

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I take offense at this, being a combo player. However, the post above mine is also correct in that combo is not generally as bad a matchup for zoo as most people think. Preboard, yeah, if they get the nuts it's gg. However, if they don't, and you mulligan into fast hands (preferably with several one drops), you have a great chance especially if you're on the play. This is especially true for combo decks focused around engines that involve losing life (Ad Nauseam, Doomsday).

Postboard, all you need to do is slow them down for a turn or two with hate, and the sheer speed and consistency of this deck will get you there a lot of the time. Keep in mind it's also quite possible to race Show and Tell if your hand is reasonably quick. Packing Red Blasts is also a good way to improve that matchup.

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Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

My first thought was, "Well, why don't I just play Bant?"

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Wild Nacatl is the reason.

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I think it looks interesting. My biggest worry would be that 4 colors is already going to be stretching the manabase, and adding wastelands on top of that seems risky.

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People get so caught up in how many colors they're playing. What you should be looking at is what cards you're trying to cast. Do you see any red symbols of mana in the maindeck? That means I only need 3 colors of mana. Volcanic Island has the benefit of being a mountain. That's why this idea is viable in the first place. If you look closely, my list plays 23! lands with Wasteland. I've tested the deck, and it runs smoothly.

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If we're toying with theory here, I found one huge hole in your logic. "Scrubs playing Combo" are often good match ups if oneself is practiced with Zoo. The only time I've lost to Storm was when I was playing against someone who knew how to play the deck

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But Jandax, Obviously anyone entering a tournament with Storm knows how to play it. It's not hard to play a deck of combination Magic cards and win with it. People who play combo are typically the people trying to win the easiest way they know how. These are the people that will be easy to outplay if your deck is capable of it, but Zoo isn't capable of responding to anything like that game 1. Yes, tight play can yield wins against combo, but in my testing the matchup was always abysmal, no matter how fast my deck was.

Combo decks don't need the "nuts" to goldfish Zoo. They need an assortment of cards and mana to cast their spells, that's it. I'm simply pointing out that you can run the most powerful creatures from this deck in a blue shell. I think the deck is better for it, but time will tell.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

But Jandax, Obviously anyone entering a tournament with Storm knows how to play it. It's not hard to play a deck of combination Magic cards and win with it. People who play combo are typically the people trying to win the easiest way they know how. These are the people that will be easy to outplay if your deck is capable of it, but Zoo isn't capable of responding to anything like that game 1. Yes, tight play can yield wins against combo, but in my testing the matchup was always abysmal, no matter how fast my deck was.

Combo decks don't need the "nuts" to goldfish Zoo. They need an assortment of cards and mana to cast their spells, that's it. I'm simply pointing out that you can run the most powerful creatures from this deck in a blue shell. I think the deck is better for it, but time will tell.

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I disagree with your statement. I play combo, and I have to admit it is one of the most difficult decks I have ever played (I've also played Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, Stax, Affinity to name a few). Sure some of them like Spring Tide or Belcher take no thought at all, but the others such as TES, ANT, and DDFT are some of the most complex decks you can learn. That is the reason I like them though. Not because I want to win as fast as I can, it's because I love the complexity of the deck.

Sure people starting out playing combo probably think, "Oh, I'll just goldfish people and win." But those are the ones who have no idea what they are doing and get massacred in a tournament.

Also, if you think it is not that hard to "outplay a combo player" or that it's easy to win playing combo because that's what your deck is designed to do, I dare you to try it out. Then try it out with your opponent having 2 Force of Will and 2 Spell Pierce in their opening 7 or with a Gaddock Teeg out on the field. I hardly call having a Teeg out, outplaying someone.

Off topic, but it's easy for a player to Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam and win (or kill themselves).

But it's hard for a scrub to Doomsday with 16 storm.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Postboard, all you need to do is slow them down for a turn or two with hate, and the sheer speed and consistency of this deck will get you there a lot of the time. Keep in mind it's also quite possible to race Show and Tell if your hand is reasonably quick. Packing Red Blasts is also a good way to improve that matchup.

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main deck karakas plus Kotr helps a ton vs show and tell too

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Originally Posted by zmattk

I disagree with your statement. I play combo, and I have to admit it is one of the most difficult decks I have ever played (I've also played Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, Stax, Affinity to name a few). Sure some of them like Spring Tide or Belcher take no thought at all, but the others such as TES, ANT, and DDFT are some of the most complex decks you can learn. That is the reason I like them though. Not because I want to win as fast as I can, it's because I love the complexity of the deck.

Sure people starting out playing combo probably think, "Oh, I'll just goldfish people and win." But those are the ones who have no idea what they are doing and get massacred in a tournament.

Also, if you think it is not that hard to "outplay a combo player" or that it's easy to win playing combo because that's what your deck is designed to do, I dare you to try it out. Then try it out with your opponent having 2 Force of Will and 2 Spell Pierce in their opening 7 or with a Gaddock Teeg out on the field. I hardly call having a Teeg out, outplaying someone.

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If everyone could stop taking everything so personally, that would be great.

I played T.E.S. for over a year. This was before Ad Nauseam and after, with Mystical Tutor and without. I know all about how complex that deck is, with playing around Counters, Discard, Hate Pieces. I was referring also to different decks. Ooze combo, Painter-Stone, Thopter Foundry, Show and Tell, Reanimator, and Storm. These decks win too fast for Zoo, and do it with ease. They're also becoming more popular. Storm is harder to play because it requires perfect sequencing against Blue decks. If you make a single mistake, you can get 2, 3, or X for 1ed by 0cc/1cc blue spells. That's pretty high pressure. Is Combo hard to play against Zoo? Absolutely not. They can ignore your cards pre-board, and you have to get lucky to win. I would rather play a deck with the same amazing creatures, that has blue cards that are good in every matchup. It seems like sound logic.

I think your deck looks interesting but I think you end up with a much better combo matchup and a much worse tribal aggro matchup. Its hard to say if that makes the deck better or worse in the aggregate.

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Originally Posted by ajfennewald

main deck karakas plus Kotr helps a ton vs show and tell too

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While I hate butchering the manabase to handle literally one matchup, the next list I play will probably have 3 KOTR MD and 1 Karakas. I do share everyones' sentiments in this thread of losing to Combo decks, and while packing Red Blasts is probably a good idea anyways (Merfolk, CBTop, Control), it generally isn't going to be enough. An addition 2-3 REB will probably not increase your chances of beating SnT by that much.

With a little less tribal than the other 5K's (2 in the Top 16 this time), I don't think the change will affect a whole lot. Your MD should be configured to beat the elephant in the room, right now it's Counterbalance.

I think the main concern is not whether or not zoo is a good deck...it is and always will be. The real quandry is 'how do I make it work?"

I've been toying around with naya sligh, with great results. The one deck that it really folds against is Staxx...and Staxx isn't that prevalent right now. I suppose Dragon Stompy is a concern as well because it touts the whole Chalice/Trini route to locking out an opponent. The biggest fear is that kind of lock with a sligh deck, because it turns your fast turns off. Chalice @1 on TURN 1 with Ancient Tomb makes me say 'poop'. Turn 2 Trinisphere delays my Pridemages, and makes me need alternative hate in my sideboard (Grips or Ancient Grudge.) If I take too long to get to 3 lands or they hit a Wasteland or 2, I say 'Big juicy poop. Game 2?'

My testing is essentially naya sligh, but keeping Pridemage and Path to Exile maindeck rather than the faster Goblin Guide/added burn. Path can be sb-ed out game 2 for more burn or hatebears, and Pridemage gives you options game one against a fast Chalice. Steppe Lynx and Nacatl become lightning fast with Reckless Charge, giving you a slightly faster clock. This opens you up to some mid-range control decks (Bant, New Horizons, Junk/Rock) but hopefully by that time you've gotten them to 10 life and you can Fireblast/Grim Lavamancer/Bolt your way to victory.

I think the real problem with Naya Sligh is it's lack of ability to re-group and bring mid-late game options. I'm fairly certain that a minimum of 2-3 Sylvan Librarys should be in Naya Sligh, and a playset wouldn't be bad either. Naya Sligh (any sligh really) historically has a hard time against ANY lifegain, too, so Sulfuric Vortex becomes a solid option in the board (assuming 21 lands.)

I"m curious if anyone else debating the faster Reckless Charge/additional burn avenue over the bigger Knight of the Reliquary mid-game beats. I'm also curious how many Library's you are using currently, and if you feel that it's workign well/not well (I currently use 2)

I was wondering if anyone has any insight on why zoo does not appear to be a tier one deck anymore. The field still looks like one it should perform reasonably well against (lotsa merfolk and goblins not a ton of combo).

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Originally Posted by ajfennewald

I was wondering if anyone has any insight on why zoo does not appear to be a tier one deck anymore. The field still looks like one it should perform reasonably well against (lotsa merfolk and goblins not a ton of combo).

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I'm not entirely sure. I think it may be partly due to Counterbalance's resurgence (Zoo has never liked CTop very much), but I think it has more to do with people just not playing the deck. The one zoo player in my meta has been tearing it up, getting top-2 just about every week through a field of heavy control, chalice decks, and occasional combo. Also, I think too many people are deluding themselves into thinking "Big Zoo" is actually a real deck, which leads to them not doing well.

EDIT: Another issue is that a lot of the tribal decks are now splashing black for Perish/Nature's Ruin, which makes the matchup a LOT worse for zoo (especially "Big Zoo") postboard.

It depends on where you're looking.

Maybe the people in your area are fighting combo verses control and there isn't much room for aggro decks to make it to the top tables before facing more than one bad match up. You have to be specific when mentioning things like Tier X or metagame, not everyone everywhere is having the same experience.

Personally it's not a bad choice to run Nacatls around here, more people are doing so.

Does Thrun have a place in Zoo? It avoids Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, and Firespout. Perish wouldn't be a problem since the decks that usually pack Perish to beat Zoo (Merfolk and Goblins usually in my experience) don't need Thrun boarded in. The 4/4 body is unimpressive, especially when facing Goyf in CB but Elspeth certainly makes Thrun really good.

I know this idea would probably get dismissed anyway but I'm gonna give it a run for at least a little bit. I saw it in an Enchantress vs CB matchup (Enchantress player played it) and the Counterbalance player couldn't get rid of it.

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Originally Posted by ajfennewald

I was wondering if anyone has any insight on why zoo does not appear to be a tier one deck anymore. The field still looks like one it should perform reasonably well against (lotsa merfolk and goblins not a ton of combo).

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People probably have no idea 1) how to build a good sideboard and 2) how to sideboard correctly. Also, people are probably not building their maindeck correctly in relation to the current metagame.

*edit*

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Counterbalance's resurgence (Zoo has never liked CTop very much)

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Call.

Again, I think most players do not really understand what's going on in the matchups. And, as a result, they are not sideboard'ing correctly.

For that reason, I think every Zoo sideboard should have three Sulfuric Vortex. It's not a hate card, it's a speedier clock. CB doesn't want a speedier clock and when does it bring in or keeps Enchantment hate? I also agree that most players don't understand match ups well enough to formulate sideboard strategies.

Hi, i am building my legacy zoo now and i am deciding what version to build. My local metagame is full of aggro-control, control and weird combos. For example last top8 was Stax, Combo Elves, Rock, Landstill, Merfolk, Enchantress, BG Discard and Dredge.

I think the best version riight now is fast version called Cat Sligh - Nacatl, Goyf, Guide, Lavamancer, Steppe lynx and a lot of burn - you are fast enought to beat slower combo decks and you can land enought creatures to fight counterbalance before they have countertop lock. But i see that people play a lot of different versions like Big Zoo with Hiearchs or with Stoneforge Mystic etc.
Can someone help me with this decision?

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Originally Posted by GhekoN

Hi, i am building my legacy zoo now and i am deciding what version to build. My local metagame is full of aggro-control, control and weird combos. For example last top8 was Stax, Combo Elves, Rock, Landstill, Merfolk, Enchantress, BG Discard and Dredge.

I think the best version riight now is fast version called Cat Sligh - Nacatl, Goyf, Guide, Lavamancer, Steppe lynx and a lot of burn - you are fast enought to beat slower combo decks and you can land enought creatures to fight counterbalance before they have countertop lock. But i see that people play a lot of different versions like Big Zoo with Hiearchs or with Stoneforge Mystic etc.
Can someone help me with this decision?

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Don't run Big Zoo in this meta. The sligh build probably has the best chance of racing Enchantress and Dredge, so I would play that. It also has the best chance against storm combo (if that shows up) due to its speed and large amounts of burn. For that matter, having 20+ burn spells is really good against elf combo as well.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Don't run Big Zoo in this meta. The sligh build probably has the best chance of racing Enchantress and Dredge, so I would play that. It also has the best chance against storm combo (if that shows up) due to its speed and large amounts of burn. For that matter, having 20+ burn spells is really good against elf combo as well.

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I like Big Zoo in general, but I would agree with Admiral_Arzar here. Play normal Zoo or Cat Sligh.

Hi, after a hours of testing fast - medium fast version of zoo i am still not contended with my results.

My list:

4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [MBS] Forest
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [MBS] Plains
3 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills


4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl


2 [HOP] Lightning Helix
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [DD2] Fireblast
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
2 [EX] Price of Progress

Problems i had during testing:

1. Lands - Constantly drawing only one land or 4-5, every time i had Steppe Lynx i my openenig hand i never draw third land during 5-6 turns...

2. Steppe Lynx - It is nice and aggresive creature, but in deck with 21 lands?? Too often it was just 0/1 for x turns which cant block... I am really thinking about playing Kird Ape or Loam Lion instead.

3. Knight of the Reliquary - I started without him but sometimes this deck cant deal with opponents Knights or bigger creatures and also he can fuel Steppe Lynx. Also another card vs. Dredge and graveyard stuff after sb.

Some thoughts or ideas? :)

How do you guys approach using fetchlands in the Goblins matchup? We're definitely favored, but it's not a cakewalk anymore.

Obviously, it depends on how many lands you have in your hand, the color requirements, whether you're applying pressure (or if they're applying pressure on you, especially with an active Vial). But do you tend to fetch out basics to protect against Wasteland? But that allows them to cut you off a color with Rishadan Port. What considerations do you make in this process?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GhekoN

2. Steppe Lynx - It is nice and aggresive creature, but in deck with 21 lands?? Too often it was just 0/1 for x turns which cant block... I am really thinking about playing Kird Ape or Loam Lion instead.

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You should be SB'ing Steppe Lynx out against Aggro decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KrzyMoose

You should be SB'ing Steppe Lynx out against Aggro decks.

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Why would you want to do that? And what do you suggest to play instead?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crazy Eddie

Why would you want to do that? And what do you suggest to play instead?

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The first step is to understand what you want to be doing in each matchup.

Here's my current list:

21 Lands, with 11 Fetchlands, 3 Basics, and 1 Treetop Village

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ranger of Eos

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast

Sideboard:
2 Ranger of Eos
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bajuka Bog
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Let's take a look at the Zoo mirror. Neither of you can really get off to a super-fast start, since you both have a lot of removal that's good against the small dudes. The games, then, tend to go long, and it usually comes down to whoever draws more Tarmogoyfs/Paths/Knights. In general, you want to be the guy with the last, biggest monster on the table. (Though, this is true of many other Aggro matchups, not just the mirror). So, how do you do that? By having bigger guys and more removal than your opponent. You want your threats to be hard to answer, and you want to align your removal with your opponents threats.

Steppe Lynx (and, for that matter, Kird Ape and Loam Lion) is both smaller than your opponent's threats and very easy to answer. That does not sound like where you want to be.

So, post-board, we want better (and more) removal, and better threats.

A quick aside on building a sideboard: Every card in your sideboard should be able to be brought in against at least 2 decks. I feel that cards should answer different archetypes or general problems, rather than specific decks. Also, yes, I can't beat a fast combo deck. That's on purpose.

Path to Exile becomes the best spell in the deck, so we want more of them. Swords to Plowshares is the next best thing, so I recommend them. (The life-gain is usually irrelevant). They also come in against a bunch of different decks. Oblivion Ring is also pretty good, and very versatile.

You can think of Ranger of Eos as a 6-mana 9/8 or a 6-mana 6/5 with R: deal 2 damage to target creature or player. It's also pretty much immune to removal.

So, we have 6 cards to bring in. We know for sure we're taking Steppe Lynx/Loam Lion/Kird Ape out. What else? Well, your other creatures are actually all good enough to leave in. So that leaves spells. Lightning Bolt and Path obviously stay in, since they're the best at what they do. Sylvan Library helps you find your threats and answers. That leaves the other burn spells. I actually like Fireblast in the mirror. Since games tend to go long, you're never short on mana. I often just straight-up cast it, and even paying the alternate cost is not that bad. Lightning Helix is an instant, and helps you activate Library more. So, that gets the nod over Chain Lightning.

That's a brief explanation. I could easily write an article on Zoo, since there is always a lot going on. But, that should give you some idea of my thought process.

KrzyMoose: thank you for your explanation. I understand your point, but you've limited yourself to the Zoo Mirror. Over here (the Netherlands) Zoo isn't that often played, so Zoo mirrors are quite rare, Merfolk and Gobbo's are the more popular aggro decks here. But given the popularity of those decks, I'm thinking about replacing my Steppe Lynxes for Kird Apes again, since they are also capable of blocking early Lackeys etc.
Also: my mainboard is comparable, but my sideboard looks quite different:
- 2x Umezawa's Jitte (Goblins, Merfolk, Mirror, other decks with Jitte's)
- 3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (Rock, Control, Mirror, CounterTop)
- 3x Krosan Grip
- 2x Choke (quite Flexible at this moment)
- 4x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves, anything that wants to cast a lot of spells)
- 1x Karakas/Bojuka Bog/meta-slot

Since I'm thinking about putting Kird Apes back into the mainboard, I can lower my number of fetches slightly, play three different basics (currently only one Mountain), and put Suppresion Fiels again in the board, since it's really good against anything with lots of fetches, Wastelands, Tops, Planeswalkers, etc.