So with all these true Name's out in force, I think it's time to finally invest in a moat for the sb.
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So with all these true Name's out in force, I think it's time to finally invest in a moat for the sb.
Yeah, Merfolk is rough. They're the fastest blue aggro deck, which means they can counter our sweepers while applying lots of early pressure. I'm kinda worried if Merfolk has a resurgance. Moat and the like might become more mainstream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
G1, it sounds like you might have played your Jaces out too early. If they already have factory in play, I would not play my Jace without a way to protect it, either through removal or Clique. Just take the Factory beats for a while until you have a better plan. If they have tons of discard, I think we play much better than them off the top of the deck. But getting flooded is just bad luck (which is why I like 22 land + Ponder).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
G3 Turn 1 Liliana is ROUGH. Lucky you had the Needle. Not seeing one of your 8-9 removal spells, or any Venser, Jace, Clique, or even Entreat seems like just really bad luck. Tombstalker should be not a huge problem for us.
I'm surprised TES went off turn 1 post board. Usually combo decks slow down after game 1. Not sure what your hand was, but you might have to mulligan more aggressively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
I don't like the maindeck Rest in Peace either. Against too many matchups it's just dead. 4th STP and Moat are all solid choices. I think 8 Counterspells MD is the correct number, split that how you want between Force, Pierce, CS, Misdirection, and Flusterstorm. I wouldn't cut the Counterbalance for it though. If you find you're having a rough time against combo, I'd cut a Misdirection for a Force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
I think Snapcaster is fine in Miracles, but the problem is Rest in Peace. It's such a good card in the Jund/Shardless/RUG matchups that just generates too much bad synergy with Snaps.
Anyways, sounds like you've gained some experience and have a plan to improve. Good luck!
Hi All!
It is so good to read your threads every day. I play Legacy everyday on cocatrice (ubcontrol) and in real life as much as I can. My choice is 2/2 between the Snapcasters and Cliques because of my meta is discard and creature heavy. I run Venser in the SB. I finished 3rd with the Moat version in our monthly „national” event the so called Legacy League. This days I prefer the 1 Supreme Verdict and the 4th CB main deck instead of the Moat and the second Ponder. Before that those slots were for 2 Spell Snares.
The BoM list is very interesting. Can someone analyse this list? I have some ideas and questions about it:
23 land +1 in the sideboard. Because of Wasteland and Port and the 3rd Entreat not to miss any landrop.
10 Fetches to find easier what you need and get read of what is unnecessary with the Tops and Brainstorms.
3MD Entreat to win fast and stop attacking creatures.
No Misdirection. How do you stop discard spells?
3 Swords. Because of you use rather mass removals 4 MD 3 SB.
Only one Flusterstorm and no Canonist in the SB. I think storm is a bad match up. The 4 CB stops combo efficiently?
What do you think the player would have changed after the event?
Thank you!
Storm should be easier than show and tell because even a blind counterbalance is a beating. Against storm, you might want to Spell Pierce cantrips for value early in the game. Once their cabals hit threshold, spell pierces don't do much. Generally I'm not a fan of supreme verdict. It generates a clog at the 4cc slot. I think a full set of terminus, supplemented by some Snapcasters for swords as value is sufficient. For those who don't run Snapcaster, supreme verdict seems ok.
I think moat is great as a 1 off in the board or main. Anything more makes it quite clunky. But if it hits, it can take over the game. I have the 3rd entreat and a moat in the board for the gobs matchup. Imo with all this TNN hype, Miracles is very well positioned right now.
The Mountain is for bringing in REBs/Pyroclasms against Wasteland/Port decks. I haven't found it necessary, but you'll see it occasionally. Why 23 MD even with a land in the SB? My guess is that he just didn't want to drop below 23 land ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by UB Control
I prefer 10 fetches: 4 Flooded, 4 Blue, 2 Arid.Quote:
Originally Posted by UB Control
Possibly a meta choice. Most lists are running 3 Entreat between the 75. I'd guess that running 3 MD might mean he was more worried about GBx midranged decks than combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by UB Control
You don't. Just resolve Top and you hand doesn't matter so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by UB Control
This one is out of Lossett's playbook. I'd rather see 4/4 than 3/4, but more sweepers is definitely better against Nemesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by UB Control
I prefer Canonist over Flusterstorm, especially since he isn't running Snapcaster. Combo is never a bad MU, but the faster ones always have those quick "getcha" hands that can sometimes minimize your interaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by UB Control
I wonder how they liked the 2 Pyroclasms in the SB. I've warmed up to Pyroclasm more and more over the last month, but it gets a lot worse if you're staring down a True-Name Nemesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by UB Control
Also, here's some decklists from Eternal Weekend: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...al13/legacy#6a
I'm the one who finished 2nd in the French Legacy National on Friday and ended up 12th at the main event. I was 10-0 and i needed to make 2-3 in the last 5 rounds but i couldn't manage it... I lost 2 win-and-in matches in a row... so even if it was a great weekend, i'm still very disapointed right now. I guess i will try to make a report during the week though.
Congrats! I was watching some of your games on the stream and definitely rooting for you to make top 8. Tough loss against Thomas E in the last round. I feel like you could have won game 2 against him though. Anyway, amazing job regardless, 12th is nothing to scoff at. I can't wait for a report.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka1333
Well done though, 12th out of 700 ;) I'd definitely want to read your report!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka1333
Thank you !
Yeah, i made a few bad decisions in our match ... that's why i'm even more disapointed.
Here's a RIP list:Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Paul Lynch
Eternal Championships
8th
365 players
Creature [1]
1 Vendilion Clique
Instant [16]
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery [5]
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
Artifact [6]
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles
Enchantment [7]
3 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
1 Energy Field
2 Rest in Peace
Land [22]
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Gate
2 Plains
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
Planeswalker [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
Thank you for the answers ipanpei and Dzra. Congrats Shaka1333!
Yesterday after you posted the link I played all day long the BoM list online. Although it has only 4 cards difference in MD and 3 cards in SB to my Snapcaster list, it claims a significantly different way to play! By now I couldn’t figure it out the proper way but I recognize the power in this built.
First of all sorry for the late reply but lately I'm having problems with my laptop's keyboard.
I omit that because we all are well aware of the denial plan of vial decks. But do we seriously fear 4 Wastelands and 4 Ports.decks with Miracles? I don't. It's not that hard to hit UUWW turn 4-5 in a deck packing 4 Tops 4 Brainstorms 2 Ponders,and 22 lands of which 9-10 are fetchlands and 5-6 are basics. Seriously just not cracking fetchlands most of the times is enough. Also playing filter lands helps a lot. I fear the Stifle + Wasteland plan much more (and in fact as I wrote above I don't really think about Moat during any tempo matchup).Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I mentioned SGC already, and that's Goblins only out to Moat (together with Krenko+ Sharpshooter+skirk prospector blowouts).Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I ''forgot'' to mention Mangara + Karakas+ Vial because if they menage to assemble it and you don't have answers to it, Moat will be the last of your problems, you lost already if you don't find entreat or swords immediately. If they assemble it later, fine, your Moat served you well buying time and stalling the board.
Merfolk is THE vial deck? I highly doubt so, Goblin and DnT are miles ahead. Also Merfolk never ran Counterspell.
I'm not RELYING on Moat. Dunno where you read that. If I wanted to rely on Moat I'd complete my playset and play Dutch Stax.All I'm saying is that Moat is fucking good VS lots of decks, and you could try one maindeck as an additional tool vs ground beaters, as if it shows up randomly either wins games, or buys enough time to eventually find a Terminus, an Entreat or a Jace.
@ Shaka: Congrats to your results.
I played straight UW Miracles at BoM and liked it very much:
Friday: 5 : 1 : 1
Saturday: 6 : 1 : 2 (I drew the Win-and-In and scooped to my favoured opponent; only loss against the eventual winner Julian Knab)
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Daze
2 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Back to Basics
1 Moat
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace
2 Tundra
3 Plains
7 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Sword to Plowshares
If I would have managed to play a bit faster I could have won 2 of my 3 draws (one with lethal on the board). Back to Basics was awesome all weekend, punishing all those greedy decks. Might write a report if I find the time.
Greetings
Yeah, I've been doing that already but I've been pretty happy with 'cheating' and mainboarding the basic mountain over the second volcanic for a while now. It can hurt you sometimes but it's worth having and I'd rather have the extra sideboard space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Typically you don't, because you don't need to against fair decks. You have top and a better lategame, just don't die before it comes online. I've never liked misdirection or wanted it after I tried it a few times.Quote:
Originally Posted by UB Control
I went 6-3 (54th) in Legacy Champs at Eternal Weekend with my RiP-Helm list, and saw a ton of other miracles near the top tables all day.
The list:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
1 Counterspell
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Detention Sphere
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Flusterstorm
1 Wear // Tear
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Celestial Purge
Quick partial round summary since I didn't take enough notes and was very tired on Saturday
Rd 1 - Jund (0-2)
Not a good way to start the day - lost two close games to lethal damage when I had the kill the next turn, one to a topdecked punishing fire. He played around blood moon by fetching basics in game one so I didn't board it in.
Rd 2 - TES (2-0)
Game 1 he made ten goblins after I played a top, and I was able to dig to a terminus and follow it up with a counterbalance. Once I found a threat he conceded.
Game 2 I kept a no-force hand with tutor and meddling mage, and he didn't have the turn 1. He cantripped and passed, and I tutored for cannonist to go with my meddling mage in my opener. Played cannonist, then mage on Abrupt Decay to keep cannonist around. Those two went the distance, and he showed me after the match he had only one chain of vapor to get out of the lock.
After that most of the rounds are a blur, but I know I lost to deathblade and the true mirror, beating legendary miracles, reanimator, pox, and MUD (unfortunately this was one of our group that came from Atlanta). I also never had a match go to 3 games, and both CB mirrors finished with more than 20 minutes on the clock. :)
I wasn't able to find Unexpectedly Absent before the event unfortunately, or the Celestial Purge in the board would have been swapped out. I haven't had a chance to test the new card that much but I heard from other Miracles players there that it was very good.
The 3rd entreat in the board was way better than I've been giving it credit for, and I'm happy to have that be my extra threat now over Elspeth / Batterskull / etc. Mystic Gate was never relevant, Karakas was good, and mountain never caused any issues.
Alpha, we may have seen each other (not as opponents, but sat next to each other, as I sat next to my fair share of Miracle-brothers), as I finished 7-2, good for 14th. Also, regarding the basic mountain, I used to think the same way as you for the tempo decks, but the real trick is to just not fetch the volc until you need it. Granted, I also play the legenfary build, so my Karakases draw a lot of the Wastelands' attention.
My maindeck was the same as Joe's list -1 Mystic Gate, +1 Unexpectedly Absent (I did not cut the land for the spell; I've just preferred to play a slightly greedier version than him and run one fewer land and typically have 1-2 rotating flex spots that deviate from his exact list). Sideboard has more differences from Joe's list, but I think it's MOSTLY the same. It's a bummer that my only two losses were to friends, one of which was on elves, which is supposed to be a 90/10 (at least that's how it feels, to me) matchup in my favor. I guess it makes up for me somehow winning my unwinnable matchup of 12-post; it actually should have been SUPER unwinnable since I chose to leave my Blood Moons at home. The other friend I lost to was a bit more acceptable, as he was playing a Lejay-esque Shardless BUG (4 Lilianas) with True-Name Nemesis. (Side note: he actually won the only grinder with that deck, the night before). Unexpectedly Absent did a lot of work on Liliana, but proved too hard to cast in game three, when he was able to stick her on turn two, and followed up with back to back Wastelands to pretty much lock me out of the game. I jokingly asked if he was ready to make some piles when he had a Lily at 8 and my board was basic island. I'll probably get a full report up on Hipsters of the Coast for my piece for this week, but it won't be published until Thursday.
Hey guys I went 7-1-1 at eternal weekend. I got 9th by a fraction of a percent, sadly. I was on camera twice if ggslive has the videos yet. Moat was MVP, winning 6-8 games by itself. Going forward I may try to find room for an E tutor in the board. Searches for moat, rip, top, CB, even the scullers. Here is the list:
Creatures:4
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Spells:33
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Rest in Peace
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
3 Force of Will
3 Terminus
Lands:23
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:15
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
1 Rest in Peace
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Humility
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
How do we deal with Omni Tell?
apart from counter wars and Counterbalance I mean.
If we can't get a CB online we're in trouble I'm afraid.. may be some Ethersworn Canonist in SB for Storm and OmniTell?
Venser and Clique are both pretty good actually :) Or splash black and play Notion Thief if you are not liking REB'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Poron
against deck like ours they're definitly playing Defense Grid.
I'm not sure Instants are the answear in that matchup.
They play Gitaxian Probe to count our counters (and more counters than us by default), Defense Grid and once Omniscience hits field they can win Instant speed.
an example:
1) Show and Tell
2) Omniscience (we play Vendilion or Venser here)
3) They put the triggered ability of Vendilion/Venser on the stack
4) Cunning Wish (for free) for Firemind's Foresight
5) Search for: Cunning Wish, Trickbind, Anything
6) Cast, for free, Trickbind on Clique/Venser/Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring
Counterbalance (alongside with pure counters) is our only card in that matchup, but since they play Defense Grid.. I'm afraid CB is the only solid answear
Probably did see each other. I was wearing an Atlanta Braves hat and mostly play German / Korean foils if that helps. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy_stardust
I also have Pyroclasms in my board, so I can't afford to just fetch my red source when I need it, I need it to stick around.
Congrats on the finish, sorry you just missed. What's the thought process with playing Scullers over Meddling Mage / Cannonist, and was it really worth splashing and adding another nonbasic?Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
Seriously? I feel like this matchup is a joke. Counterbalance is only ok, but hatebears are excellent, especially cannonist & meddling mage. I've never lost this matchup. If you have E Tutor, you should never leave home without at least a cannonist in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
As I said, so this deck needs Canonist and/or Meddling Mage to deal with it.
If Omni Show gets popular we'll need to accord our SB. It's rather rare to see those 2 cards in Miracle lists actually
I think you are overexaggerating a bit. I do like Canonist, especially coupled with some cheap countermagic and he is fine for SNT and to counter the following ones while clocking them.
The chances for the Omnitellplayer to have SnT Omniscience and Cunning Wish are not small, by no means, but usually you do have some countermagic along Clique/Venser and Cb/Top which should be enough for Game 1 at least. Most lists i see do not play the Trickbind maindeck.
After board you do have 3 Cliques/2 Venser and additional Flusterstorms + Blasts with CB and Pierce already there. It's one of our better matchups i think.
Fair point on the need to cast multiple sorcery speed spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Yeah, based on your description, I'm pretty sure sat next to you at some point in the day, maybe more than once. I was the dude in the white button-down shirt with lip piercings.
I like Canonist a lot, but that's not the key to victory. If you watch Oarsman's stream, there're games where he defeated Omni-tell, even with Grid on the board, I wish I could tell you the date of his recording. Basically, Enter the Infinite and Cunning Wish are enemies number one. Yes, based on my testing and watching his stream, it's possible to win even if they resolve Omniscience or Dream halls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Do you bring in Pyroclasms against RUG? I've tried that a few times and have been mostly disappointed.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I don't know that it's a joke exactly, but I feel like it is a lot easier than Sneak Attack for us. Sneak Attack has more defensive counters with Spell Pierce and now Swan Song. I suppose Omnitell could pack those as well, but they tend to run Pacts instead. Because of this, we can be aggressive casting Counterbalance against Omnitell and can usually expect it to resolve. I wouldn't rely on counter magic because of Defense Grid and their Pacts, but Counterbalance and Canonist are usually enough to get the job done.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I definitely bring them in vs Canadian, and I've been happy doing so. I want to have as much or more removal than they do men so that I can spend most of my time ensuring land drops and just wipe the men when possible. RiP makes it easy to kill goyfs and mongooses with pyroclasm, but I'm usually happy to even trade 1-for-1 with a delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Yeah, I may have overstated it, and keep in mind my impressions will reflect that I play Meddling Mage, which I cannot recommend enough. Still, the matchup is definitely favorable, as with the majority of combo decks.
I watched you on cam. Good good stuff. Man Moat is ridiculous. Watched you vs RUG. People on chat are like, "Why is he keeping in Moat vs RUG? 4 mana gets spell pierced and dazed" Me: "because resolved Moat is GG you idiots"Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
The underground sea is replacing a mystic gate, so it's the same amount of basics. Scullers don't get REBd which is a big plus. Also, against miracle players opponents will often main phase brainstorms and fetch to cast additional cantrips before turn 3 (clique) so we can punish them on turn 2 with a sculler. Since sneak and show is becoming increasingly popular (again) being able to disrupt their hand instead of "guess" with meddling Mage is pretty strong. Siding it in against other decks is pretty strong too attacking their threats in the hand. (Mirror, elves, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Moat was very impressive. What do you guys think of Humility, though (budget reasons). I cut it from my list before trying because I figured the 1/1s would kill me/Jace just the same. It seemed like more of a harassment card than a lock.
Humility makes more sense for Rip-EF combo build. Moat has better synergy with Angel tokens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
I was pretty happy about my performance at BOM last weekend. I had 2 SFM 1 Batterskull in my sideboard and I really liked it. Before the tournament I realized more cards were needed to beat jund/aggro/shardless but also realized that more reactive cards was not ideal. Removal in general, especially narrow removal, can't deal with Liliana of the veil, gaddock teeg or Truename Nemesis. SFM is very neat as most people will remove all their spotremoval postboard and it can reign free. I won several games with it, either with the germ or equipping one of my flash-creatures (or angel!). It's also pretty good versus combo and in the mirror. It's almost as it should be maindeck but it's worse there because of said removal.
I died to an army of 1/1s in an elves matchup at the Legacy Championship because I ran Humility over Moat.. can't really blame the Humility for that one, though.. sometimes two fetches and a top can't find one of your four copies of terminus :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
I do like that Humility shuts down Sneak and Show, unlike sphere/ring where they can still draw a million cards with the trigger on the stack and just set themself up to go off again
Humility and Moat do completely different things and are good against completely different decks/strategies. You cant use one because you don't have the other.
I pretty much agree with this. I think Moat is likely much better against the fair decks. If you are going to compare Humility to something, I think it should be Pithing Needle. I think of them both as being primarily Sneak and Show hate with some upside in various other matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Sorry to hear, although humorously enough I was on the other end of a similar situation last night. For some reason, a Mighty Quinn player decided to leave in Humility against me and ended up losing to a bunch of 1/1's consisting of Clique, Snapcaster, and a few Angels.Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy_stardust
Sometimes? Try most of the time. If you are dying to armies of 1/1s, you need more redundancy in your mass removal somewhere in the 75.Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy_stardust
Pyroclasm guys. 50% of the time it's better than Terminus
Here's my recap of the event, guys.
http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/20...ionships-14th/
And as for 'clasm, I've toyed with the idea before, but I feel like it's a bit of overkill with four terminus, verdict, and explosives already in the 75. Granted none of those deal with Teeg, but I have outs to him in Plow, Venser, double Karakas, and, if they're dumb, clique ambush.
Great article, congrats!Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy_stardust
I prefer a red-heavier build. With Pyroclasm, Blood Moon and REBs
I don't run either EE nor SV
Ok, that makes some sense, I just trust my ability with the mage a lot I guess. What decks are you bringing them in vs where REB is a concern? The mirror and sneak?Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
Yep, Humility is hate for monsters, moat is hate for small men.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect