I think I should probably share my new list tonight. I run Bolt, Slice and Dice and Shard Phoenix with Pyrokinesis in the board and I've shored it up with no problem.
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I think I should probably share my new list tonight. I run Bolt, Slice and Dice and Shard Phoenix with Pyrokinesis in the board and I've shored it up with no problem.
You shouldn't fear Grixis. Blood moon does a number against them and a silver bullet like Sphere of Law can shut them down. Burn is good against their win cons. If you're playing burn then sudden shock is the way to go but costing two mana is effectively time walking yourself. EE is also excellent. It forces them to lean on either delver or YP. Focusing tour burn on their chosen route to victory. However their but draw is better than ours so be prepared to lose to brainstorm.decQuote:
Originally Posted by ORDAL
I think you should hurry up and finish your report as promised!Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Agree on sudden shock. Finally started winning the matchup once I had those.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Here's what my list looks like currently:
Imperial Painter
[4x] Imperial Recruiter
[4x] Painter's Servant
[3x] Simian Spirit Guide
[2x] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
[2x] Magus of the Moon
[1x] Goblin Welder
[1x] Shard Phoenix
[4x] Grindstone
[2x] Lotus Petal
[2x] Sensei's Divining Top
[4x] Blood Moon
[4x] Red Elemental Blast
[4x] Pyroblast
[3x] Lightning Bolt
[2x] Slice and Dice
[5x] Mountain
[4x] City of Traitors
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[2x] Bloodstained Mire
[2x] Great Furnace
[1x] Crystal Vein
//Sideboard
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Tormod's Crypt
[3x] Pyrokinesis
[1x] Slice and Dice
[1x] Viashino Heretic
[1x] Phyrexian Revoker
[1x] Faerie Macabre
I've found the inclusion of Slice and Dice to be incredible. The utility this card provides is second to none in a format saturated with one-toughness creatures. After testing it out multiple times against decks like Grixis, Death and Taxes and Elves - the card has been spectacular. I like how it hits fliers, is essentially instant speed, cannot be countered and evades taxing effects from Thalia and friends. It replaces itself at worst, and at best, can blow out a huge army of creatures - including a mass of Empty tokens. I am currently playing this over Ensnaring Bridge because I feel its application in the existing metagame has a higher prevalence than Bridge. The cards that put Emrakul and such into play are the real culprits, and this variation runs eight (8) Blast effects to maximum capacity. I feel as though Legacy decks right now are winning attrition battles with smaller creatures (Young Pyromancer, Mentor, etc.), as opposed to larger threats that are more easily handled with Blasts or straight combo - hence the reason why they are in here.
Which leads me to Shard Phoenix - a card I've absolutely been loving in this deck. It augments the attrition battles as an evasive tool and wipes clear gummed-up or threatening board states and provides recursion as needed. I think it has merit right now and I've done nothing but good things with it since running it.
I'm testing Crystal Vein as another accelerator in the deck to power out either the combo or a Blood Moon turn one. You don't always have to sacrifice it the turn it comes down, which I do like. I'm trying to avoid running more than two fetches at the moment, due in large part to the damage received from Ancient Tomb. In matches where it's needed, it has been very applicable. The side is currently in flux, but I still like the thrashing it gives to mid-range aggro control decks.
How do you guys feel about Goblin Sharpshooter as a tutor target? Not having a haste enabler like Goblins sucks but when it sticks, it wipes the field and more. Slice and Dice is actually pretty cool tech. Thanks!
I just think Slice and Dice would be better than Sharpshooter in this instance because it doesn't have to worry about waiting a turn to be active, can't be countered, can't be stopped with removal and replaces itself with a card. Sure, you get board control with Sharpshooter if it sticks, but I think the instant-speed blowout capacity of Slice and Dice with its evasion makes it a more appealing option.
And don't forget that Slice and Dice can be hard cast to completely wipe the board if larger creatures are in play.
BLOOD MOON!!
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I went outside with my wife and looked at it - pretty cool stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Actually, I do like Slice and Dice. I'm currently playing with one Pyrokinesis in the board for creature MUs. I could potentially see swapping it out for slice and dice due to the card disadvantage of pyrokinesis. However, I have taken out more than on deathrite shaman and stoneforge mystic with it as well. Gotta think about that one. I don't love shard phoenix. Tried playing with it once and it just seemed sooooo sloooowww against decks where you would want it (young pyro, mentor, elves, etc.). EE main just seems way better, although I'm playing more than one color as well.
Played a small tournament at my local gamestore (40 players) yesterday. It was my first time to test the black splash. In ended up not casting any of the black cards, BUT the basic plain that is added as a 20th land when compared to standard strawberry shortcake lists felt awesome! Over the last dozen tournaments or so I found myself in so many situations where I felt uncomfortable fetching for a Plateau due to wasteland but didn't like the thought of not being able to cast a top decked Enlightened Tutor as well.
The tournament itself was kind of meh - I ended up 9th, winning against Pox, Loam, Manaless Dredge, Goblins and losing against MUD and Instant Reanimator (strange MUs considering the tons of Miracles, Grixis, Show&Tell and Storm players that my meta usually consists of)...
Reflecting the event:
best thing: the basic plain
worst thing: cutting the Containment Priest from the board
@Slice and Dice: awesome idea! I'm definitely going to test it!
So Dig Through Time got the ban. Anyone gonna keep splashing black for Slaughter Games/Engineered Plague? I don't think the black is doing as much without the threat of a terrifying OmniTell...
Dig is gone, but OmniTell was a thing before it, should stay a thing now.Quote:
Originally Posted by tired_papasmurf
Omni-tell was a thing but not a big thing. I doubt it will be relevant enough to keep playing the black splash but that could prove incorrect. Most people will likely return to sneak though which was always much easier to beat
I think old omni I was way more fair. The dig omni was just oppressive and annoying. (Ps my Uba mask in my SB just got some more value)
Yeah, that's a good question. I guess it will depend on how the new meta shakes out. I don't think the monk/elemental decks will go away so e.plague is still good. I have become accustomed to bringing slaughter pact in against storm and Miracles decks but not as big a deal against those MUs. Slaughter Pact would probably still be good against sneak and show but revoker probably needs to get back into the 75 somewhere. The other question now is whether canonist is still necessary in the main. Everything changes....Quote:
Originally Posted by tired_papasmurf
Very good news, althought I'm a bit in doubt about how to build now.. may just wait a little before doing big changes.
But scrying ahead, Canonist may remain in the main as Storm should rise a bit, but be moved to SB if not. Nevertheless it should be in the 75.
As for the black.. I've become a big fan of E.Plague and Nihil Spellbomb instead of T.Crypt. It will be a bit sour to remove them, but as we don't really need Slaughter Games that much anymore, black should probably be dropped completely for consistency (thought the changes to manabase are slim).
I'm very excited about the inclusion of Slice and Dice, thought. It seems perfect for the very reason it can't be countered. It's a little bit different approach as one go down with Welders and remove Bridge entirely, so I'm curious to see which version will deal with creatures most consistentely. Bridge can be dealt with, but also tutored, whereas Slice is the opposite.
i'm still exicted about Pia and Kiran . I want to play one of them in the main as a tutorable ( recruiter) flex slot for the mid game / the more grindy matches. with 3 welder and one LED in main you can enable the combo pretty solid while being low on mana.
Slice and Dice looks very nice in this meta but to be fair it's just a meta card, so i might play them in the sideboard over one of the traditional burn removal.
I was curious if anyone ever thought of having a token made for when you name a color with painter? Had the thought one day and might commission an artist to do something. (Really it's cause I'm sad this deck doesn't use tokens, PKN not included).
You can use glass beads and it would be great if there was a dye with all the mana colors on it
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Or use pieces from the game of Life or something like that. Better yet you could use crayons to stick with the "painter" theme.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uroborian
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I just went to Hobby Lobby and bought a wooden cube and painted each side a different color.
Since I only ever name red, black, or blue, I use the infection vials from the game Pandemic. If you ever play the u/r version it doesn't work as well though because sometimes you name green.
So, back to the question about the black splash... I think I may cut the slaughter games, as it was really only for Omnitell. It was okay against miracles and storm but there are definitely better cards for those MUs. However, I've actually really liked e.plague and kolaghans command so will probably keep a little black splash. Chains of Meph has also actually been really good in some MUs so want to keep trying that for a little while. If sneak and show gets really popular again, I may consider going back to slaughter games. I have a feeling we are going to see more RUG and u/r delver and more discard heavy strategies such as jund. I might try leylines back in the SB for a while.
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I'm going to the PiQ in Indy Sunday should I hedge with Leylines in the board? Makes sense but I don't know how quickly DTT ban will shift meta.
I think the biggest shift will be that Omnitell players have had their deck neutered and would switch back to sneak and show because they have all the cards anyhoo.
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So the question would then be is slaughter games any good against sneak and show?
Maybe one copy?
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I'd say no. Sneak also run Griselbrand alongside Emrakul, and thus we can't really shut them out with one naming as we could against Omni. It's the same situation for Show and Tell as they can just slam Sneak Attack afterwards and win from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
You could get lucky and snag their exact wincon, but sadly it's twofold and risky. Good thing is that the Sneak version doesn't run Cunning Wish package, and will therefore have harder time dealing with Ensnaring Bridge.
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Completely agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morcrux
The best cards against Sneak and Show are Ensnaring Bridge and Phyrexian Revoker.
Depending on how the meta evolves it might be possible to justify going back to Mono-Red.
I like the Slice and Dice tech. Pretty cool card that I forgot existed.
Depending on how the banning affects Grixis - if it does at all - I'm going to shift the Slice and Dice back over to Ensnaring Bridge. I think the bannings give a huge boost to Bridge, and it's definitely a major player in the format that must be respected.
Agreed. Early results show Sneak and Show making a large comeback. These are early results so things might change, but Bridge might gain a lot of value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
We had a pretty good matchup and strategy against Sneak and Show about 1.5-2 years ago, has anything changed since then to either improve that matchup or make it worse?
Hi, I'm trying to make something out of my budget RW Painter list. This means I run Imperial Painter without Imperial Recruiter. Yes, you heard well.
Indeed, I'm tying to only tutoring with Enlightened tutor which have a lot of benefits (1 mana, instant speed, can search for Painter, Grind, BM, Ensnaring bridge, Great furnace, Sensei top....), but some drawbacks too (card disavantage, hard to cast under BM, can't search for Jaya of Magus + eventual SB creatures).
I'm quite satisfied with the current list, but i still have some troubles against a lot of matchups (Miracles, Burn, Death and taxes, Sylvan Plug for the hardest ones)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage -> two of this because I have no tutor for, and she rocks
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Gamble -> I like this, especially with welder out, but it's often a bad draw...
3 Swords to Plowshares -> I've never seen RW lists running these, but I found'em awesome to tempo the combo
1 Simian Spirit Guide -> I've removed 2 simians already, can be awesome in starting hand, but superbad draw
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Koth of the Hammer -> My best
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity -> Quite effective indeed since i can run them vs combo or discard matchups, matchups where I put out my blood moons
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist -> awesome, wondering if 1 MD can be good
SB: 2 Sudden Shock -> vs Infect, mentor miracles, aggro decks
SB: 1 Assemble the Legion -> Second win-con vs miracles & prison decks
SB: 2 Pyroclasm -> vs D&T and tribal decks
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Any ideas/advices to enhance this stuff ? What do you think of recruiterless Painter deck ?
+ subsidiary question : How do you play the miracles/prison matchup when you are on the draw ? Do you side out the grindstones and try to win with creatures/planeswalkers ?
Haven't painted in a long ass time. Never a better time to jump back in. Minimal amounts of testing so far but here is where I'm at:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
2 wooded foothills
3 bloodstained mire
4 Mountain
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 ensnaring bridge
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 enlightened tutor
The board
4 Firebolt
1 enlightened tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rest in Peace
1 trinisphere
1 thorn of amethyst
1 engineered explosives
1 Ethersworn canonist
1 Duergar hedge-mage
3 open slots
The slots have been some combination of pyroclasm, pyrokinesis, koth, parents, sphere of law, and 8th red blast. So yeah not a lot of changes overall but I really don't think they are necessary. The banning of dig gives us all the tools we need again to plow through tournaments. I've been slanting towards 2 pyrokinesis and the 8th blast recently, as well as 2nd bridge main and siding the EE. I've been trying to see how well this can perform without any alternate wins in the board (koth/parents) because the reason to bring them in (miracles) is now running mentors which quickly overpower koth. What do people think?
Why not shave the third top for the third bridge? You increase your answer density as desired and you don't cut any business for it. I always liked three bridges main because I needed to play them, and think the format will shift to a combat zone oriented affair executed by diverse strategies, with the ban of dtt.
That said I'm really liking Hollywood's list and we'll run it in a couple weeks.
I think you could easily get away with a split in the board with Pyrokinesis and Slice and Dice, which I'm running now. I like Pyrokinesis's ability to hit toughness>2 creatures and interaction with Painter on "red." That said, Slice and Dice has been exceptional in testing. As far as the main goes, Ensnaring Bridge is just too good right now to pass up - hence the shift of SnD to the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I noticed that I flooded an insane amount, even at 19 land. Plus the welder advantage was severely lacking at that point. I've been happy back at three and shaving in fast matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
@ Nuouille: my advice without recruiters would be to not even bother with Jaya and play 4 welders and 2-3 gamble and concentrate more on artifacts. I would include at least two bridges and a tormods crypt main. Maybe even include a wurmcoil engine to gamble, discard and recur with welder.
@Kap'n: good to see you back!!! I haven't seen any posts, streams or anything for quite some time. Thought you gave up on us.
I definitely agree on 2 bridges in the main again. RUG delver is everywhere again now. BUG delver is also very popular so RiP is definitely worthwhile for Goyf and deathrite. As for the three open slots, I definitely think the fourth REB is in for the Miracles MU. I'm currently still splashing black slightly for 1 kolaghans command in the main and e.plague and Chains in the SB. Plague is so good against all the token decks and elves. MUD is really gaining in popularity as well so just consider SB against that. What do you think about slice and dice? I think if I weren't playing plague I would play those over pyrokinesis as it is card advantage vs disadvantage. As is I still play one pyrokinesis which did kill a Goyf for me last night. I never really got a chance to play with parents so can't even comment on it. The few games I did play it it seemed good. But if we are looking for an alt win con against Miracles we could do better.
Anyway, nice to see you back in action. Hope this means you will start streaming again as well. Always enjoyed playing along at home.
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By the numbers: lists with 2 bridges main are significantly more likely to put up results. I haven't yet felt the need to go to 3 as jandax suggests.
For the board I am on 2 koth and one pyrokinesis. Kinesis is so good I want to cut a firebolt for another - death and taxes and elves roll over to this card.
I have not tested slice and dice yet - I'll get back to you.
Good to see some familiar faces again!
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Thanks man, intersting point of view. Then, in addition to the gambles, I might play some faithless looting as well, to choose my discard. I'll test this :) (but these choices makes the deck closer to bomberman, and the LED aren't in my budget atm...)Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Although I have become a fan of firebolt over the years I think sudden shock is where we want to be right now.
My primary reason is mentor. Yes, we bridge and while firebolt does "kill it" I think it's simply not good enough. Especially for what will likely be the most common deck you will face.
In addition, the added benefit against cards like delver, pyromancer, or there shinanigas where someone reasonably expects to interact with you. With a moon out your shardless opponents only out might be to protect their DRS. To bad.
It's also hilarious against infect.
Moving forward I will be playing 3 sudden shock and 1 pyrokinesis in the side.
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