This seems like awful advice. Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt still answer the bug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
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This seems like awful advice. Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt still answer the bug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
Yeah, I don't like them vs Delver in general either. However, Grixis delver is boarding out their bolts against me (too much to board in I guess), so when I have them I board them there. But even then, their other angles of attack (mainly cabal therapy) weaken its use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
It's a card that shines versus decks that only interact on the stack (which are basicly nonexistent by now, everyone has multiple angles). It's also a great card versus Griselbrand since it defeats their future stack interaction that we usually can't beat. Furthermore it's good against SDT, which can hide counters on top. Miracles can often answer the card though (inter alia by using any StP they kept, otherwise a dead card), and it doesn't do much with permanent hate in the mixture. If you want to fight SDT specifcally I'd prefer the harder-to-answer Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle. It was also very good when people ran white leylines in the board of decks with counters (e.g. the older omniclash lists).
I've gone from 2 swarms to 0 lately, and I'm not missing them that much. I'd bring them back if I start seeing more SnT/Griselbrand/Leyline+Counters (I do actually like them versus omnitell).
perhaps they will have lightning bolt in their 60 but they need to have it at the right time. Abrupt decay seems ludicrous unless they have no sb whatsoever vs us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
IF you resolve it and IF it connects they have no further interaction with the exception of a deathrite activation. I think that's worth the investment of 2 slots. Perhaps you misunderstood my definition of permanent hate. They have no canonist/thalia/meddling mage that interacts with our game plan, only counters and possibly discard. For me having 2 bugs to turn those interactions off is worth it provided delver is an important part of the meta (which it was in Lille for example).
For now I would probably cut them as well since I see more important things to be answered.
Sure, but can't the same be said for any source of relevant interaction in any given matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
Additionally, most delver decks do play permanent based hate as it pertains to this matchup. A quick search of legacy events from this past weekend via SCG yields:
Null Rod
Grafdigger's Cage
Nihil Spellomb
Couple this with the fact that most of these lists play surgical extraction, vendilion clique, deathrite shaman, and hand disruption as meaningful ways to interact before the bug triggers, Xantid isn't exactly suited to take over the game on its own anymore. Also, fetching a non-basic green source against an archetype that typically plays 4 wasteland doesn't exactly seem like a winning proposition either. These are just reasons I typically don't board in Xantid Swarm against delver.
If you read my posts properly I did not advocate xantid as being a powerhouse that's a must include in our deck. I merely stated that in the delver match-up it is at it's best as they are almost solely dependant on countermagic for interaction. Saying the surgical is a meaningful way to interact before the bug triggers seems a rather odd statement as well. It's much more debilitating mid-combo so xantid does offer protection vs extraction. Same for clique. They must play it before the trigger or can't play it anymore. That's a big difference with them just waiting for the right moment to cast it and pick a card from your hand instead of just having to pick from a full grip. And for both your opponent needs to be lucky to hit something relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Degausser
Gy hatred does not bother me as much as say canonist/meddling mage. Gy hatred can be played around. Canonist for example must be answered before you combo. That's a big difference.
What I wanted to make clear as well in my reply to ContractKiller is that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' decklist/sideboard. You make choices on what limited information is available and go from there. There is something to be said for having Xantid Swarm in your sideboard under certain circumstances. I tried to explain when they are useful and when they are not.
And finally Xantid Swarm has always been in the deck to fight blue decks who are very likely to have wasteland. It has always been worth it even when you take into account that the land gets wasted. If you turn off even one daze with the xantid swarm you got your investment back (and possibly an extra card in the gy).
I respectfully disagree completely with the first bolded part. Xantid Swarm is, in my humble opinion, clearly best against blue decks with no removal, this usually works out to be island-centric combo decks (i.e. show and tell for the most part). Regarding the second bolded part, I'm not going to pretend I know the reasons why the first storm players put in Xantid Swarm - which I'm guessing is what you're alluding to - but I am again completely in disagreeance with you here insofar as "blue decks who are very likely to have wasteland" means delver decks primarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
Allow me to elaborate. Against show and tell decks they will rarely have an answer to a resolved bee and their interaction is almost always exclusively in the form of counter magic. We are faster and just-as-to-more consistent as/than them which means the bee can make this extremely lopsided.
Now I'm not saying that the bee is never good against something like Delver, but if you ever end up trading it for a Lightning Bolt it is boardering on disastrous for you. You'd prefer not to trade one-for-one with a delver deck and CERTAINLY not for an otherwise okay-to-weak card for them in Lightning Bolt. I agree that it CAN be an absolute beating for them. If they don't have removal and was counting on sitting back behind a delver with a fist full of Flusterstorms and Spell Pierces. But any red delver deck should be keeping in some number of bolts so you can't be sure. Against BG-Delver decks you can argue against them having any Abrupt Decays after board but fact is, a non-trivial amount of them do have a couple. But even more importantly, against any deck (delver or otherwise) running discard along side counterspells your Xantid Swarm risks being irrelevant. If you resolve a bee and then get thoughseized-into-hymned then its feel bad.
Show and tell slower then we are? Perhaps by half a turn and that's not counting disruption. And which of those decks is the most consistent? I can't say. Both run a healthy amount of cantrips and both have strengths and weaknesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
And gettting thoughtseized into hymn is always bad irrelevant of having a swarm or not. Most delver decks do not however play hymn because it strains their already weak manabase.
Your statement about lightning bolt is true in the sense they have answered a potentially disastrous card for them but I can't see it being disastrous to us. In the end we traded 1 for 1. They can not have deathrite shaman/bolt/wasteland/thoughtseize/hymn/colored land every time (and being able to cast it in the space of 3 turns). And if they do, well gj to them. I am fully aware that xantid swarm can be answered but that does not necessarily make it a bad card in the match-up. If vs delver I board I side it in in the place of discard because I feel it hits more (all their counters as opposed to just one). Also the swarm can not be spell pierced/flusterstormed (as opposed to discard) and it does not tie up mana in my combo turn. I can accept that you find those advantages not enough to play the card but at least acknowledge that playing Xantid is a viable choice besides whatever your preferred strategy is.
Completely unrelated to the current discussion of whether or not Xantid Swarm is good bad or otherwise, but this article is really good:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...mboarding.html
I'm surprised this isn't posted in the primer at the beginning. There's a few of Carsten's articles listed in the primer, but this one in particular really helps with sideboarding.
Xantids Swarm has a lot of merrits atm which start that the typical no-removal-blue-decks like S&T don't drop Griselbrand/Emrakul and give you a turn to attack with Xantid to combo off safely, but kill you immediately with Omnisciemce in play.
You are also missing the forest for the trees by pointing at occasional Lightning Bolts only if you opt to board Xantids against URx Delver variants. You have to fetch a Tropical Island first which adds nothing for your combo turn and makes targeting Wastelands an easy task to cut you off mana/colors.
A) yes I think we are faster than Omnitell. I haven't tested it properly but that seems to be the consensus when talking to experienced Omni pilots. That ANT goldfishes a half-to-a-full turn faster than Omni. And you mention their disruption, well what about our disruption?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
I will say, that when Sneak and Show is the show and tell deck of choice that deck is probably as fast as ANT, but then Swarm is also better there because it can come in off Show and Tell we ofte get to untap and attack for the win.
B) And the reason I think it's a disaster for us to play a Xantid Swarm and have it bolted is because our deck needs to contain a balance of disruption, mana, cantrips and business. If you want to side in extra disruption, IE. Xantid Swarm, then either it's because you think it's better than your main deck disruption, discard, and thus you replace 1-3 discard spells with 1-3 Xantid Swarm. Or else you decide that you don't need as much business, mana or cantrips. This latter move, making your deck disruption heavy at the cost of either business, cantrip or mana shouldn't be done a lot of the time. There are matchups where it can be adviseable to cut some business or a few cantrips maybe, but we are getting into dangerous territory fast. And those matchups aren't delver imo as ANT is built with those kinds of decks in mind. So you are looking at cutting a discard spell for a Xantid Swarm. So, if your Xantid Swarm gets lightning bolted, you have essentially used a discard spell to remove a lightning bolt = disaster (okay that is obviously a hyperbolic way of putting it, but can we agree that casting duress to remove a lightning bolt from your delver opponent is not usually where you want to be?).
Allow me to finish by saying that I in no way think it is strictly wrong to ever board in swarm against something like Delver. First of all some Delver pilots just autopilot sideboard out their removal. If you think that's going to be the case then by all means punish them. Even if that's not the case I wouldn't say that I couldn't ever see myself boarding swarms vs Delver, but merely that it is a high risk / high reward kind of play because of the abovementioned detriment if it catches a lightning bolt. Whereas vs. show and tell combo where there is practically no risk or downside to bringing it in.
That is also a good point.Quote:
You are also missing the forest for the trees by pointing at occasional Lightning Bolts only if you opt to board Xantids against URx Delver variants. You have to fetch a Tropical Island first which adds nothing for your combo turn and makes targeting Wastelands an easy task to cut you off mana/colors.
Thanks, I haven't scoured the web for articles since I first wrote up the other. Further additions are welcome!Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
I'm not sure where you think I stated you as advocating Xantid as a powerhouse must include. I was simply disagreeing with your statement that swarm is good against delver decks. Reading properly is apparently a new shortcoming of mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
My points of contention with your quoted post:
1.)Surgical is a fine way to interact before swarm triggers given that most delver decks are running discard to hit relevant targets. I'm not arguing that it loses flexibility with swarm in play.
2.) Playing clique in the draw step is more than a defensible play regardless of having xantid in play or not. Most storm pilots are capable of casting tutors and holding priority to cast rituals to mitigate the effectiveness of clique in main phases.
3.) As far as hate-permanents are concerned, you're missing the point. I never argued that thallia, canonist, and meddling mage are less problematic that null rod, spellbomb, or cage. I was disputing your statement that delver doesn't play hate-permanents, which is definitely a fallacy.
4.) I was going to comment again on fetching non-basic green sources against wasteland decks, but Lemnear already did a good job at covering that point.
Trading a card for Daze seems like terrible value for ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
Trading cards in general is terrible for storm unless we loose the game otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
The only trades we want are our discard spells,ritual or cantrips with any hard counter spells.
This is pretty fundamental when playing this deck.
although this is not true, most juts follow the herd and wouldn't try that just because "it's not supposed to be used this way" which mindset actually made it playable in certain MUs especially Canadian Threshold and Dark threshold (confidant based, no discard), currently it's no good against tempo (not because of Bolt or Waste but permanent/discard hate)... for me Xantid swarm is not worth playing for about a year, and clearly unplayable in timeframe ~after TC banQuote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
you always want to trade resources if it's favorable enough for you, Daze and Wasteland are good examples of opportunities that can sometimes punish your opponent in early game if you have the right information/opponent and play accordinglyQuote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
RIP DTT muahahahahaha
What kind of news is this for ANT? I just started playing this deck and not sure if DTT was better than the uptick in discard / Deathrite we'll likely see. Thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
Fine, less Omnitell paranoia in Miracles, less Gy hate, i kind of regret losing Dtt Omnitell - I havent lost a match, well, ever, in a tournament... More S+T, Bug and Miracles unfortunatte yet acceptable, I wonder where does this place Grixis now...Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
I think there will actually be more GY hate now that people aren't trying to fuel their own DTTs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
That means->
More miracles
More elves
More hymn to tourach
More sneak atack ->This means less canonist and more containment. Wich is a bad card against us and good againat reanimator wich is a bad deck for us.
No more omni
No more md hate
Xantid gets better
Less 1 off null rod finding -> top gets better
Lets see
gy hate for what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandrosaurus
Rug, reanimator, bgx shells, lands
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
haven't caught myself up on this topic in quite some time, was hoping that maybe I'd find some decent discussion and progress
nah just siding in xantids vs lightning bolts and wondering if shocks are a fine mana base....
never change, source <3
At least people stopped advocating LDV *shudder*
Hi guys, now that DTT is gone for good, there will be a sensible increase of BUG based deck on the field, so I would like to ask, how do you guys generally approach the game? And what's your sideboard plan?
I know that is a tricky question, most of the times it depends on the kind of bug that we are facing, shardless, tourachless, with stifle ecc,
Swarm and Top are valuable against BUG, I'd expect at least 1 Top main to be more common again.
Usually how many decay do you plan to board in? and how do you interact with Deathrite Shaman? do you consider them a threat that has to be removed or do you always try to bypass them when it's possible?
People, don't board Swarm vs. discard.
Flusterstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Chuck
This should be quoted in the primer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
Tops are good, I think Empty is good vs BUG Delver. Ad Nauseam is a really strong card versus shardless though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Chuck
If you're expecting a ton of Hymns you could try Divert also, it never really amazed me but I've ran it before.
What do you guys think about DoN vs Massacre in the new meta? I assume there will be more blade and UWR Delver (and even 4c Shardless with hatebears) and you don't need to run 3-4, but DoN is stronger than it used to be versus DnT because of Vryn.
I would probably start with a sideboard like:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sensei's Divining Top (1 main)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Carpet of Flowers (2nd if a ton of RUG, probably not needed)
2 Xantid Swarm (3 if Sneak/Rean become really popular)
1 Chain of Vapor (Question is if we need a 2nd)
2 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens (EtW main fits better with DP's, but I think AdN main might be stronger in the meta and fits in better with playing 2 green duals)
I sort of want to squeeze in a Hurkyl's Recall (replacing the SB top I guess?) since there is quite a lot of hatedecks such as Lands, 4c Loam and MUD right now, but those numbers might dwindle a bit.
Lately I have been playing echoing truth instead of chain of vapor.
Ita quite good vs chalice decks because you can bounce theyr chalices and also a tegg or canonist if they have it.
Also im right now with this problems:
Before dig ban I played 2 preordains, 2 tendrills, nauseam and no tops.
Now Im not sure if I want a top md and for what to replace it.
Now my sb is:
4 decay
3 xantid
2 echoing
2 dread of night
2 flusterstorm
2 carpets
I hope chalice decks to die but I have other 5 cards I would like to fit in my sb:
1 grip
2 hurkil
1 top
3rs dread.
Im also thinkin on whats better now. Obviusly dread is better because vrym pegasus but it still dosnt kill revoker, ot slows them down and we can kill canonist / revoker with decay or so.
Also masaacre makes your ad nauseam worser but its better against blade, shardless (with mages), patriot and so.
Im in real strugle what to play in this 2 spots...
I've actually been using Disfigure, with the added benefit of killing those filthy shamans.
Disfigure is ok but dosnt get rid of mother of runes in any way.
Also just kills 1 guy. Its ok vs deathrite but I board decay for that kind of decks. Just because null rod and gravedigger cage is also a thing. Even if I dont like too much to fetch for green.
Perhaps now that bug based deck and miracles will be more present on the field, pithing needle could be a valid option in our sideboard? i have to admit that i don't like it much, but, if it does the job..
someone has some feedback about needles? feelings?
not sure about my SB atm but I used to like 3x PN quite a lot a year ago, great vs S+T and Miracles, decent vs. DeathriteQuote:
Originally Posted by Le Chuck
I'm fairly new to playing storm. In my local LGS there are 2 players that play discard decks, monoblack with hymns, and BG with cabal therapy and veteran explorer. My question is what can i sideboard to improve these match-ups which have been going terribly for me?
I have the 2 flusterstorm in my SB, I was thinking 2 additional spell pierce and maybe 2 misdirection.
Main deck is fairly stock,
SB:
3 abrupt decay
2 pithing needle
2 flusterstorm
2 carpet of flowers
2 xantid swarm
2 surgical extraction
1 massacre
1 chain of vapor
Top is good for discard decks, a second PiF as well. However you dont want to over SB here, you should combo them out quickly versus their interaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunlith42
Does ANT just concede to reanimator? Is the deck not present enough to consider?
Hello! I've been following the thread for a little while, but this'll be my first post here. I'm considering running ANT, but I've got a few questions and notes from my testing. Note that I have NOT played this deck yet (Sunday will be its trial by fire), but I have been goldfishing and testing to try to get an understanding of the deck's workings. So if I ask any stupid questions, by all means point out what I've missed. Here's the list I'm running right now:
Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
1x Swamp
Engine and tutors:
4x Infernal Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Dark Petition
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
Cantrips:
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Preordain
Discard:
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress
Accelerants:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
Sideboard is under construction, but here's what I've been kicking around to date:
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Carpet of Flowers
2x Xantid Swarm or Surgical Extraction
1x Massacre
1x Pyroclasm or Drown in Sorrow
1x Dark Petition
1x Tropical Island
1x Krosan Grip
1x Duress
Here's what I've discovered so far:
-Having fewer than thirteen cantrips or more than seven pieces of discard in the main makes it very hard to combo without waiting around for several turns or mulliganing more than is comfortable. I keep finding that I'm a ritual away from the combo, but I run out of cantrips and keep drawing extra Duresses. (N.B.: I'd consider Sensei's Divining Top to be a cantrip for the purpose of this discussion.) It seems like a natural assumption that we'll be playing slightly slower games when the Preordains come out, but I'm wondering whether people have found siding them out to be counterproductive.
-Dark Petition absolutely should replace Grim Tutor one hundred percent of the time. Grim goes really poorly with Ad Nauseam, it's often mana-intensive enough to set us back a turn, and for those of us who are concerned (I'm trying to move some cards to buy the Duals for this deck) it's about a hundred times more monetarily expensive. Sure, the initial life-loss of drawing Petition is higher than it is with Grim, but if you expect to cast the tutor you've drawn, Grim both costs one extra life in total and one additional mana. Spell mastery is extremely easy to achieve in this deck, but one question I've been turning in my mind is whether we'd want to side out Petition against opponents who run graveyard hate. It doesn't have problems with Grafdigger's Cage and its ilk, but without spell mastery Petition becomes the worst card in the deck. I'd not recommend running two Petitions in the main with Ad Nauseam, but I'm keeping a second copy in the sideboard pending further discussion.
-I'm keeping a singleton Ad Nauseam in my mainboard. I keep encountering situations in which it'd be the best tutor target because I haven't got a critical mass of rituals in the yard for Past in Flames to get me where I need to be (don't get me wrong; I know there are matchups in which AdN absolutely must go). Empty the Warrens can do the job sometimes, but I've had enough experience in Legacy and Modern to know that a barrel'o'goblins isn't nearly as effective as draining 20 life. Especially when there's a Batterskull lurking.
Here are my questions:
-Has anyone else run into problems when they've cut Ad Nauseam from the maindeck? It seems like some of the newer posts advocate running double-Dark Petition instead, but I keep finding that it's tough to cast Petition and leave enough mana open to continue the combo pretty often. If there's a line of play that I'm missing because I'm new to the deck, I'd love to hear it.
-Do targeted removal cards like Disfigure work well for people who've been using them? I'm worried about decks like Maverick that can blank spot removal or decks that just barf out a ton of elves/gobbos/Thaliaddocks quickly. What's the current thinking on Dread of Night?
-Getting to Threshold for my Cabal Rituals is often a very close shave. If Deathrite Shamans are on the field, and they often are in my meta, is it a viable strategy to ride them out for a turn to dump more fetches/cantrips? Delver of Secrets appears to be the strongest attacker in the format, and I've been encountering the two in concert pretty regularly.
-Has anyone considered sideboarding Mindbreak Trap? What about Daze? I've been playing and posting about All Spells for a while now, and though I know it's by no means a top-tier deck, I've been able to beat significantly stronger decks (Maverick, Elves) with it pretty regularly simply because they don't have any answers to fast combo in the main or the sideboard. Belcher, TES, and the aforementioned all seem capable of powering through one or two discard effects without too much trouble. Aside from a couple of copies of Surgical Extraction, which we aren't likely to draw in an opener game 2 or game 3, we don't seem to have a lot of answers for lightspeed combos.
Any feedback would be welcome, and I hope I'm not retreading old ground too much (this is a LONG thread).
Pretty much. The matchup is not great, but Xantid Swarm does work. You can also sometimes kill them if you naturally draw Tendrils and they get a little too greedy with Griselbrand. That being said, nobody plays Reanimator. I think I faced it about twice in the last two years.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW