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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AggroSteve
MOSTLY STANDARD LIST
3 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port (sucks i know, but i can't seem to get my hands on a 4th)
3 karakas (4th is used in my Rock deck, but 3 is still fine IMO)
10 Plains
[23 Lands]
4 mom
4 talia
4 SFM
4 revoker
4 flickerwisp
3 avanger
2 mangara of corondor
2 BRIMAZ / MIRRAN CRUSADER
[27 Creatures]
4 vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 batterskull
1 umezawas jitte
1 sword of fire/ice
[11 Spells]
thanks in advance for all your thoughts
Your list comes in at 61 cards which is almost certainly 1 too many cards in an archetype like this with zero card selection/filtering. I think 1 of the Creatures has to be dropped. I think probably a Flickerwisp or Brimaz/Crusader is the most likely candidate. I've been a gigantic advocate of four Flickerwisp being near locked, due to them being such good top decks and the Exile for a turn being able to turn the tide on unfavorable board states. I'm kicking around a similar list (-1 Canopy, -2 Mangara; +1 Port, +2 Aven), but haven't gotten to actually test [cards]Brimaz, King of Oreskos[cards] yet (waiting on my preorder).
As far as the debate of which is better Mirran Crusader or Brimaz? I think Crusader is at it's best value against BUG decks. They generally are pretty light on removal - just Decays and Liliana. In my experience we can usually overload them, but Crusader can be an easy button for sure. I suppose it's also worth noting that Mirran Crusader is a phenominal equipment carrier against Elves, since it can't be Symbiote fogged. Versus a broader selection of decks I think Brimaz presents more power. I'm thinking especially decks with sweepers - Miracles, UW Supreme Blade, etc.
One thing worth noting on our differences is that in a build with Avens one has 10-11 Fliers (3 Serra Avenger, 2 Avens, 3-4 Wisp); in this configuration I'm a bit more comfortable dropping a Wisp for the 2nd Brimaz, when you're dropping from 7 Fliers to 6 it hurts a bit more for racing TNNs.
I think it will take some testing to see what configuration is going to give the best game against a TNN saturated format, while still providing us the tools we need to address Elves
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I'm new to DNT. What do you guys think of Jubilation Angel? It seems like a good late game bomb that works well with Brimaz tokens and ends the game more quickly. I'm not entirely sure what its ability applies to.
- Natural Order
- Fetches
- Grislebrand
- ???
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tru3z3rox
I'm new to DNT. What do you guys think of Jubilation Angel? It seems like a good late game bomb that works well with Brimaz tokens and ends the game more quickly. I'm not entirely sure what its ability applies to.
- Natural Order
- Fetches
- Grislebrand
- ???
It'll always land too late/ die easily. Abilities would be great on a cheaper creature
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
It'll always land too late/ die easily. Abilities would be great on a cheaper creature
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
But at that point don't we already have mom and maybe hasn't their removal already been used on other threatening creatures? What else is that ability good against?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tru3z3rox
But at that point don't we already have mom and maybe hasn't their removal already been used on other threatening creatures? What else is that ability good against?
Dude, it's off curve and all the sweepers we care about hit 2-3 turns earlier. Against Jund, where it would be conceivably good, it is still victim to bolt. At least Wilt-leaf liege isn't and makes them think twice about that hymn/Lilly +1.
Stifling fetches: mindcensor does it sooner, and hits SFM, GSZ and Infernal Tutor as well.
Again, if it were a 3 drop or a 4/4, I'd consider it.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
from Cairo
Your list comes in at 61 cards which is almost certainly 1 too many cards in an archetype like this with zero card selection/filtering.
i have been playing every deck i ever built with 61 cards ( and will never change that :P). the difference between 61 cards and 60 cards is that small it does not even matter at all IMO. In math: the probabilities to draw specific cards in your opener and later in the game i think change about a half percent, or something like that.
so in this case i would think that in a deck without filtering i would think it is actually counterproductive cutting anything you want to see more times in a game (hence a 4-off would be best)
i would not want to cut anything from my creatures because "probabilities would get worse for that creature to be drawn during a game by over 25% compared to about a half percent when i am using 61 cards
all in all, i think its perfectly fine running either 60 cards or 61 cards (62 is allready a bit to high IMO)
btw. i tried 60 cards as well..... felt not comfortable from the beginning with it,... and somehow i felt like that with 60 cards and 23 lands i got flooded way to often, but with 22 lands i got screwed to often (hence i got back to 61 plus the 3 horizon canopys.... i love them)
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I don't know if the idea has been brought before....
But.
With TNN....
and other problematic creatures
What about Runed Halo ?
Am I weeks too late?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kayradis
I don't know if the idea has been brought before....
But.
With TNN....
and other problematic creatures
What about
Runed Halo ?
Am I weeks too late?
It's been discussed. Not good enough.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Okay.
And here I was all excited.
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Of the people who have triee Mufasa and SoL, how have they been?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Both very lukewarm. Mufasa is really high impact vs spot removal and combo, but lacks disruption. SoL dies to everything but has a nice effect. Either way, we need more testing
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I've always loved [cards]Wing Shards[cards] and have put a couple of those in my sideboard. They are great against TNN's and also against Elves.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Fry, the reason why Wing Shards is mediocre against Elves is the same reason all of our hate is. They have a lot of ways of accomplishing the same thing, and, in the card pool available to us, I just don't know of any way to disable all of those methods. Wing Shards can effectively end the giant buildup turn followed by attack that Elves has always been able to pull off. But if they Natural Order into Craterhoof or go Cradle into Cradle, they get enough mana to Zenith for him without the storm counters. We have hate for everything Elves does. But it is spread among lots of different cards that you have to get lucky no matter what. So ask yourself - is it better than Canonist? Aven Mindcensor? Cursed Totem? Grafdigger's Cage? There is a lot of hate coming in for this matchup. Which will you cut in favor of Wing Shards? I think they are all stronger than Shards.
BUT
I use Celestial Flare in that role against TNN decks, and I have been happy enough so far. The lower cost is a pretty big deal to the point that I also like it against other creatures. Worth discussing.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
Fry, the reason why
Wing Shards is mediocre against Elves is the same reason all of our hate is. They have a lot of ways of accomplishing the same thing, and, in the card pool available to us, I just don't know of any way to disable all of those methods. Wing Shards can effectively end the giant buildup turn followed by attack that Elves has always been able to pull off. But if they Natural Order into Craterhoof or go Cradle into Cradle, they get enough mana to Zenith for him without the storm counters. We have hate for everything Elves does. But it is spread among lots of different cards that you have to get lucky no matter what. So ask yourself - is it better than Canonist? Aven Mindcensor? Cursed Totem? Grafdigger's Cage? There is a lot of hate coming in for this matchup. Which will you cut in favor of Wing Shards? I think they are all stronger than Shards.
BUT
I use
Celestial Flare in that role against TNN decks, and I have been happy enough so far. The lower cost is a pretty big deal to the point that I also like it against other creatures. Worth discussing.
It is nice to use it on the offensive, especially knocking down a goyf
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
With Brimaz around can eiganjo castle come back? Even harder to kill.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
When will Brimaz be released on MTGO? Is it a week after the official release?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miguelmatix
With Brimaz around can eiganjo castle come back? Even harder to kill.
eiganjo castle is not that bad of an idea, if i would run Brimaz i would have a total of 8 legendary creatures, which means it could be quite good.... it would even help a lot against punishing fires IMO, but thats just theory... testing will tell
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
If TNN is such a big deal, and Elves are a bad matchup, why not play Holy Light in the SB?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I enjoy lurking on this forum, and can't get over how hilarious it is that the consensus is 1-0 spirit of the labrynth, and yet elves is a horrible matchup. Highly amusing.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rock Lee
I enjoy lurking on this forum, and can't get over how hilarious it is that the consensus is 1-0 spirit of the labrynth, and yet elves is a horrible matchup. Highly amusing.
Where'd you read that?
I also wonder what Spirit does against NO/Hoof
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
Where'd you read that?
I also wonder what Spirit does against NO/Hoof
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
Using your words would greatly add to my ability to answer poorly phrased questions.
Assuming you are referring to elves being a poor matchup, this has been opined ad nauseam on these forums, I two fisted test, and speak with elves players.
Regarding beating natural order, spirit shuts down the deck's smoothing, thus giving you time to land thalia + aven mindcensor.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rock Lee
Using your words would greatly add to my ability to answer poorly phrased questions.
Assuming you are referring to elves being a poor matchup, this has been opined ad nauseam on these forums, I two fisted test, and speak with elves players.
Regarding beating natural order, spirit shuts down the deck's smoothing, thus giving you time to land thalia + aven mindcensor.
Firstly, I don't think anyone has closed the book on this, it needs to be tested.
Secondly, Elves strategy follows three lines from the opening hand. 1.)NO, GSZ 2.) Glimpse 3.) CBH already in hand (dumb luck). You are right, the card advantage is insane but it often involves multiple spells per turn. Best pre board cards against the strategies list are 1.) Aven Mindscenor, 2.) Canonist, SoL, 3.) Canonist/revoker/Stp not great but what we have. As you can see, it stops only one line that canonist already does really well and canonist assists on the dumb luck line. I like them both and they need to be tested but if it is a choice, I would prefer canonist.
It's all speculation in the end though and given one of my most common MUs is Elves I will play both I just think I will land a canonist first. This also does not consider the broader meta.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rock Lee
Using your words would greatly add to my ability to answer poorly phrased questions.
Assuming you are referring to elves being a poor matchup, this has been opined ad nauseam on these forums, I two fisted test, and speak with elves players.
Regarding beating natural order, spirit shuts down the deck's smoothing, thus giving you time to land thalia + aven mindcensor.
To clarify:
Where did you read that 1-0 Spirit is "the consensus"? I have seen no such post, nor them trending towards that conclusion. In what testing I have done--"two fisting" as you describe it--I have the general feeling that Spirit is a sideboard card, like Ethersworn Canonist. There are too many matchups where the card (Spirit) is useless, like Jund, NicFit or the Mirror, to make it worthwhile in the main. Her tax is conditional--requiring an opponent to draw cards--and is honestly best when vialed into play in response to a brainstorm. I think two, with an enlightened tutor, is the proper amount for the sideboard.
My larger point is that Spirit isn't the perfect Elves hoser I (and maybe others) thought it originally to be, hence my "NO/Hoof" comment. Some games, yes, you'll shut off Symbiote/Visionary or Glimpse and they'll be dead long enough for you to charge up a Jitte. Other games you'll cast Spirit, they'll play some mana dudes and tutor up a Hoofie and kill you. There is no perfect solution as of yet to the Elves matchup; that's what makes Elves a DTB.
I also wonder why you'd keep in a Thalia against Elves. I have managed a very rare win or two through her, but she's largely ineffective in games two and three.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
dredgemundo is a fellow D&T player on MODO. Here's his latest list:
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
7 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
2 Cataclysm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
3 Runed Halo
1 Veteran Armorer
Two thing I'd like to discuss about this list: What is your experience with Dust Bowl + Flagstones? I kinda like the single Caverns, considering how blue-heavy the current MODO meta is, but having a 5th Wasteland option doesn't sound too bad either. Makes the deck a bit worse against BMs, though.
What caught my eye is the Runed Halo, though, since he upped the number from 2 to 3. Seems like an interesting option to fight off TNN (which have spread in the online meta like the plague) since its a permanent solution to turn it off while you fly over it. And it could be semi-useful against other decks as well.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
I don't know how much I can stress this: Ruined Halo is NOT a solution to the "TNN problem."
It does not have legs. It is godawfully narrow in use and application. It doesn't nullify the decks running TNN. It simply means that you sided out dudes that can attack, or relevant spells.
Dust Bowl is too durdly, Flagstones are OK with Cataclysm, but suck against Blood Moon or a Mindcensor + Wasteland.
On the whole, I dislike the list.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
ROCK LEEEE!!!!!! 'SUP???!!?
I'm in a combo heavy meta and have been thinking of running 2 Spirits main.
EVERYONE: With the cards available to use pre-Spirit and Mufasa release, what are our best choices vs. Merfolk?
Also, we've got a good player here running UWr Miracle Control...who has 1x Back to Basics, 4 Terminus, 4 STP, and 1 Supreme Verdict main. I'm SO TEMPTED to run 2 Gaddock Teeg....!
Any recommendations? I expect to play against both decks tomorrow night.
Dave
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavidHernandez
ROCK LEEEE!!!!!! 'SUP???!!?
I'm in a combo heavy meta and have been thinking of running 2 Spirits main.
EVERYONE: With the cards available to use pre-Spirit and Mufasa release, what are our best choices vs. Merfolk?
Also, we've got a good player here running UWr Miracle Control...who has 1x Back to Basics, 4 Terminus, 4 STP, and 1 Supreme Verdict main. I'm SO TEMPTED to run 2 Gaddock Teeg....!
Any recommendations? I expect to play against both decks tomorrow night.
Dave
Merfolk should be doable with MoR and Sword of Fire and Ice. You can also use Thalia + Karakas to fog at least 1 creature.
Against Miracles you can hope to land a Vial and a Revoker on Top. If they can't Miracle in your turn, you're much better off. Supreme Verdict should not be an issue between Wasteland, Port and Thalia... Also try not to commit to much to the board and have creatures ready for when they use Terminus.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
How good is Brimaz? It seems more and more people try to fit in two copies. Should I get those copies asap after their release on MODO or can I play the waiting game, hoping that prices are going to drop after the initial onslaught?
Edit: In which match-ups is Cataclysm good, aside from Miracles?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
How good is Brimaz? It seems more and more people try to fit in two copies. Should I get those copies asap after their release on MODO or can I play the waiting game, hoping that prices are going to drop after the initial onslaught?
Edit: In which match-ups is Cataclysm good, aside from Miracles?
He's nuts. Simply insane. Durable enough against red decks and tribal strategies, relevant enough to pull you ahead on a stalled or unfavourable board and easy to protect because of Karakas. Get some asap
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
He's nuts. Simply insane. Durable enough against red decks and tribal strategies, relevant enough to pull you ahead on a stalled or unfavourable board and easy to protect because of Karakas. Get some asap
Sounds good. How does he perform against TNN, though? Sure, he can survive combat against a single TNN, but they often have back-up blockers.
What do people cut for him, though? I've really started to like Aven Mindcensor as a 2x.
From what I've gathered from the Salvation thread, Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty underwhelming.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Sounds good. How does he perform against TNN, though? Sure, he can survive combat against a single TNN, but they often have back-up blockers.
What do people cut for him, though? I've really started to like Aven Mindcensor as a 2x.
From what I've gathered from the Salvation thread, Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty underwhelming.
My testing list is the 23 Land, 11 Spells and the following Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Aven Mindcensor
Other lists I've seen have flexed out 2x Aven Mindcensor or the 3rd Flickerwisp and 4th Phyrexian Revoker to accommodate Spirit of the Labyrinth or Mangara of Corondor. In this list I like Aven Mindcensor for being flier 7-8 against True-Name Nemesis. I also like that Aven Mindcensor checks Elves ability to Natural Order or Green Sun's Zenith; in conjunction with Revoker on Heritage Druid and Swords to Plowshares they're ability to go off is limited.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Sounds good. How does he perform against TNN, though? Sure, he can survive combat against a single TNN, but they often have back-up blockers.
What do people cut for him, though? I've really started to like Aven Mindcensor as a 2x.
From what I've gathered from the Salvation thread, Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty underwhelming.
I'll probably be playing:
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
11 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Serra Avenger
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Celestial Flare
The theory being that Serra Avenger and Brimaz have similar roles and abilities (3-power beatsticks that disrupt combat with Vigilance). While I'm softer to Elves, I gain a significant edge against the new Lands brew with 3 Mangara and Jund with Brimaz. I may squeeze in Mindcensors in the board.
I'm actually finding Spirit to be lackluster as well. Maybe I'll appease Rock Lee and go down to one copy in my sideboard!
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Decided to hang up my Brainstorms, and will be using this as the starting point for an upcoming SCG event.
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Serra Avenger
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
3x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3x Flickerwisp
2x Mangara of Corondor
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Cavern of Souls
9x Plains
1x Cursed Totem
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Rest in Peace
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Manriki-Gusari
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
Getting to this 75 has been somewhat frustrating, as the last time I played DNT was when Mangara was the staple, and before TNN. Comments, questions, concerns, etc.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
61 cards?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SevenInTheQueue
<28 Creatures>
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Serra Avenger
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
3x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3x Flickerwisp
2x Mangara of Corondor
<11 Spells>
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
<23 Land>
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Cavern of Souls
9x Plains
<15 SB>
1x Cursed Totem
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Rest in Peace
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Manriki-Gusari
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
Getting to this 75 has been somewhat frustrating...
You are at 77...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
61 cards?
62
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Whoops, meant to exclude Mangara from that list.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Can't wait to pick up my Mufasas! From what I gathered he is quite the game changer.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
How's Meekstone against Delver/TNN decks? Lost twice today BUG Delver with Double Delver + TNN draws today and that left me kinda salty.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
How's Meekstone against Delver/TNN decks? Lost twice today BUG Delver with Double Delver + TNN draws today and that left me kinda salty.
It's good as a psuedo removal spell against Delver/TNN decks. I think it's better against UWR Delver and RUG Delver, since they usually only have 1-2 Wear//Tear or Ancient Grudge to address our equipment, Rest in Peace and Meekstone. BUG decks have 4 Abrupt Decay at their disposal so they have more cards that directly deal with Meekstone on the table. They also regularly have Thoughtseize where the above mentioned decks often have STP or Bolt. This again gives them more choices in addressing non-Creature problems.
Another aside to the Meekstone discussion is whether or not Ensnaring Bridge is stronger at accomplishing this defensive role. Meekstone requires less set up and has built in favorable interactions with our 2/x's and Vigilant guys. Ensnaring Bridge requires the controller to float cards in hand to attack profitably, thus managing often deploying only one card a turn - it's upside is that when it works the undercosted Blue 3/x's don't even get one attack and that it splashes hate against Craterhoof Behemoth, Griselbrand, Emrakul and more fringe cards like Knight of the Reliquary and MUD's attackers.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Ensnaring Bridge is alot harder to resolve against Delver decks, though, since you need :3: and potential Daze mana while they can also disrupt your mana. If you add Thalia to the equation, things get ugly.
