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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I'm playing something very similar to this atm, I've been brewing a lot lists lately and it seems to me that your list is very close to what the perfect dreadstill list would be. I'm thinking mainly on the lavamancers, they are absolutely top-notch in today's meta, as well as acting very well under standstill. I've also, like you, added a 4th waste and cut a misrah. My only disagreement with your list is the fact that you're not running 4 dazes. I think there is a dilemma to playing daze. To get the most out of daze you want it asap, while at the same time it isn't a really great card late other than how it pitches to fow. Given the fact that our deck is now more tempo-oriented than ever, I strongly advocate running 4 daze since it is such an important card on the play. I'd just cut the misdirection tbh, the list simply becomes more tight that way. I'm also a bit curious why you decided to run 21 lands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HammafistRoob
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
21 Lands was always the standard number back in the day, although it's definitely possible that 20 is correct. The thing is though, Wasteland doesn't really count as a mana source at all in this deck. Maybe you use it for Standstill,Dreadnought or Trickbind(9 cards out of 60) every now and then but it isn't ever really going to be a relevant mana source, and neither will Factory. So basically I'm playing 14 true lands.
Daze is probably better now than it has ever been, but you generally don't want to see them even in the midgame. Brainstorm is already pulling double duty shuffling back excess lands and Dreadnoughts. Adding Daze into that equation makes for some clunky situations. I've also got Pierce in the main basically acting as extra Dazes with a bit more staying power. Pierce is just insane right now against every deck I feel like it should be a mainstay in every list. That's just my opinion, it's possible that 4 Daze is where we want to be.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
any thoughts on my list? I am running it at a tournament tomorrow, and any adjustments you veterans could give me would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jackehehe
I'm playing something very similar to this atm, I've been brewing a lot lists lately and it seems to me that your list is very close to what the perfect dreadstill list would be. I'm thinking mainly on the lavamancers, they are absolutely top-notch in today's meta, as well as acting very well under standstill. I've also, like you, added a 4th waste and cut a misrah. My only disagreement with your list is the fact that you're not running 4 dazes. I think there is a dilemma to playing daze. To get the most out of daze you want it asap, while at the same time it isn't a really great card late other than how it pitches to fow. Given the fact that our deck is now more tempo-oriented than ever, I strongly advocate running 4 daze since it is such an important card on the play. I'd just cut the misdirection tbh, the list simply becomes more tight that way. I'm also a bit curious why you decided to run 21 lands.
I was totally fine with 3 Dazes and I don't think it's a must to have all 4. The point is exactly that sometimes 4 gets clunky, because we don't run other filters like Ponder or such, only BS. Spell Pierce is the optimal support of course.
@HammafistRoob: Your list is only few cards off from mine, so I'm not too surprised. It works for me perfectly, so why not for others :). I would maybe only think, is it mandatory to have exactly Ancient Grudge as the artifact hate, or could the Tropical be replaced with a basic Mountain? What I have found out, is that especially with Lavamancers, it becomes very important to have a non-wastelandable source of red mana, because it's fairly easy to render them useless by just denying the red sources. Also if you plan on bringing in many blasts and still have bolts or mancers in, it's kind of pushing on the number of red sources. But if you feel that you absolutely need the Grudge, then this is the obvious place to cut.
For sideboard, I don't really like to debate, it's so dependent on what you are expecting to face. :). I guess you have a lot of graveyard decks in your meta, and for those, Cage is definitely the best. But have to still say that I really like your list and of course it feels good to notice that through testing, others come to the same conclusions about card choices. It's always easy to pick up a very played deck and take the "optimal" deck list that everyone is playing. But for fringe deck that no-one is playing, like ours, it requires more work from each individual and usually lists differ a lot. But good luck for your next tournament then! I'll be playing this at GP Paris for sure, maybe also in some trials if I find the time for that.
@monovfox: I've never really played with UB versions, so I don't really know what to think about the list. I just can't quite understand how, or in what it is better than the UR version? Tombstalker is a big threat but we already have the Nought. Blacks removal on the other hand can't possibly match with the red ones, so at least for me this is a clear choice. But if you really insist on the Tombstalker plan, I think you should definitely play Vision Charms, as it is a super ritual for the stalker and a way to cheat in nought. You'll loose probably Trickbind, but in this case I feel it's acceptable.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monovfox
I switched to a more standard list with standstills and wastelands. Still UB, though.
my current list that I am building. 2 forces down, 2 to go.
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Disfigure
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Marsh Flats
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Standstill
2 Trickbind
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Dread of Night
I would probably not run discard in the main deck, and Swan Song doesn't really play well with our strategy. Vision Charm is really good if you plan to run Tombstalkers, so maybe you want them instead of Trickbind. For the maindeck I would say -3 Discard, -2 Trickbind, +2 Vision Charm, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Daze/Pierce/Snare/Flusterstorm. Sideboard I'd swap the Songs and Duress out for some number of Thoughtseize/Flusterstorm/Pierce.
How has Dread been working out of the board? Seems pretty mana intensive here.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Divert is also pretty nasty, too. Misdirection is cool but sometimes the CA can actually be relevant.
I'm also really reluctant to let go of Top completely...I love that card in Dreadstill CB or not.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Got there with the following list:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Standstill
2 Trickbind
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Spell Pierce
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Dismember
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Submerge
I liked the maindeck thoughtseize, though the inquisition should have been spell pierce. Probably should have had a 1/1 split of trick bind and vision charm.
Swan Song is actually decent. You just play a dreadnought or tombstalker and go over it.
Sideboard: I played hymn because I wanted to flip delver to it. Goal accomplished, against a combo opponent.
I beat:
Grixis, UWR, and RUG Delver. Played the quarter finals against ANT (I had the most OP standstill draw ever of flusterstorm, force, force. I then drew a swan song. )
I like the idea of swan song against decks where spell pierce is not necessarily a hard counter (read: show and tell and storm). Plus, I can just race a 2/2 swan.
Tombstalker was a total beast.
I should have played disfigure, but I already ordered them from starcity, and didn't feel like buying a playset locally.
I also played thoughtseize because I know people around me like to play Aether Vial decks, and if you can take their good stuff, you win.
also, I've found I like massacre over dread of night, as I can also side it in against UWR Delver and Esper Stoneblade.
Left in first place with a shiny new MP force of will. 3 down, one to go.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
@ Yan, Monovfox: Congrats on your finishes! ;)
I really like this deck and am mostly interested in the red version.
Could anyone enlighten me with boarding (playing Yans list for example)? In which MU do you board out the Dreadnoughts and for which cards? In this list doesn't 3 Needle and 3 Explosives feel excessive? I can't imagine a MU where you want to board 3 Explosives... moreover a sideboard containing so many non instants/sorceries will make Delvers weak after boarding (they are weaker than in the (other) Tempodecks anyway).
I'm concerned about the manabase as well...playing only 13 real manasources and no Ponders, doesn't manacrew happen to often?!
I would be happy if you could enlighten me, as reviving this deck seems like so much fun!
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Yeah I agree with you that 3 explosives is a bit excessive. I don't run explosives at all, my board consists of 1 grim, 4 REB, 3 needles, 2 relic of progenitus, 1 surgical extraction, 2 sulfur elementals and 2 divert, its been working decently for m so far. I also share your concern regarding the mana, somehow it does seem to work out though, I guess its because we have so cheap spells. Im considering going for 21 lands though.
I'm also wondering if anyone had the (mis)fortune of facing a BUG landstill deck? I just played vs one on cockatrice and I got completely slaughtered. I guess I shouldnt be too concerned about this deck since most control players play miracles nowadays but still, if BUG landstill becomes more popular I think we are in deep shit. Consider the following: they operate much better under standstill with waste/misrah and creeping-tar pit. They have abrupt decay as well as innocent blood. They play liliana and they play jace. And deed. Lol.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zerzab11
@ Yan, Monovfox: Congrats on your finishes! ;)
I really like this deck and am mostly interested in the red version.
Could anyone enlighten me with boarding (playing Yans list for example)? In which MU do you board out the Dreadnoughts and for which cards? In this list doesn't 3 Needle and 3 Explosives feel excessive? I can't imagine a MU where you want to board 3 Explosives... moreover a sideboard containing so many non instants/sorceries will make Delvers weak after boarding (they are weaker than in the (other) Tempodecks anyway).
I'm concerned about the manabase as well...playing only 13 real manasources and no Ponders, doesn't manacrew happen to often?!
I would be happy if you could enlighten me, as reviving this deck seems like so much fun!
I've been working on a sideboarding guide for my list and sideboard, but i was thinking to probably keep it mostly for myself. Anyway, it's just really detailed so it would only help if you are basically using my exact 75. (Like minus this and plus that).
Concerning the other issues, i would say that it's basically against control decks that you take out the dreadnoughts. Like miracles, various stoneblades, d&t, landstill etc. Reasoning behind this is that they have so much efficient removal, that you will most surely get 2 for 1ed. Maverick is on the edge, but i feel delvers are just not enough to win here, so you need to take that risk with the nought. Jund is probably our nightmare match up, but punishing fire is worse than decay, so i would just put my hopes on dreadnought and misdirection and try to get lucky.
EE for me is a catch all card. In Finland, various chalice decks are always presented, and this deck just rolls over and dies to chalice at 1. I could run some artifact hate here, but i feel EE answers all the things i want to answer, but also provides something extra for some match ups, that i don't have much to bring in against. Let's say belcher and storm decks with empty the warrens.
I admit that this is not the best deck for delver, but it still flips blindly enough times to be still really good. Sometimes you also want to board out the delvers.
Manabase I'm mostly happy with, you just have to fetch basics whenever you can and be more careful. Of course sometimes you have to mulligan to get the right lands. 21 lands is also one solution, if you want to play it more safe.
EDIT: For the UBG Landstill, I don't necessary agree. Yes, it's a difficult match up because of Deed, Decay and Liliana, but certainly not un-winable. And they are definitely not the better deck under Standstill. They usually don't have the full 4 Wastes, but have more manlands, so on the lands, they are maybe better. But we have 8 1-drops to turn it totally upside down and resolving any one of them before Standstill, will result on them breaking the still.
And if anyone is interested in the sideboard guide, I can send it through PM, there's no need to spam the thread with that. Anyway these lists just differ so much, that for most of you guys, it would be just useless.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Spam Spell Pierce and Diverts against BUG Landstill. They are pretty good against us but thankfully they have alot higher curve than us. Our ideal situation is trying to stick Delver against them and getting Standstill down.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Why board noughts out against DnT? As a DnT pilot (with a decent reputation), I believe the most effective route to beat DnT is all-in combo. Use your force of wills aggressively, back your dreadnought up with dazes, and stifle flickerwisp. Bam. If you can go bigger than DnT (not legendary bigger), you will probably end up winning. It's a big part of why the deck is cold to inkwell leviathan and true name nemesis + equipment.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monovfox
Why board noughts out against DnT? As a DnT pilot (with a decent reputation), I believe the most effective route to beat DnT is all-in combo. Use your force of wills aggressively, back your dreadnought up with dazes, and stifle flickerwisp. Bam. If you can go bigger than DnT (not legendary bigger), you will probably end up winning. It's a big part of why the deck is cold to inkwell leviathan and true name nemesis + equipment.
inkwell and tnn have one big difference to dreadnought, dnt can't remove them in almost anyway. Nought, on the other hand, is just too vulnerable and also difficult to even resolve through all the mana denial. It's going to be a loosing battle to try (I have tried many times). Your other creatures are very well positioned in the match up and sulfur elemental makes it just brutal. I'd rather try going for card advantage than disadvantage, and it's never a good place to be force of willing grizzly bears, you just end up loosing in that trade.
Well, at least that's how I aproach the match up. If you are getting just really luckly, then of course winning with dreadnought will feel easy. it's just not something I would put my hopes on, when there is another way to beat them.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yan
inkwell and tnn have one big difference to dreadnought, dnt can't remove them in almost anyway. Nought, on the other hand, is just too vulnerable and also difficult to even resolve through all the mana denial. It's going to be a loosing battle to try (I have tried many times). Your other creatures are very well positioned in the match up and sulfur elemental makes it just brutal. I'd rather try going for card advantage than disadvantage, and it's never a good place to be force of willing grizzly bears, you just end up loosing in that trade.
Well, at least that's how I aproach the match up. If you are getting just really luckly, then of course winning with dreadnought will feel easy. it's just not something I would put my hopes on, when there is another way to beat them.
I find DnT quite troublesome at times at well, im not really sure why though. I guess it depends on their 4 StP, flickerwisp and whatnot. So yeah, I tend to board out all my dreadnoughts as well (sometimes leaving a single on in). You seem to be boarding out your FoWs as well?
Here is what I board in vs DnT
+1 grim
+2 sulfur elemental
+3 pithing needle
(+2 divert?)
I am not really sure what to board out though except for dreadnoughts. FoW is an interesting option, what about standstill? its obviously quite bad vs vial, and swinging with misrah is tough vs rishadan and wasteland...
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yan
inkwell and tnn have one big difference to dreadnought, dnt can't remove them in almost anyway. Nought, on the other hand, is just too vulnerable and also difficult to even resolve through all the mana denial. It's going to be a loosing battle to try (I have tried many times). Your other creatures are very well positioned in the match up and sulfur elemental makes it just brutal. I'd rather try going for card advantage than disadvantage, and it's never a good place to be force of willing grizzly bears, you just end up loosing in that trade.
Well, at least that's how I aproach the match up. If you are getting just really luckly, then of course winning with dreadnought will feel easy. it's just not something I would put my hopes on, when there is another way to beat them.
I play the UB version. Tends to shut them down better (discard helps). Death and taxes struggles against fast combo. That's the role we should be playing. Post board you have ~2 spells to counter, and 2 triggers to stifle. If that fails, you drop a big threat. If that fails, you have time walked for 4 turns.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
UB versions don't have such a game against creatures, as the UR has, so they probably have to go for the combo. I would definitely start by boarding out dreadnoughts and trickbinds (stifle can still be efficient), then comes spell pierce, which doesn't have so many targets. Misdirection is also a bit narrow here. My force comment was more on the matter, that you want to save them for things that matter, like stops, not to counter some random bear with a good ability, which you can anyway shoot down with your red cards. I still rather have a deck that controls all of their creatures, than try to go for the lucky quick win.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yan
UB versions don't have such a game against creatures, as the UR has, so they probably have to go for the combo. I would definitely start by boarding out dreadnoughts and trickbinds (stifle can still be efficient), then comes spell pierce, which doesn't have so many targets. Misdirection is also a bit narrow here. My force comment was more on the matter, that you want to save them for things that matter, like stops, not to counter some random bear with a good ability, which you can anyway shoot down with your red cards. I still rather have a deck that controls all of their creatures, than try to go for the lucky quick win.
You save the force for STP, and stifle for their creatures. It's the most effecient way to fight them.
No need to counter their creatures. Just trample over them, or go larger and fly.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monovfox
You save the force for STP, and stifle for their creatures. It's the most effecient way to fight them.
let's be honest. It means you need probably 2 stifle effects in hand, then add to that Thalia, port and waste. That's a lot of mana for this deck to accomplish. I just don't see it happening. If they have stop, you still need 4 cards and butt load of mana. I agree that the UB version doesn't have another option, so they have to, but UR has, and the other option is much better. many will see my 3 sulfur elementals, and think that I must really fear dnt, but it really is not only for that, because it's also a control killer.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I still believe that if you go for the dreadnought plan, you will have more success than the other plan of actions. Pull a standstill, 1x daze, and 1x spell pierce for some hate cards (perhaps tombstalker being pulled is correct, they might bring in rest in peace).
As someone who has tested the matchup on both sides, I think the dreadnought plan will get there 90% of the time. Unless the following are true:
They have resolved a turn 1 vial.
They have a turn 2 thalia, and you have no way to deal with it (if they have mana denial). BUT, you'll have the power of removal and -1/-1 effects, so that basically eliminates the only problems in the matchup.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Today when playing Dredge, I discovered that casting a Phyrexian Dreadnought (without Stifle) is actually an extremely efficient way to get rid of their Bridges from Below.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Today when playing Dredge, I discovered that casting a Phyrexian Dreadnought (without Stifle) is actually an extremely efficient way to get rid of their Bridges from Below.
http://i.imgur.com/FVqiJlH.jpg
As is Lavamancer and Wasteland + Mishra's Factory.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monovfox
I still believe that if you go for the dreadnought plan, you will have more success than the other plan of actions. Pull a standstill, 1x daze, and 1x spell pierce for some hate cards (perhaps tombstalker being pulled is correct, they might bring in rest in peace).
As someone who has tested the matchup on both sides, I think the dreadnought plan will get there 90% of the time. Unless the following are true:
They have resolved a turn 1 vial.
They have a turn 2 thalia, and you have no way to deal with it (if they have mana denial). BUT, you'll have the power of removal and -1/-1 effects, so that basically eliminates the only problems in the matchup.
If you are now talking about the UR version, then we just have to agree to disagree :) I also play dnt, and I agree that the lack of lavamamcers makes it that the UB version has to go for the combo. UR has basically infinite removal on that guy (lavamancer), so there is no need to go all in. I also think you listed exactly, what the game plan of dnt is, so if they are not executing that, I have to wonder why they kept in the first place. So in conclusion, even though I have never played the UB version in any tournaments and only tested it a little:
Against dnt,
UB version: go for the dreadnought combo and pray.
UR version: side in sulfur elementals, needles etc. And play the tempo control game. You'll never get 2:1ed for no reason
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I test against myself a lot.
most of my practice just comes from goldfishing decks.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I've been testing and tweaking Roob's list quite a bit recently and I think I'm getting really close to an optimized list in True-Name.metagame. This is the list I've been running. I've been having a lot of success with the mini Trinket package.
Lands:21
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
Creatures:11
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Trinket Mage
Noncreature Spells:28
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
1 Trickbind
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard:15
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sulfer Elemental
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mountain
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Your list looks pretty nice. How are your bording plans with this sideboard?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Which matchup and on the play or on the draw?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I would say both otp and otd. The boarding against uwr tempo and against midrange would be interesting! Also your boarding plans against death and taxes!
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
D&T:
OTP
-1 Force of Will / Spell Pierce
-1 Misdirection
-2 Flusterstorm
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Mountain
OTD
-2 Daze
-1 Misdirection
-2 Flusterstorm
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Sulfer Elemental
+1 Mountain
+1 Force of Will
My phone is dying I'll add the rest later.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I agree with all of that except cutting Top. These games tend to get grindy and that's where Top really shines. Definitely take out Pierce on the draw, it doesn't really counter anything except a late Vial, a Swords, or hardcast equipment.
Remember when playing against D&T that they have Flickerwisp for your Noughts, either fire him off turn 2 on the play with counter backup for Swords or try and wait till you have an extra Stifle effect and a counter. Grim Lavamancer puts this matchup out of reach for them almost single handedly, he should be your first priority.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
So in a few weeks it is time for GPT and I'm going to bring this list, or something very similar:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Trickbind
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Mountain
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 Divert
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
As you can see its nothing spectacular. I think running Grims MD is pretty much mandotary now, especially in my meta where I expect to see a lot of creature-based decks. My biggest concern with my MD is the misdirection. I'm wondering if I just shouldnt cut it to make the deck a bit more consistent (adding another spell pierce? or cut a pierce and go with 2 pierce 2 snares?) or actually cut something and add another one, lol. Quite ambivalent of me I guess. I am really liking misdirection though and it seems to me that single-spot removals are running rampant these days which then again begs the question why I should play this deck when I do have the cards needed for a standard RUG-build. I guess its simply because there is nothing quite like it as cheating in an early nought vs a deck that you know cant deal with it, heh.
Apart from that I'm actually considering cutting my graveyard hate completely. I'm not worried about facing dredge, fiirstly because I dont think it will be well-represented and secondly, I think that the MU is pretty much a coinflip anyway. Only running 2 Relics seems kind of half-assed, and I don't want to commit more of my board towards it. I am however doubtful if this doesnt hurt my RUG MU, which I suspect might be something to expect. What are you guys' thoughts on this? Is Tormods/relic crucial vs RUG? How do you guys board vs RUG generally?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Seems like that with basic mountain you would want 4x Scalding Tarn, is that an issue of card access?
I feel same about Dredge, you can probably just ignore it.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
syfilisx
Seems like that with basic mountain you would want 4x Scalding Tarn, is that an issue of card access?
I feel same about Dredge, you can probably just ignore it.
oh gods, I AM in fact running 4 scaling and 2 flooded lol, no idea how I messed that up, I guess its based on an ooooold list. Strange I haven't noticed. Anyways, there definately seems to be a decline in dredge as of lately, is it because of Deathrite shaman maybe?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
RUG has historically been a positive matchup for us since they almost fold to a single Standstill nevermind a Dreadnought. It also helps that we have more lands than them including basic lands. Still though Tarmogoyf can be an issue if we lack pressure and they have a quick start. I suggest trying to counter Goyfs and attack their mana aggressively. We can get Geese with Factories and Delvers with Lavamancer or our own Delver if need be, but once a Goyf lands your on a serious clock or forced into bad 2for1's.
Are Sulfur Elementals only for D&T? I'm not really sure you need them honestly.
I agree Dredge is pretty close to even, probably in our favor if they don't know your plan. Dredge isn't losing steam because of just Deathrite, but a combination of how difficult it is to know against an unknown opponent whether your hand has to be able to beat Discard; Counters+Wasteland; or Deathrite+ Discard/Counters. But the main reason for gy hate is for Reanimator which has seen a slight boost in the metagame recently.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HammafistRoob
RUG has historically been a positive matchup for us since they almost fold to a single Standstill nevermind a Dreadnought. It also helps that we have more lands than them including basic lands. Still though Tarmogoyf can be an issue if we lack pressure and they have a quick start. I suggest trying to counter Goyfs and attack their mana aggressively. We can get Geese with Factories and Delvers with Lavamancer or our own Delver if need be, but once a Goyf lands your on a serious clock or forced into bad 2for1's.
Are Sulfur Elementals only for D&T? I'm not really sure you need them honestly.
I agree Dredge is pretty close to even, probably in our favor if they don't know your plan. Dredge isn't losing steam because of just Deathrite, but a combination of how difficult it is to know against an unknown opponent whether your hand has to be able to beat Discard; Counters+Wasteland; or Deathrite+ Discard/Counters. But the main reason for gy hate is for Reanimator which has seen a slight boost in the metagame recently.
Thank you for those insights. I suppose that it makes sense for us to focus on countering goyf. In general I guess its favorable for us to try to delay the game as long as possible, trying to resolves a standstill or a dreadnought I mean, playing defensively up till then.
Sulfur elementals indeed come in vs DnT. I think DnT is quite troublesome for us pre-board, since landing a dreadnought is very hard vs stp, mangara and flickerwisp. It might be though that I am exaggerating abit with sulfur elementals, since I guess our match up post-board gets better once we can board out noughts. Initially I thought that sulfur elementals couldnt possibly be a good SB card because it is too narrow. It does however, seem to me, that it can be good vs control such as miracles. This is a topic that I'd like to discuss further; how do you guys generally play vs miracles? I've found it very hard to rely on dreadnoughts since its more often than not simply a waste of 2 cards. They have like 4 stps, 2-3 terminus and also some jaces in late game and a huge suite of counters. I find myself trying to grind the match up by dropping one creature at a time, trying to sneak in a few points of damage and then eventually finish them off with a bolt or two heh. I think Sulfur elemental helps here, since its another body that can deal some relevant damage, getting 3 mana shouldnt be a problem in this match up. Another thing to keep in mind is that you can use your stifles to stifle miracle trigger, thereby allowing yourself to overextend which is yet another reason to drop the noughts post-board.
my SB plan is something like this vs miracles:
-4 daze
-4 goyf
+3 needles
+3 REB
+2 sulfur elemental
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I have found Sulfur Elementals valuable exactly the way Jackehehe described. Obviously they are really good against D&T, which in my opinion is a matchup that needs help. I also board them in against various control decks, which seem to have infinite removal and where it just seems too evident, that Nought will be removed immediately. Your boarding plan is close to mine, just some minor differences depending on sideboard and main. (assuming goyf=nought ;) )
EDIT: So my plan against Miracles is mostly: mess around with their manipulation (needle on top), destroy or counter their disruption (EE or blast on Counterbalance) and not letting their win conditions through (Jace gets killed by sulfur, needle, blast. Entreet can be stifled or countered). After that they still have deck full of removal, which I try ignore as much as possible; pinging damage little by little with delvers, lavamancers, elementals and factories (no need to over extend, 1 creature at a time is mostly enough. Even if you have all 3 factories, just beat with one and pump). It's really grindy matchup that people would naturally think that favors Miracles, but is not actually that bad for us. Standstill is obviously huge.
On the RUG matchup I agree on countering Goyfs and riding Standstills and Noughts to victory. Historically by far the best plan (have won a game on a mulligan to 4 with exactly that, admittetly with luck).
For Dredge, well, as you guys said, it's a coin flip. We have the tools to win without hate. Also it's not like old times, when you always faced at least one dredge in every tournament. For Reanimator, I have some very mixed results. I used to run 3 Grafdigger's Cage (never Relic with Lavamancers) and of course, sometimes it won me a game. Then other times, I didn't draw it and still won. Then sometimes they won even if I had it on board. So it didn't seem to have enough impact on the game for me. I know I can beat them without it and I know I can get beat even with it. So this one is really draw dependant matchup, but playing well also helps of course. Also, I haven't been seeing that much Reanimator yet.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I have tested UR-Dreadstill in the past and found myself in trouble when actually casting Standstill. I simply don't know when I should cast it. I had a lot of situations where I had Standstill in my hand but was lacking pressure on the board. Would you just cast it and hope to draw into Mishra's Factory, or wait and only cast it after a resolved Naught or with Mishra's in play? I have never played any Standstill Decks before, so i am very inexperienced with this matter.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I would still take GY hate going into an unknown meta. Reanimator and Ichorid are both pretty abyssal matchups for this deck I'd say 45/55 at best for us. I think it turns those matchups into definitely favorable postboard for us.
Regarding Standstill:
-There are a lot of situations where casting it is simply wrong. You really need to just test with the deck a lot to figure out when are good/bad situations to play it. Like if you're new to using Standstill I'd honestly say that T1 Delver or Lavamancer into Standstill is generally safe. As is Turn 2 playing it with Factory or something. Obviously if your opponent has Vial out it's not really relevant anymore. You need to find a new way to win.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Lightning Bolt
SB:
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Misdirection
1 Divert
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Pyroblast
Played basicly Yan's list (who's been mentoring me bit with a deck in my transition from UR Nivmagus into FIST) in local event for 4-0, only change is third sulfur elemental into Divert since in my shop people tend to play some decay & hymn.
Round 1: Burn
G1: I keep hand with T2 Naught on the draw, he pounds me with goblin guide, but Naught & Factory make it so that I just win with a misdirection & blue card still in my hand for his fireblast if he tries funny stuff.
G2: I mulligan into 6, get reasonably fast naught while disturbing him. Lose to him having two fireblasts and not playing a land for some punty reason and not able to spell pierce the other one and FOW the other.
G3: I mulligan again into 6, cantrip and permission. Manage to cantrip into standstill and play it for value since he has Rift Bolt Suspended. Get a naught and just win from there by protecting it from his Smash to Smithereens.
Sideboard: -2 Stanstill +Divert +Misdirection
Round 2: Dark Maverick
G1: On the draw T1 Grim Lavamancer T2 Naught - No Answer from him, plays two Confidants over the game, doesn't block Naught, dies to Confidants.
G2: He goes T1 Mother of Runes. I smirk at my hand with EE and Bolt, decide against bolting since I have only 1 fetch and wasteland could wreck me. I play fetch go. He goes Wasteland + Tseize, I fetch basic and brainstorm to hide my EE, hit like 3 lands, that's cool. He takes Stifle from my hand, leaving me with bolt and not much more than lands. I go land go, since I thinked Quasali Pridemage is more likely than another Tseize. He goes land third mother of runes, I am about to blow up. My T3 when I am about to bank on explosives I draw Sulfur Elemental, ok so game over. I play Sulfur Elemental on his end step to kill all three of hi mothers and start hitting, he play Knight T4, but because of Sulfur Elemental it's only 5/3 and I bolt it away. I land Standstill and opponent scoops it up. One of the 3 lands was factory too.
Sideboard: -4 Delver -3 Spell Pierce -2 Daze -2 Trickbind +2 Sulfur Elemental, +1 Grim +1 Misdirection +1 Crucible +3 EE +3 Pithing Needle
Round 3: Punishing Jund
G1: I knew the player was only lending deck and was kind of new to it, he grunted while keeping his 7 on the play so that I sensed that there was something wrong with that hand. I FOW T1 Deathrite and Waste Bayou after. He does not have colored mana T2, only wasteland BINGO. I play my dual to bait wasteland and drop delver. He takes the bait, and goes again T3 Wasteland. I flip delver, play island and pass. He draws grove, I spell pierce his bolt. I play factory and attack again with Delver, he plays punishing fire to Delver his next turn, which I daze, I get in for 5 with factory and delver. He plays third wasteland and gets rid of factory but I have double FOW to keep him from firing delver since recovering was full turn operation for him because of mana problems.
G2: He taps out for confidant T2, I tap out for Dreadnought. He does not have answer, only red cards in hand, could have kept open pyroblast and wasted me, but chose otherwise, which may or may have not been smart.
Sideboard: -4 Delver, -4 Force of Will, -2 Daze, +3 EE, +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Crucible +1 Misdirection, +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Divert
G3 Bug Delver
G1: I go Lavamancer into standstill on the draw, he kills Lavamancer. I miss land drops under standstill, he breaks it with Hymn few turns later, I misdirect hymn and we go force of will fight over that. I am victorius and he ends up with very few cards in hand so I just manage to drop threats and get him.
G2: Epic game, he manages to win though crucible + wasteland after much card advantage for me by dropping 6/7 Goyf and me not drawing answer to that. I have him dead with bolt & Mishra, but cannot pay the daze that was his last card. Could have maybe tried to block with factory to draw something, but I chose against it since all his 4 wastelands were still in the deck in addition to few disfigures that would kill me instantly or second goyf.
G3: I play all my colored sources on table with crucible, chain 3 standstills and drop naught with 2 factories on board against his Liliana on 4 and Goyf. That was enough for him. In early game I got his goyf with decay when he tried to rid me of Crucible and I Divert, he FOWS, I Misdirect, that was huge turn for me.
Good tournament and good feeling about deck.
Cheers,
Jani
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Excellent report Jani, thanks a lot as your SB notes help me a lot and I appreciate them.
I run a very similar list although I do not have the Misdirections (I am using Divert) so it was good to see how well you did.
Congrats and thanks once again.
