But you should never board Preachers in against a deck like Zoo. And Goblins dropped Fanatic a long time ago, so Preacher has some validity there in that match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
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But you should never board Preachers in against a deck like Zoo. And Goblins dropped Fanatic a long time ago, so Preacher has some validity there in that match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
i just checked the top 6 or so gobbos lists on deckcheck including spods list and while i know its not incredibly relivent it is in fact good against landstill and it is actually run in 2 or 3 of those lists. so heres what im saying. regardless of how good these lists of goblins are is it really worth it to play preacher when u completely risk undermining the (ep) strategy in favor of an uninformed pilot?
I've been testing the tempo thresh matchup a lot and have found that i prefer playing a 4th EE in the board for game 2 to deal with their mongoose than a 4th wrath since going up to 4 lands and then protecting the wrath from dazes can often time be difficult.
I have found that dropping wraths is worth in any case :) However, your argument does not make sense. Your game ending bombs are all cc4 (wrath, humility, decree, elspeth, disk if you run it): reaching 5-6 lands is mandatory. If you can't in a reasonable amount of time, then you are in trouble. If you can't, EE or not, you lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
Against Tempo Thresh, that's not true. The way Tempo Thresh beats you, is having a single Mongoose (Goyf sucks so much in this matchup) beat you down while disrupting you and mostly answering your hate. The more removal you have for Mongoose, the higher the chances for you to win. If you manage to remove the Mongoose, chances are Tempo Thresh will have to spend a couple of turns finding a new one. At that point, you're in a very good position.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
I think what i meant was that EE gives you more time to get the lands that you need.
Hey guys i actually don't play Landstill anymore, but i wanted to know why some people play preacher in their sideboard, as shackles or maybe Sower/Control Magic seemed better to me? :rolleyes:
Click one page back and read the discussion :D
No, the problem with more EEs against Tempo Thresh is that you make their late game Stifles more valuable. This is why I would rather have a 4th WoG rather than a 4th EE. Or better yet, board in Humility. Their cantrips are poor considered to CounterTop Threshes, so you don't have to worry that much about Crypt. And if they're dumb enough to drop Mongeese and trying to squeeze damage through, feel free to aim removal at it now that you have Humility in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
I really think that top is the best weapon against tempo thresh. They basically have to force it or get crushed by your card quality and ability to make land drops. Since they'll be playing the tempo game early, you'll even have your removal online within a turn or two after the drop their first goose. It's not foolproof, but it's the best plan I've seen thus far.
ok back to the drawing board then, I'm just trying to mold a sideboard that's strong against my meta but also won't lose to other tier 1 decks, thanks for all your advice.
The best advice I can give you is for you to play with what is comfortable for you, but know the power level and efficiency and versatility of your sideboard cards before you even consider putting them in.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
@rsaunder: That's a very interesting way of winning against Tempo Thresh. Probably the most effective and efficient way as well.
what a card that improves card quality, consistency in land drops, and also creates unfair gamestates. all four colorless mana so to defy wasteland and stifle color screw. who'd a thunk? nah just kidding but +1 for top strategy.
I said that a while back, but I don't think anyone heard me. That doubles over for all of the tempo matchups, including Merfolk.Quote:
I really think that top is the best weapon against tempo thresh. They basically have to force it or get crushed by your card quality and ability to make land drops. Since they'll be playing the tempo game early, you'll even have your removal online within a turn or two after the drop their first goose. It's not foolproof, but it's the best plan I've seen thus far.
Definitely glad you've made the same connection, though. Yet another reason why I advocate 4 Top's, aside from all the other reasons.
does preacher really help this deck's bad matchups?
no
I got a 3-4 place finish in a 65 person event in Boras, Sweden with this list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Sensei's divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
1 Fire // Ice
1 Lightning Helix
4 Standstill
2 Humility
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace Beleren
1 Ajani Vengeant
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains
Sideboard
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Meddling Mage
2 Firespout
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
In the swiss i went 5-1-1, Winning vs Pox, Ugw Countertop, Burn, Ledless dredge, Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, draw vs White Stax and losing vs Merfolk. I won the quarter vs a Ugw countertop list, then lost the semi vs a ugr tempo list.
My sideboard strategy was,
vs Zoo
-4 Standstill
-1 Jace Beleren
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-6 Kort
+4 Tarmogoyf
+2 Firespout
+6 Kort
vs Dredge
-4 Standstill
-4 Counterbalance
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
-1 Lightning Helix
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-1 Jace Beleren
-14 Kort
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Firespout
+14 Kort
vs ANT
-2 Humility
-1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
-1 Ajani Vengeant
-3 Swords to plowshares
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-8 kort
+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Meddling Mage
+8 kort
vs Merfolk
-4 Standstill
-4 kort
+2 Firespout
+2 Tarmogoyf
+4 kort
vs Tempotresh
-1 Fire // Ice
-1 Lightning Helix
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-1 Standstill
-4 Kort
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Firespout
+4 Kort
vs Goblins
-1 Spell Snare
-4 Standstill
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-6 Kort
+4 Tarmogoyf
+2 Firespout
+6 Kort
I feel I gained a lot versus alot of the harder matchups by adding the counterbalance maindeck. This is my first post here on mtgthesource but I am an avid reader!
Hi and welcome in this thread.
I'll post some considerations when I have more time. Just a flash question: why didn't you just add 3-4 tarmos maindeck if you sided in every match, and some letting humility in? You could've dropped red for green (garruck, tarmo, life from the loam, etc.),or just a 3-1 tropical-volcanic split for a 4th color (EE) and sb firespout.
I went to a tournament last weekend going 12th on 46 people.
I will spare you all the list because it was a very unsatisfying list with too many cute tricks and too little strategy. Since the cute tricks also failed at doing what they were brought in for there is very little to be said about that. It resembles the 61 card list Konsultant used a while back but with main deck relic of progenitus and a humility.
I played against:
Faeries (win, despite my best efforts to screw up game 2)
Landstill mirror (win, his manabase was very shaky and I managed to take advantage of that)
Merfolk (loss, because he topdecked like hell and I didn’t)
Doomsday combo (win, because I was extremely lucky game 1 and because I saw enough hatred game 2)
GWB loam (loss, because the cuteness of relic main didn’t come out and my manabase was under heavy strain. I lost game 2 because I already lost in in my mind so the game followed suit)
Goblins (win, because humility is just that good)
Conclusions for me were that the newer version of Konsultant’s 60 will be more stable for me as well. Although I won quite a few games on tolaria west I think it’s too much of an investment.
The real problem is how to address the sideboard problem.
I was thinking about the following:
Since I have quite some time to test I would like to develop a new sideboard.
Problem match-ups include:
Merfolk (on the rise again after being annihilated by Zoo in the meta)
Loam (nemesis match-up for me if there ever was one)
Goblins (not the worst match-up but since the quantity of gobs in my meta I don’t want to get caught with my pants down)
Combo (pre-board quite difficult)
Ichorid
My proposed sideboard would consist of 2-offs and maybe 1 1-off or a 3-off (I don’t know yet)
Anyway my first thought:
2 orim's chant (I think this is a VERY strong card against combo)
2 meddling mage (Combo again)
2 path to exile (copied from the master)
2 preacher (I want to test for myself what the fuss is about with this guy)
2 humility (very strong card)
2 engineered plague (tribal, ichorid)
2 relic of progenitus (ichorid, loam)
1 crucible of worlds (loam, merfolk, mirror)
Maybe this is somewhat too geared against aggro?
Zoo will become a very difficult match-up of course, but what to cut?
Ideas are welcome!
The opponents sideboarding plan frequently consists of removing all their creature removal for artifact/enchantment hate and the goyfs suit very nicely then. In the matchups where you need to be the aggressor they add some much needed speed.
Actually I only sided in the tarmogoys a bit less than half of the games, my sideboarding plan doesn't cover some of the matchups I phased.
Dropping red(except for firespout and 4:th EE colour) is actually what I am thinking aswell. Before I started tweaking the list I had alot more red cards in maindeck in which it all made sense but now the red presence is very low. A garruck seems interesting, although double green is a bit harsh.
The only problem with dropping red is dropping the little lifegain I've got in Ajani and Helix and I really feel both those saved me on some occasions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
Hi and welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qax
It looks like a good deck but I don't want to be an ass but that is not landstill its more like Ultimate Walker
700.
+1 on ultimate walker splashing fourth color for green. Seems not only inefficient but 1 veangent? Really?
The uwr splashes are more confused then that time...... (que family guy scene)
If I was going to run green at all in a deck like this or like landstill, I would go all the way and run LftL and Garruck. Really, they seem like the best reasons to run green, not goyf out of the board.
garruck in my testing was underwhelming.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
If you're going for Green, I think you should definitely look into maindeck Goyfs and Shackles, as well as CB in the sideboard. I've been messing around with this lately with a Green splash. Oddly enough, I still prefer the UWb Landstill more, mainly because it's more flexible, has a better late game and makes more dead cards for the opponent to deal with.
I've been playing around with Haunting Echoes for a few days. The look on the opponents face when it resolves might be enough reason to run it ^^ - but usually it just feels like a win-more-card. As most games it gets sided out game two.
This is the list I have been testing:
Lands 23
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
Win Cons 7
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
2 Haunting Echoes
1 Eternal Dragon (card number 61).
Spells 31
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
3 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
Sideboard 15
3 Engineered Plague
3 Counterbalance
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Extirpate
2 Path to Exile
1 Counterspells
1 Pulse of the Field
The sideboard is still a work in progress. The black mana sources have been enough to get me two black mana midgame for Haunting Echoes.
Going to take this list to a medium-sized tournament in a few weeks - unless my testing shows that Haunting Echoes is just a neat trick and nothing more. In which case I'll just switch them to Cunning Wishes instead.
Anyone with some experience with Haunting Echoes in Landstill? ^^
Haunting Echoes is only win-more because it either can't help you win (or at least help) the game while you're losing and doesn't do anything when you're being proactive. Elspeth at least makes blockers, and DoJ at least cycles so that you can draw into land.
In place of Haunting Echoes, run Fact or Fiction instead.
Preacher was intended to drastically improve two difficult match up's, Merfolk and Affinity. In all of my testing and tournament play it has done that quite effectively. I'd consider boarding him in against anything without Creature removal or perhaps as a surprise factor as most players tend to board out spot removal against us. It give's you the opportunity to try and out play your opponent with sideboarding. As Citrus God said ALWAYS put your entire sb in and take out 15 cards after EVERY SINGLE GAME. Whether you leave the preacher's in or just leave one in is up to you but it does give you the opportunity to hose your opponent if done correctly. Game 2 against canadian thresh i'd probably bring them in and if it went to game 3 i'd probably take them back out. Might try the same thing for aggro loam. If I won game one I may leave them sb and bring them in game 3. You have to make a judgment call on the fly but it does give you some "Left Field" tech to surprise them with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino
I played haunting echoes as a 1-of out of my board for about 2 tournaments and I only ever casted it once and it won me the game in turn 5 of extra time by allowing me to play standstill on top of standstill to deck my opponent. Other than that, it was too slow to be relevant and wanting double black at any point in the game just made me sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teuras
Yeah, preacher is extremely good in the matchups Geoff describes.
A search on this thread didn't return any hits for Seasinger. She seems pretty good against anything with the Stifle->Dreadnought plan. Seasinger doesn't help as much as Preacher against Affinity I suppose, but I don't really see that much (or any) Affinity where I play. Just throwing it out there.
I was about to dismiss seasinger as complete jank, but quite honestly guys, does preacher come in against anything that doesn't play islands? I mean, he's not worth it against zoo, I don't think he comes in V. Gobbos.
Still probably inferior since the deck already wants to hit WW and it does work in the random non-U matchup with little direct damage, but definitely not as bad as I first thought.
+1 for the pump by LoA. people running preacher bring him in just for the affinity/merfolk matchups too, plus you can pick what you want with this guy, i think she's worth considering for the preacher slot
Not when you're dealing with REBs. Seasinger sucks because of REBs present. Preacher, at least, works well with your mana base. Also, if they get rid of your Preacher, don't worry, you're playing against aggro. When aggro spends cards to trade with your cards, it's not that big of a deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
I think Citrus has mentioned him coming in against decks with bigger (but lower density) threats like Loam, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
It's really weird that there's a Seasinger discussion, we just talked about that card tonight as a potential card in this deck (pitches to Force? Might have potential) if Merfolk tends to be a problem.
Here's some insight to help clear things up from the one from above:
"Preacher's primary role is just as Merfolk hate, I'd consider bringing him in against any deck that didn't run creature removal, Affinity or Ichorid perhaps. Generally he sit's in the sb unless i'm playing against Merfolk." (Geoff, Master Landstiller)
Is there a reason to *not* side him in vs goblins? You could get rid of jace and some counterspells, board in paths as well and your matchup looks very favourable.
Incinerator and Warren Weirding, both are tutorable with Matron, so I don't see this happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
Every decent goblinpilot will board out Weirding. Incinerator is the only thing left, but is on it's own a very valid reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
Oh, yeah, sorry. Just woke up, not thinking clearly :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
I'd reckon most goblin pilots would board out incinerators as well :)