Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Two things at play here:
- Some people believe controll-ish midrange will be the go-to control decks in the post SDT meta.
- Some people believe that with Miracles and Terminus gone the format will somehow be good for Maverick, Jund, Junk, and all sorts of other obsolete non-blue midrange and aggro decks.
(1) Might well be true, but it by no means indicates our format will be flooded with midrange.
(2) Is absurd IMO, but there seem to be some very optimistic non-blue creature deck lovers out there in for a rude awakening.
If you have another idea why (some) people are predicting so much midrange I'd love to hear.
I too think that DRS+TNN+Snapcaster+discard will be the upcoming top dog, because losing Miracles does not affect the base power of the UBg shell, BUT it never was about Maverick or similar decks.
All people asked for was a way to build decks which didn't completely evolve around the question of how to adress Terminus and Counterbalance at the same time. If a concept can't deal with both aspects, it was outright trash. Terminus/Counterbalance was the test to pass for every deck and after almost 4 years the only "solution" seemed to be "play a fringe and clunky deck which loses against the remaining 85% of the metagame". Again, its not about Jund, Maverick or aggro decks in general, but about giving people some room to breathe/brew. Of course, if the ban of Terminus was a subtopic in the thread, people pointed to old aggro-angle archetypes which vanished over the years to possibly return in some numbers, but in no way one hinted that Jund & Co would be a top tier deck without Miracles. It's just about giving people the option to pick up and evolve these archtypes again, which wasn't possible in the solved state the format had the last 12+ months
@Claymore
That's years of TheSource on a nutshell ;)
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
BUGx TNN + Leovold. Not that Miracles stomped over that deck (in fact, Miracles had an even to unfavorable MU against them), but now that the premier "doesn't target to remove" deck is gone, TNN will become better and Leovold will nearly always draw you a card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Fixed that for you. If you want to play a format dominated by midrange, there's one that shares the first letter with the archetype.
I really am enjoying all the whining. I am ejoying less all the nonsense, but I have appreciated plenty of others have already answered.
BUGx have many awful matchups to keep it in check: lands, burn, blood-moon stompys, basically all the combos. Plus, I am expecting elves to be the biggest winner of this ban, and it's a bad matchup also.
The most fun part of the first quote though is "Leovold will nearly always draw you a card"!!!111!!! no, really?! like a Baleful Strix but costing one more mana specific coloured? We should ban Strix before it all comes down to UB deck dominating the metagame!!!
As for the midrange consideration, even if midrange strategies would become more present in the new meta (and I don't think so), it will never be like modern. I think that you haven't played many modern games, as you haven't with bug decks in legacy. The problem in that format is PRECISELY the lack of interaction between the players, the stack being irrelevant, fast combos being almost unstoppable, blue lacking real disruption... A legacy midrange mirror can't be battled on creature board presence only; plus, in legacy you will always acknowledge the presence of combos; in a few words, a legacy matchup will always feature more interaction between the players and more fun as a consequence.
As for the issue about control being or not being playable in a "hard control" mode or if it needs some form of "aggresion" (SFM, GOYF, etc). I can't see how this could be perceived as a problem by the majority of players. But I am old, and I like control, so let's say it could be a consideration for me. Well, I remember playing hard control decks where you needed to play sorcery speed sweepers, and you hadn't any way of "closing fast the match" once you were able to more-or-less stabilize the board. Two damages a turn with Mishra? Ultimating Jace? All of that in a situation where you reached a far less oppressive and soft "lock" than top-balance. And yet, it was viable.
So I can't understand why hard-control shouldn't be viable in the new meta. There are new problematic printings, true. TNN? I remember having to play with BUG Landeed against Thrun which was not only untargettable but also uncounterable. They have not printed threats only, the have also printed answers. Toxic deluge? Oh wait, you think a hard control deck can be only UW? What about Council's Judgment then. Uncounterable wraths? Yes, we have them. Why not try something new, like As Foretold plus Restore Balance. Why not play just one terminus, personal tutor, and stadstill (your opponent can't commit to the board once they see terminus, then you plowshare their EOT plus standstill. And once again they can't overcommit cause you can always brainstorm the terminus on top any moment). I'm not saying something it will work, but that something could. Of course, it won't be AS EASY as with miracle.
From a control player perspective, the big question about miracle was not only it being "oppressive" or a real (and the actual only one) tier 0. It was that its game plan was too easy. Why should you be allowed an instant speed undercosted sweeper? Why should you be allowed to close the game fast (maybe again instant speed with EOT ETA)? The real reason everybody is whining is because now if you want to play control:
[*] you'll need to go the hard way
[*] once again you'll have bad matchups.
Will a new hard-control deck be viable? I don't know. But I think it will be fun to try and test.
A thing (try and test a different hard-control deck) that we couldn't do before (if we wanted to play competitive), because there was already a better option (just play miracle) plus a downside (apart from being probably less effective against the meta, any hypotethical different control would always lose from the CB lock).
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JDK
:rolleyes:
Just so we are clear, I do not agree with the decision. However:
- I do agree it was a reasonable a defensible call.
Also, I am by no means one of the "salty" ones:
- I won't miss the match that much. It was a unique challenge, but also very taxing mentally.
- My favourite archetypes are prison, followed by combo.
- My favourite colour is :g:.
- My favourite card type is land.
- I joined just after the Mystical Tutor ban - this is the most exciting shake-up I've ever experienced.
- My enthusiasm for MTG hasn't been this high since Eldrazi Aggro arrived last year.
So I'm pretty happy right now. In fact for strictly selfish reasons I prefer the ban!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JDK
Which is funny, considering the salty ones are shouting "have fun with your midrange festival
Okay. Remember I'm responding to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Honest question. Why is it I am hearing how midrange is going to take over in a world where Tempo, Combo and Prison Control decks all exist?
I'm not sure who exactly Dice was hearing from. We can only speculate why they'd reach so preposterous an hypothesis.
We can also assume there is not a single mentality - but all kinds of notions floating around in this sea of emotions.
Yes, salty control players are reacting to the ban by venting their angst against recent (midrange pushing) design - and saying some foolish things.
Also, (formerly) salty Maverick (and) Zoo players are wetting their pants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
IAgain, its not about Jund, Maverick or aggro decks in general, but about giving people some room to breathe/brew. Of course, if the ban of Terminus was a subtopic in the thread, people pointed to old aggro-angle archetypes which vanished over the years to possibly return in some numbers, but in no way one hinted that Jund & Co would be a top tier deck without Miracles. It's just about giving people the option to pick up and evolve these archtypes again, which wasn't possible in the solved state the format had the last 12+ months
That's certainly a reasonable position.
All I'm saying is these guys talking so much about bringing back their pet decks might be causing other people to adopt the irrational fear-mongering about supposed upcoming Midrange format. Again, I don't really know who is thinking such a thing, and I can only guess at their "reasoning".
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Am I the only one who has a hunch that we'll look back at the Top ban in much the same way we look at the Mystical Tutor ban?
As in, questionable at the time, but pretty certainly right given what was later printed.
Or is everyone still salty about that ban?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Am I the only one who has a hunch that we'll look back at the Top ban in much the same way we look at the Mystical Tutor ban?
As in, questionable at the time, but pretty certainly right given what was later printed.
Or is everyone still salty about that ban?
I am salty about that reasoning for the Mystical Tutor ban, not the ban itself.
Mystical Tutor was a luring threat getting more powerful the more instants/sorceries get printed (similar to survival in terms of creatures), but pulling some bullshit about "MTGO practice room" and "gentlemens agreement" out of ones ass, will never be forgiven, especially as LaPille is still working in the Development Department.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I am salty about that reasoning for the Mystical Tutor ban, not the ban itself.
Mystical Tutor was a luring threat getting more powerful the more instants/sorceries get printed (similar to survival in terms of creatures), but pulling some bullshit about "MTGO practice room" and "gentlemens agreement" out of ones ass, will never be forgiven, especially as LaPille is still working in the Development Department.
Given that I wasn't paying much attention to Magic at the time (uni), and given that it took me forever to find the damnable thing, here's the article for anyone who's curious: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ons-2010-06-25
That was, indeed, terrible reasoning on their part.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I am salty about that reasoning for the Mystical Tutor ban, not the ban itself.
Mystical Tutor was a luring threat getting more powerful the more instants/sorceries get printed (similar to survival in terms of creatures), but pulling some bullshit about "MTGO practice room" and "gentlemens agreement" out of ones ass, will never be forgiven, especially as LaPille is still working in the Development Department.
Which is why I never read the "explanations" because they are usually just the PR pitch.
History can reveal that the spin (on the MT ban) was bogus, but the result was correct. That's fine with me.
I think time will show us this is probably another case of the same.
For all we know, there is some Miracle-esque top-deck mechanic in the future, or some other design space they are looking at.
Consider: Vizier of the Menagerie, while not really relevant to Legacy, could show an example of design space they are working into.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
The new XUG Nissa as well. Descendant's Path. Delver of Secrets. Top of the library is space they're getting into, and it just happened that Miracles busted it open with Terminus and Entreat. Top was already banned in Modern and most top of the library space is creatures, which Miracles made irrelevant. I'm curious if banning Terminus or Counterbalance would've led to some other interaction being busted enough with Top around.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I mean Brainstorm and Ponder are both still around to really help you control the top of the deck. I think it'll be fine. Also I find the current miracles thread incredibly interesting right now. It is nice to see ideas being thrown around and completely different deck lists rather than the usual of "Do I run the fourth snapcaster or fourth predict?". It Looks like the fucking Nic Fit thread in there right now of just wild west lists
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Update!
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2017-04-26
haha it's just about banning Felidar Guardian in standard. They couldn't even unban mind twist with this announcement?\
Anyway, they have serious problems going on over there. Yikes.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
^ lulz
Unrelated to that, but related to SDT. It's banned, whatevs. Can we start enforcing slow play now anyway?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
All I'm saying is these guys talking so much about bringing back their pet decks might be causing other people to adopt the irrational fear-mongering about supposed upcoming Midrange format. Again, I don't really know who is thinking such a thing, and I can only guess at their "reasoning".
I mean. I could see bringing Junk again; but I don't expect to crush combo. That's the whole thing. Every other deck in the format has to deal with bad MUs. Miracles just sidestepped all that completely by being able to run loads of basics without issue, no cards you can interact with outside of Counterbalance [while being the least targetable card type in the game], and Voila.
I don't mind playing against Storm when I'm junk. That's the luck-of-the-draw aspect of legacy. If I win it's either a testament to skill difference or an absolute luck sack. Miracles was like someone somehow managing to convince you against your will "I bet you $5 you can't ride an exercise bike for 8 hours." You can. Literally anyone can. No one wants to. But inevitably on hour 5 as you think to yourself "Why am I here..?" You think.. "Well shit! I only have 3 hours to go!"
But unlike that, the bike was rigged to fall apart at hour 7.5.
Every time.
For eternity.
Until you died.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
Wizards handling of this has been a cat-astrophe.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
Wizards handling of this has been a cat-astrophe.
So they needed 2 days to find out the amonkhet standard environment was already solved? Manglehorn was great hate both against heart of kiran as well as saheeli rai.
WOTC is seriously fucking shit up, first baning looter scooter, then emrakul, now felidar guardian. Why the fuck would you buy into a dominant deck anymore if wotc is deciding who gets to play what anyway. What a typical wotc catastrophe. I never want to hear "we only test for standard" again from wotc.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
So they needed 2 days to find out the amonkhet standard environment was already solved? Manglehorn was great hate both against heart of kiran as well as saheeli rai.
WOTC is seriously fucking shit up, first baning looter scooter, then emrakul, now felidar guardian. Why the fuck would you buy into a dominant deck anymore if wotc is deciding who gets to play what anyway. What a typical wotc catastrophe. I never want to hear "we only test for standard" again from wotc.
The interesting thing is that going by what they said, they barely test for Standard either. They do test for it, but given the numbers of people they have on any given format it's just not possible to test much. Think about how much iterative development they have going on at a time. Then consider that any given format can only be tested for 3 months (since that's their release schedule). I strongly suspect they only get 10 rounds in with the final version of a format.
That's why their current set design philosophy is so screwed up. Remember Innistrad? It had a strong graveyard theme, yet preceding it put Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction, and Nihil Spellbomb into Standard. During it we got Grafdiggers Cage and several pieces of exile based removal. After it we got Ground Seal, Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman, and Scavenging Ooze. That's a lot of safety valves for a format, and it allowed people to interact when GY's were an issue. But current set design has totally abandoned that philosophy. They push removal later into a format to let a sets mechanics shine, and they started pushing mechanics which simply don't work in the face of removal. Heroic? Eldrazi? Devotion? These mechanics wither and die in a world where basic cards like Doom Blade exist. Wizards started screwing up years ago, and this is what happens after going down that path. Formats need safety valves, and a lot of them. Wizards removed them all in order to push a few creatures.
The greatest irony of it all? Because Legacy/Modern aren't iterative, they would actually be easier to test for.
Edit: Going to make a called shot. They said they aren't testing the planeswalker decks either. There's about to be 3 legal Gideons in Standard for that dumb emblem, as well as a spell that tutors for planeswalkers. People can concievably run a 16 Gideon deck, so that they can't lose the game, and back that up with board wipes and so on. I bet a ban happens here too.. all because yet again, they didn't test the cards they're adding to the format or include any safety valves.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
So they needed 2 days to find out the amonkhet standard environment was already solved? Manglehorn was great hate both against heart of kiran as well as saheeli rai.
WOTC is seriously fucking shit up, first baning looter scooter, then emrakul, now felidar guardian. Why the fuck would you buy into a dominant deck anymore if wotc is deciding who gets to play what anyway. What a typical wotc catastrophe. I never want to hear "we only test for standard" again from wotc.
I blew a couple thousand dollars on Standard before I started playing Legacy, and all I can say is that they really don't learn from their mistakes.
Every Standard iteration has its dominant deck. They can't change that, and the fact that they devote so much energy to doing so indicates that their priorities are not at all aligned with attainable goals or a realistic understanding of how the game works outside the testing room.
Regarding Standard, from my perspective, never again.
Regarding the philosophy of the Standard—and Legacy—bans, they indicate that popular opinion (important though it is for their continued attainment of a profit margin) is more important than an analysis of what's right and wrong with the game. Modern bans have long evinced this, but it's reaching the point that I can't think of a valid argument for their having any other concern but their bottom line.
[EDIT: Opposed though I am to bans of any kind, I am glad Miracles took a hit, though I'd have been much happier had the hit not been one with collateral damage.]
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
So they needed 2 days to find out the amonkhet standard environment was already solved? Manglehorn was great hate both against heart of kiran as well as saheeli rai.
WOTC is seriously fucking shit up, first baning looter scooter, then emrakul, now felidar guardian. Why the fuck would you buy into a dominant deck anymore if wotc is deciding who gets to play what anyway. What a typical wotc catastrophe. I never want to hear "we only test for standard" again from wotc.
Is Thalia Heretic out of standard already? I figured she'd fix the problem [although being in the same colors as the combo isn't helpful lol]
It's kinda funny that this particular combo is actually *faster* than the copy-enchantment they banned [sort of. you had to untap with your killer]
Re: All B/R update speculation.
This is WOTC's chickens coming home to roost, I'm enjoying it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
Is Thalia Heretic out of standard already? I figured she'd fix the problem [although being in the same colors as the combo isn't helpful lol]
It's kinda funny that this particular combo is actually *faster* than the copy-enchantment they banned [sort of. you had to untap with your killer]
Flash makes that last bit mostly irrelevant.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
I blew a couple thousand dollars on Standard before I started playing Legacy, and all I can say is that they really don't learn from their mistakes.
Every Standard iteration has its dominant deck. They can't change that, and the fact that they devote so much energy to doing so indicates that their priorities are not at all aligned with attainable goals or a realistic understanding of how the game works outside the testing room.
I disagree with this. While it is true most Standard environments do have one deck that takes up a noticeably bigger metagame share than the rest, there are exceptions. Innistrad-RTR, for example, was actually a quite diverse Standard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
Is Thalia Heretic out of standard already? I figured she'd fix the problem [although being in the same colors as the combo isn't helpful lol]
Thalia is still Standard legal. Sees a ton of play, too; MTG Top 8 says it's in 31.3% of decks.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
What the actual fuck? Can't they analyze data BEFORE their regular B&R announcement? Does this mean they can now ban/unban stuff whenever the fuck they please by a Steve Jobs memorial dick move of "Oh, I barely forgot one more thing..."?
On the ban itself:
Of course it was a ban as a result of their obvious, non existing testing and of course ot was a combo deck which gets neutered. WotC is just off the hooks with their bans in Standard in a 3-6 month cycle while Legacy takes 3 years and a sign on their parking lot to actually notice that something is off
