[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rust

any help on maindeck choices that would help against aggro?

---

See the post directly above yours. It depends on what aggro specifically, but 5-6 maindeck removal (some combination of Go for the Throat, Dismember, Smother, and Ghastly Demise) with 2 Deed in the board, 1-3 more spot removal of the same kind you already have in the main, and/or 2-3 Perish or Submerge and you're going to do pretty well against most aggro.

The deck does pretty well against most non-aggro decks, so it's not out of the question to just load up the board with creature hate for various aggro matchups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zilla

See the post directly above yours. It depends on what aggro specifically, but 5-6 maindeck removal (some combination of Go for the Throat, Dismember, Smother, and Ghastly Demise).

---

I like 1-2 copies of Snuff Out mixed in to help with tempo during the early game. I also agree with you about the possibility of running Ghasly Demise maindeck - it does seem better now that misstep is gone.

So in the post-MMS world is Snuff Out or Dismember better for us?

I used to prefer snuff out but then I switched to dismember and up until now I didn't think id ever go back. However post ban snuff outs tempo boost may be more relevant and the life loss less so. Also if counter balance returns then snuff out would most likely be the better choice, unless of course we see a proliferation of TA that is :)

Yeah, I'm just expecting a lot of Team America mirror matches in the future. I'd rather my 4-slots all be able to hit Tombstalker and Bob.

Don't forget that Dismember might kill a resolved Magus of the Moon. I prefer Dismember, sometimes you just cast it and its fine, doesn't get blocked by Teeg either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theonlyone

Does T.A. beat Stoneblade? Is the version of gerry Thompson with dark confidant still viable?

---

This question does not make a lot of sense because we don't know yet how stoneblade evolves. In the MM area the matchup wsa problematic because hymn was not a really good card, due to man longer games.
My prediction is that TA will have a better matchup versus the new stoneblad or countertop, because thoughtseize, hymn, stifle got a lot better and Krosan Grip will help.

However every game will be a fight and TA is a very skill intensive deck. Takes a lot of practice and thinking to play it correctly (I know because I am still learning...)!

A version running dark confidant is a different approach that goes more into the direction of BUG control. Since Stifle makes a big comeback, we are all excited to run the tempo version of the deck with a 5/5 flyer for BB.

Concerning Liliana:

I did not test too much so far, but I cast Liliana 5 Times. (2 times in Mirror, 1 Goblins, 1 Rock, 1 monoblack): It resulted in 3 wins and 2 scoops. On 4 of this 5 occasions I would not have been able to cast Jace. All 5 times I started with -2.

All situations were similar: Either close to an empty board or i also had a creature to protect her. I never had her in a situation where I was far behind where the opponent had 2 or more creatures than I had. In this case I guess also Jace does get us out too often, but she is at least a 3 mana sorcery speed edict/prevent x damage.

There were 2 situations where I had like 3 good cards and the opponent 1 or 2 cards, where I did not want to +1 her. That was kind of awkward - not sure if this situations will hurt in the future.

Problems I have with my build now is that I love thoughtseize, hymn, liliana, tombstalker and I am running out of blue cards. How low do you go with the blue card count postboard if you want to board out daze/stifle for removal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catmint

Problems I have with my build now is that I love thoughtseize, hymn, liliana, tombstalker and I am running out of blue cards. How low do you go with the blue card count postboard if you want to board out daze/stifle for removal?

---

It really depends on the matchup, but for example in the Merfolk matchup I usually board out Force of Will so blue count doesn't matter. The only card they have that is of major concern is Back to Basics, and most lists don't seem to have been running it lately anyways. 16 is about the limit of how low you can go to somewhat reliably have a blue card to pitch, and if you're keeping in Daze, Ponder, Brainstorm, and FoW you should be good to go. Stifle is often the first to get boarded out, depending on the matchup.

And yes, I agree about Liliana being a bomb. I'm not sure yet if she should be run as a 1 or 2 of.

Boarding out FOW is not out of the question. In most matchups where you are boarding in a lot of removal it might be right, though it sounds like ppl in this thread are playing much more removal maindeck and far fewer blue cards than I usually do.
In the misstep era, FOW was routinely one of the worst cards to draw for me, I was definitely considering cutting down to 3 maindeck, just because I got stranded with 1 in my hand so often. But now it will probably get much better.
Dismember vs. snuff out: The upside of dismember is that it can kill dark confidant and tombstalker (and magus of the moon I suppose). Snuff out can kill a lacky with more reliability (if you had to brainstorm into it for instance) and can kill a tarmogoyf/knight/random fattie more reliably. It's a judgment call, but overall I think dismember is a bit better. Having whichever you don't play main in your SB seems reasonable.

Thanks for the advice on FoW. I guess we have to deal with some killer spells like back to basics/choke,... resolving if we load on removal versus creature decks. I think a build with 21 blue cards that can go down to 16-17 leaving FoW in sounds reasonable.

How do you play with Stifle/Daze/wasteland on the draw? Do you usually board out some stifle/daze or do you leave all dazes in if mana-denial is an important plan?

How do you feel about Null Rod. I love that card versus storm, affinity, forgemaster, CB-Top. HOwever I have not tested it versus vial decks. Do you have experience?

I love Null Rod, but it doesn't do anything against Vial decks. Don't worry about the vial, just let them take the card disadvantage from playing it and try to kill their creatures. Bring in Deed or EE to and let killing the Vial be incidental.

Daze comes out on the draw a lot of the time, Stifle depends on the deck. Against zoo, for example, stifle might come out on the draw, but only if that doesn't completely kill your blue count (or if you're pulling Forces), because you don't really have anything to do with stifle other than stop fetches. Against affinity or a jace deck, on the other hand, stifle does a lot of good lategame stuff so you can keep it in.

I never cared much for null rod. Vs. vial decks it's not worth it, vs. storm I think the discard/counterspell plan is better, vs. affinity deed and EE are enough, don't know what forgemaster so it can probably be handled without it, and cb top I'd rather have krosan grip or pithing needle or something.

Sometimes I board out daze on the draw but not that often actually. It's still pretty good imo even on the draw and there are often cards I want to board out more. Stifle is bad against some decks but it's good vs. a fair amount as well. I actually like it vs. zoo since that + wasteland can really hamper them. They're 3 colors and they also need certain lands for their cats and apes.

Usually stifle and daze are a package that i take out in particular matchups where i want to be control rather than tempo. It is rare that i do it play/draw dependant though i can see it being relevant in some matchups (Junk and zoo come to mind as matchups where tempo is viable on the play but awfull on the draw)

Here's the list I sleeved up and tested a few games with tonight:


4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island / Bayou

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember

SB:
2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Submerge
2 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt

It worked fine, for me. Some of the slots are definitely debateable, however;

* Spell Pierce: Is a godsend against some decks, it helped me hold back NO against RUG, but it was pointless against Vial aggro. I feel that, despite any real amount of testing, that this should probably either be more than a 2-of, or it should be cut completely, it's a bad topdeck late-game, and though the 10 permission spells are needed against some decks, Spell Pierce does not help out a lot against cheap removal (i.e. Swords to Plowshares, Dismember etc.)

* Jace 2: He was an absolute bomb in a couple of the games where I resolved him on about even boardstate, even just holding off blockers to get in for the last few points with Goyf is great against some decks. His versatility makes me want to play him, but I'm not too sure just yet.

* The removal suite: I still haven't quite decided on what to use, Demise answers T1 Lackey, Mom, Hierarch and a bunch of other problematic creatures, but does nothing against others, like Bob or opposing Tombstalkers. Losing a game to Bob sucks, because the deck only has two outs against it, bar Counterspells, obviously. Go for the Throat could fix that, and 2 GftT, 2 Dismember could be fine, but I'm scared of losing to Goblins too often. Demise is cheap, elegant and it gets the job done most of the time, so I think I'll stick by it for now. Dismember is a house, and probably my favourite removal spell since Smother got printed way back in Onslaught.

* Only 20 lands: Despite running a rather low number of lands, comparing this list to the more controlish BUG lists, and despite the fact that I have Jace, I don't think that the number of lands is really an issue, Stifle can protect my lands from Wasteland, and it's just as much of a time walk as stifling a fetch, and the 8 cantrips can work to find extra lands if needed. The manascrews are there, sure, but they are quite rare, and in the last six months of playing the deck with only 19 lands, I think I felt more maybe thrice.


Overall, I'm very happy with this list for now, and I think that the tempo variant is the way to go post-MM, if the metagame speeds up. I don't have time to diddle around with Bob, flipping Tombstalkers and FoWs when my opponents is burning me out.

For your list, I would try:

-2 Jace
+2 Sylvan Library

Landing Sylvan on turn 2/3 puts the game in easy mode. Jace is way too slow against most decks, and is only really good in certain midrange and control matchups. Sylvan is pretty much universally awesome. Getting to four mana when you're also using/playing against Wasteland and Daze is nigh impossible in the post-Misstep world. I predict that there will also be a lot more Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, and other miscellaneous aggro decks running around, in which case Jace is mostly going to just sit in your hand looking dumb.

That said, Jace is still worth fitting in the SB as a 2/3-of. I just don't think he's as universally good as Library.

Also, I don't see the point in playing the Clique over the 4th Tombstalker. I can somewhat understand Clique being the 9th creature, but even that slot is iffy. So I would also go

-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Tombstalker

Regarding your mana base: Don't play the basic island. It's not going to bail you out of trouble, and you're going to lose more games from it mana screwing you than you are because your opponent had triple wasteland. Either use a Bayou or the 9th fetchland.

Spell Pierce isn't a bad idea, but I think it's better as a sideboard card. I would play something that's relevant in nearly every matchup, at least in the main:

-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Maelstrom Pulse (or 1 Pulse, 1 Liliana of the Veil)

Pulse is a card that bails you out of random situations (eg. your opponent is playing some sort of obnoxious control deck and lands Ensnaring Bridge, or Belcher is able to get 20 tokens on their second turn, etc..) At worst, it's a sorcery speed creature removal -- often your first two turns are going to be spent playing other cards anyways, not dealing with a resolved creature. You can sometimes randomly 2-for-1 with it as well.

You don't think 1 island is good so you can fetch and brainstorm when your opponent leads with a wasteland? Sometimes I just like the option of 1 basic land in the event my opponent has an open wasteland.

I play online. With the banning of MM, High Tide is back in full-swing. I played a game and won in 3, but mostly due to my opponent's unlucky drawing in the final game. I have a question about boarding in Leyline of the Void against High Tide. I didn't do it in this game, but I think it might be a very viable option, as High Tide needs the recurrence from Time Spiral and exiling his High Tides and other spells could stop him in his tracks.

Here is my list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Island (used to play 4 UGS, but changed to 1 Island for reasons stated above)

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Dismember
1 Pernicious Deed

SB:
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Perish
3 Thoughseize

So, out come the Edicts and Dismembers, in go 3 Thoughseizes and a Deed. I put the 2 Deeds in for Candelabra, and in the 3rd game, I ended up hitting 2 of them, plus it gave 'Goyf a nice boost.
My question is, should I drop 2 Deed and 2 Jace for Leyline or maybe even 2 Deed and 2 Tombstalker? In one of the games, I had active Jace, which was very nice and fatesealing him bought me time. With Against Time Spiral, it is nice to have your FOW recycled and eating them all up to Tombstalker hurts your chances of drawing them in your new 7 (on the flip side, it's nice to eat up fetch lands, etc.). Also, when your opponent Time Spirals, Goyf goes to 0/1, but is usually back up to at least a 2/3 because your opponent is going to cast instants and sorceries with their freshly untapped land and new hand. Thoughts on Leyline? It just kind of occurred to me while boarding for game 3 and I wasn't confident enough in my decision to make the switch, but it may be a powerful card to have. Thoughts?

I actually played against High Tide a lot with this deck before Misstep was printed, since there are 4 players at my local shop with it. I found a few things

- Leyline of the Void doesn't cut it, because you'll never get to cast it before they go off, and having it in your opener only really provides quite marginal advantage. On the other hand, Extirpate is great in this matchup, because you can extirpate the first high tide, and that's really the only spell you care about getting rid of. I also think Extirpate is better in this deck than Leyline, because you run enough draw that you can find it eventually by the time you need it, but you don't have to mulligan to it in order to win. It also buys you a sideboard slot because you only really need 3, where you need 4 leylines
- Killing Candelabra isn't worth it. They'll always get one untap out of it, which is usually enough, although obviously they'd rather get multiples, it's still pretty good value if it buys a card and you're holding cards to kill it. Plus if they expect you have removal for it, they'll just hold it until turn 4 and play it as they go off.
- Thoughtseize is amazing. You really have to kill their ability to get going, which isn't too difficult. If you're lucky you'll get to thoughtseize after they merchant scroll on T2 and take their meditate or high tide.
- If you're definitely going to face the matchup, find room in your sideboard for Dispel. This may have changed since Flusterstorm was printed, but pre-misstep Dispel was the best board card I found for them, and I suspect it's still pretty good, it just depends on how many flusterstorms they may or may not have.


So with your current list, I'd turn the 4 leylines into 3 Extirpates and a Dispel, then bring in 3 thoughtseizes, 3 extirpates, 1 dispel, and cut 2 Jace, 2 Dismember, 2 Edict, and 1 Deed. Obviously that'll change once your list evolves without misstep, but it's a place to start.

Also, re: land. With only 20 lands, you simply can't afford to run the basic island, no matter how much you might want it occasionally against a wasteland. You need to be able to run the entire deck on 2 or maybe 3 lands, and the ability to cast Hymn to Tourach on turn 2 is pretty vital. The number of times I lose to an opponent's wasteland is going to be less than the number of times I draw that stupid island and then can't cast my black spells when I need them. I say this not based off of theory, but off of extensive testing.

Great Point on the extripate. I'm running 22 land. I've gone both ways (4 UGS vs. 3 UGS and 1 Island). I like your point about 3rd turn Hymn and wcm8's point about the games you face 3 wastelands is not going to equal the games you mana screw yourself. One other point about basics lands is PTE, I realize kind of a moot point due to the fact that I want to get it first turn to prevent wasteland, but can be nice and that regard (and against Price of Progress). Anyway, food for thought, but probably not worth cutting the 3rd UGS.

Thanks for your comments!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wcm8

For your list, I would try:

-2 Jace
+2 Sylvan Library

Landing Sylvan on turn 2/3 puts the game in easy mode. Jace is way too slow against most decks, and is only really good in certain midrange and control matchups. Sylvan is pretty much universally awesome. Getting to four mana when you're also using/playing against Wasteland and Daze is nigh impossible in the post-Misstep world. I predict that there will also be a lot more Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, and other miscellaneous aggro decks running around, in which case Jace is mostly going to just sit in your hand looking dumb.

That said, Jace is still worth fitting in the SB as a 2/3-of. I just don't think he's as universally good as Library.

Also, I don't see the point in playing the Clique over the 4th Tombstalker. I can somewhat understand Clique being the 9th creature, but even that slot is iffy. So I would also go

-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Tombstalker

Regarding your mana base: Don't play the basic island. It's not going to bail you out of trouble, and you're going to lose more games from it mana screwing you than you are because your opponent had triple wasteland. Either use a Bayou or the 9th fetchland.

Spell Pierce isn't a bad idea, but I think it's better as a sideboard card. I would play something that's relevant in nearly every matchup, at least in the main:

-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Maelstrom Pulse (or 1 Pulse, 1 Liliana of the Veil)

Pulse is a card that bails you out of random situations (eg. your opponent is playing some sort of obnoxious control deck and lands Ensnaring Bridge, or Belcher is able to get 20 tokens on their second turn, etc..) At worst, it's a sorcery speed creature removal -- often your first two turns are going to be spent playing other cards anyways, not dealing with a resolved creature. You can sometimes randomly 2-for-1 with it as well.

---

Good points, some food for thought indeed.

On Sylvan Library: I have tried it a while ago, before MM was printed, and I didn't like it. I tried it with MM in the deck and found that in between MM, FoW, fetches, Dismember etc., I was usually on too low life to make something worthwile out of the Library, other than just having it filter my draws. It might be worth testing it again, but I couldn't get around the initial card disadvantage, though it might be good against control decks.

On Vendilion Clique: I used to run 4 Goyfs, 4 Stalkers, 1 Clique, and cut one of the Stalkers now to fit some other stuff in (specifically the 20th land), I kept the Clique over the fourth Stalker, simply because drawing multiple Stalkers is often very awkward. Clique is also an evasive threat and it pitches to FoW, and so on.

On basic Island: Yes, I know, and I put Bayou slashed in there as well. The reason that I play an Island is simply that I don't own either a second Bayou or a Verdant Catacombs yet, but I plan on adding another Bayou as soon as I can hunt one down.

On Maelstrom Pulse: I haven't really tested it much, when I did I found the Sorcery speed and the mana cost of it awkward. It could be worth testing it, it's a much better topdeck late-game than Spell Pierce (except against opposing Tarmogoyfs :)).