I think Noble is also really good right now. Winning the Batterskull standoff is pretty sweet. Sure, it does get Misstepped, but then I also don't have to keep a land heavy hand.
-Matt
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I think Noble is also really good right now. Winning the Batterskull standoff is pretty sweet. Sure, it does get Misstepped, but then I also don't have to keep a land heavy hand.
-Matt
Submerge is definitely bad news for us, but it's not the end of the world. Playing around it by not having forests in play is akin to switching to B/W Deadguy because you're afraid of Merfolk. It's not worth cutting your own mana base off to avoid 1 card in their SB.
Also, who says most people are dropping Mox Diamonds from the lists? Sure, I've given it some thought, but like most of the Top 8 performers recently, I still think it's necessary to give us an unfair start on occasion. Last night vs. NO RUG I had a nasty start on the play with 2x Thoughtseize on Turn 1. (His hand was Brainstorm, Force, Natural Order, Hierarch, Progenitus, 2x Land = I took Brainstorm and Natural Order :smile:) Arguably, the FOW could have been a better grab than the Natural Order, since the best that could have grabbed him was a Goyf at that point, but I was playing it safe. Either way, his hand was destroyed and I went on to win after keeping a Bob down for a few turns.
I don't think now is the time to be dropping Moxen necessarily. Maybe if youare playing Mystics or GSZ, those Tutor packages take up too much space in the deck to justify Moxen, but All the lists I've seen online recently are still putting the :0: Artifact to good work.
Here's my current list, not much changed from last time I posted:
Creatures (14)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage
Instants (8)
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries (10)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Living Wish
2 Life from the Loam
Artifacts (3)
2 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands (25)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Maze of Ith
Sideboard
1 Dark Depths
1 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Shriekmaw
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Extirpate
I don't have 3 Moxen at the moment, otherwise I'd probably play 3. They fix your mana and keep you aggressive, which has always been a strength of Junk's. Having the Top doesn't hurt in that regard though.
I'm starting to like Misstep even more. It gives you the option of Tempo in the early game, or protection in the case that you get the combo off. I'm still on the fence, and considering adding Hymn back in, but I don't like the idea of having 16+ 2-drops, it makes the curve very awkward. Misstep is awesome because it effectively lowers your curve by 2 in that slot, and it pairs well with Thoughtseizes and Swords to Plowshares to create strong tempo plays.
The sideboard is probably a little overkill, but it does have answers for nearly everything. It needs a Thrun, the Last Troll, probably in place of the Gatekeeper or Kataki. I'd also like to squeeze in another Duress effect to make Extirpate better, but then I feel like I should just run Hymns main in that case.
sdematt, what does your current Stoneforge list look like? I'm curious to see what you've got brewing on that side of the Junk spectrum...
My current list looks like...
23/24 lands
3 Noble Hierarch (it's been quite good. More bodies for Sword, Exalted wins Batterskull war, etc.)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
17
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sensei's Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Smother
1 Putrefy
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (the best Sword in the world, atm)
It's been doing pretty well, but you're losing against Hive Mind much of the time. HM have Leyline in the board makes it also that much tougher. If I had to win against HM today, I'd board/shoehorn in at least another Hymn, and perhaps 1-2 Duress, along with Grace and Extirpate in the board. You also need Grip in the board for Batterskull/Crucible/shenanigans, Tariff/Perish/Retribution/Metamorph for Emrakul/Progen, Deed for Folk/Zoo, Thrun for Stoneblade/Zoo. With your amount of creatures, you should be able to beat RUG.
-Matt
Cool. Yeah, my board has a good amount of answers for most decks, but I'm pretty cold to Hive Mind and certain U/W Control builds at the moment. Also, while I like Living Wish and the variety of board answers, I'm more used to the traditional Sideboards with 2, 3, and 4-ofs. It's part of the reason I like DraftMasterJ's decklist I posted above. His board was:
2 Choke
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Angel's Grace
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Perish
And he runs the full playset of Hymns main. Much more traditional Junk, with the Depths plan being less prominent (and less consistent). I might lean back toward that style list at some point, but for now I'm sticking with the Wishes.
Ran a version that has both Mystic and GSZ alongside Elspeth. May seem like too much but it's working out well so far. More testing later this weekend. Currently 3-1 in sanctioned events.
Zoo, win 2-0: Non-Issue. Snuffout solved a lot of the issues here.
TES, win 2-1: Game 3 he mulled to 4. Game 2 I raced.
Puresteel Aggro (?!) - Loss 1-2: Loss due to terribly poor play on my part, lack of SoLS (which is supposed to be in the board but was not available at the time), as well as a 1 land keep (which didn't yield a second land until after I had lost).
UW - 2-0: Both games vs UW out of their control by turn 4. Either via bob(s) or tempo advantage.
Dropping to 1 Goyf in favor of third Mystic (Package currently 2m/2e). Spore Frog and Pridemage in the main have been more than pulling their weight. Dismember is being looked at over Snuffout. Still not sure if I like not having the BoP available as a GSZ target but I'd rather not sub it in for a Goyf.
I would write you a report but when I started I realized I was mixing up games. So, instead you get the abridged version.
What's your current list?
-Matt
I've seen Spore Frog in a few lists recently. I can see the value of a tutorable fog effect but...does this only merit a slot because of GSZ package?
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seems Good
I wouldn't play 2-4 of them unless I needed the fog effects. and if I needed them that bad, have already exhausted my Moment's Peace slots (and maybe that fallen empire fog creature since it get's better in multiples), and Can't get another deck to play... I'll let to format rotate while I save my money to get cards to make another deck.
But, if you're going to play a card, why no use it. Zenith and other tutors are good for exactly that reason. You can do a lot with them. The Frog is one card. I have a 7/60 chance of it being in my opener (Best case) and the odds get better as the game goes longer... unless I have a top. So I don't have to worry about drawing it very ofter (in these last 8 matches I've drawn it twice...ish). So it's not really hurting anything.
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08-13-11
Went 3-0-1 today with Similar List. Swapped 1 Snuffout and 1 crucible for 2 Dismembers and had the SoLS for the board.
Round 1 vs Hivemind (interesting deck... fragile, but interesting)
He misplays and doesn't see that he can play the the second Hive Mind in his hand and then Red Pact. I can't pay for both copies. He thinks about it after. We decide that my play that turn was more incorrect. I had an active Large knight and decided to play elspeth and jump the knight at him instead of TS his hand which would have taken the pact and removed all possibility of a loss (He would've had 1 card in hand).
Game 2, I force all of his pacts out of his hand and eventually pulse a hivemind (losing a Knight) and continuing to apply pressure.
We played a couple games afterwards and came to the conclusion that, this isn't a bad match-up for most decks with TS.
Round 2 vs Team America (non tempo version... ie Cliques Goyfs and Bobs)
I stick a bob and kill his... Bob Cards him out of the game backed by a knight.
Game 2, He takes out 1 of my 2 lands after killing bob... His deck doesn't draw enough threats (since I offed his bob) before I draw another land (like 10 turns later). I take over the game and he scoops.
Round 3 vs Aggro Loam (it's not that this match is hard, it just requires a lot of thinking)
Game 1 I Roll him over. Not even close. *Remembering an argument that this was a bad match-up. do you? I know you're reading this. I'll leave your name out of it. ;)
Game 2 We go back and forth for a little while. I'm about 50% of the way to the end of my deck and still haven't seen any type of yard hate. He lands a Assault with loam in hand. I have 1 turn to draw an out... Nothing. He 10's me with assault on his turn putting me to 0.
Game 3 This game went the distance. Good notice (finally starting to play like I used to) against a Crusher trigger going into a Pulse vs my Goyf+Stoneforge hand... I read the crusher to confirm I get to do stuff and before his draw extirpate his cycle land (which hits one in hand). I pass the deck back, he thinks I shuffled his deck and I forget that I didn't cut it. Luckily we are reminded from the people watching that we have to shuffle. (This is a friend and the prizes are packs... don't think he was being shady). We are on turn 3 of time. He's at 4 life, I'm past my swing. I'm at 9. My board is 8 lands, Top, Bob, and Arbor vs 4/4 Crusher (tapped). I have a pulse in the yard. He's got a Goyf (known from Crusher) in hand and 2 lands and a Diamond. I, Look top, Draw-top, Resolve draw, fetch, look. I drew a known witness to get back a pulse from the yard. The Top look shows me: Elspeth, Snuff out, Extirpate... for some reason, I put the worst option on top... Snuffout. He doesn't attack since it means that I just kill his Goyf and win (he assumes I put a land on top, little does he know I put a 4cc snuff out up there!). I take 4, play Elspeth and he scoops.
Round 4 Vs Lands (Don't think this is a bad match-up either... We split before we start)
I first turn a mystic, Turn 2 a Knight... Tell him I have a Bog, wastes, Witness, Stronghold, and a Zenith (in hand). He plays about 2 turn more until I explain how I can recur my Bog using those cards. Set myself back to make his gameplan dead? ANYTIME.
Game 2, I have double knight up. No Zenith, Bog's in the deck somewhere but the top will make sure I don't hit it. the deck shows him that no deck is invincible. He scoops 'em up and we go do other things in the sunlight (Temp 80F and sunny low humidity... to The BEACH! *With 10,000 lakes we have them all over).
...Another tournament tomorrow... may make a report.
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08-14-11
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Another day... not really a tournament. Only 6 people showed up to a store offering money... I convinced everyone to play, prizes went 40-20. Changes were simple again, +1 mystic, +1 Extirpate, -1 Goyf, -1 Crucible.
Round 1 vs UW... (Again. Games go a little longer that turn 4 this time.)
First one fine. He's on the back foot the entire game due to Elspeth. His Factories and Jace couldn't stop my singleton Goyf (I know, some of you are going to rip into that... don't worry, It could have been a Squire) from jumping him in the face.
Game 2 - He ended up killing my team and playing a standstill... So I put Dryad Arbor on top with Stronghold. Next turn I hookup sword. Pass, and start swinging.
Round 2 vs BUGstill (really, another drawn out blue deck?!)
I run his hand into the ground forcing him to use Force and then discarding. Knight Finishes the job alongside some little buddies (Arbor and soldier token).
Game 2 he kills my only creature and wastes my land (wow this seems familiar)... He plays it out for a while and then realizes that my Top is keeping me in the game. When I finally get a couple more lands, I kill his only creature (little bugger beat me to 10!) and choke him out. He's got 2 lands active and I play a knight... then GSZ for a second. and waste his black source. He edicts me... and scoops. No land vs 11/11 Knight isn't exactly what we call a winning situation.
We split in the finals and put 10 back into the pot for the others. Total record 8-1-1. Next tournament is Wednesday, don't think I'll be there but maybe the Thursday event... we'll see.
I now have 2 weeks off for vacation, so I'll be posting on here more regularly. Let's get posting some lists!
So where do you guys see the meta going? Richmond SCG was a bit of a joke (Show and Tell? Meh). I mean, we have Swords, so Blightsteel going Through the Breech is a bit of a flash in the pan, I think.
I'm in favour of a bit more disruption. Are you guys seeing Stoneblade still pretty active?
-Matt
Hi, I'm the one who top 8ed Richmind with the Junk Depths deck. After playing with it I really feel as that is the direction this deck needs to go. The old lists were really just a Deadguy list with moxes and green dudes. Now that everyone has stoneforge our advantage is gone and the new angle of attack is really powerful. Most of the time in the tournament people were just countering my hexmages and living wishes because they were scared of just dying. I only insta-killed a few times in the tournament because I would just beat down with goyfs, bobs, and knights or just wastelanded them a buncha times and it was never really a game.
Also, being able to living wish for a goyf and wasteland was awesome. Looking back I know I should have done that more often than just trying to make 20/20s.
I feel like I have the same issue when running the Depths version. I have this whole wishboard, but the combo could just win, and so I have a problem seeing past that to recognize what might be a better play.
I think the whole thing is that it gives you a clock. The reason why NO RUG and NO Bant are so good? They have a 2-turn clock once Progenitus is in play. Here, you essentially have a one-turn clock.
Congrats on your finish! I'm glad some version of junk is making it to the finals. I think you can still do well nowadays without this version, but I think just having the ability to go into end-the-game mode is pretty good.
Did you ever use Hexmage to nuke a Jace?
-Matt
Once, but the only reason that happened was because my opponent made a bad play. Usually they just wont play jace if you have 2 guys, but If your only creature is the hexmage than they cant play their Jace there anyways. And you're right about the combo, its more or less just there. I really only use it when I draw well and hit it.
i would love to see your list Derayler, would you mind posting here in this thread so everyone can take a look?
i myself moved back to the more traditional build similar to the one in the opener, since it suited my playstyle better, and i did not really like the wishboard in the junk/dephts version, since i had exactly the same problem as everyone else, to not really be able to choose what to get
but lately i have seen a lovely loam/junk/dephts hybrid without the wishboard, that seemed really powerful
the deck was posted by f|i[p]
29 MAna
4 mox
3 bayou
1 scrub
1 savannah
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
1 plains
1 swamp
1 forest
4 wasteland
1 karakas
1 horizon canopy
1 urborg
1 maze of ith
1 volraths stronghold
2 dark depths
14 creatures
4 dark confidant
4 knight of reliquary
3 tarmogoyf
3 vampire hexmage
4 chalice of the void
2 smother
2 go for the throat
3 vindicate
2 engineered explosives
3 loam
1 sylvan library
1 worm harvest
what do you guys think of this approach? the only thing that disturbes me a bit is the loss of hymn in the mainboard, and i find chalice a bit odd but powerful, but loosing THE best removelspell sucks a bit
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=40387
My list was a 75 card mirror of Brian Boss's list. The only thing I might change is the wish board. Kataki seemed cool, but affinity isnt really a deck. That spot could probably turn into a phyrexian metamorph. Other than that your tuning would be very metagame dependent I think. The six SB non-wish cards are for combo. Other than that I dont really even SB. At most I take out loams when they are really terrible, but they are usually pretty good. I cant really give too much thought on this deck because I'm not really a legacy player and that was my first legacy event with more than 10 ppl.
For that decklist you posted, steve, I've always been a fan of 4 color loam so to me trying to cut red for the hexmage combo will make your deck much weaker. Because to able to go off reliably you have to have a knight, a hexmage, and pray they dont have a wasteland or any removal. Plus if they have a Karakas in their deck it can get akward quick.
well the deck is not mine ;P
i just wanted to say it could work that way as well
i would actually much rather play hymn to tourach in the hexmage slot because that card is one of the best in the whole format
in place of chalice i would prefer thoughtseize because i just love seeing opponents hand on first turn
and if chalice is removed we get Sword to plowshares back
1 loam 1 worm harvest and the sylvan library would be divining tops in the list i would run, even though i have to say worms harvest seems extremely powerful to me, and would perform extremely well as an adictional threat allthough that slot could also be a 1-off elspeth, which i would actually prefer
acutally for the list i posted, i asked f|i[p] what purpose the hexmage-dephts combo in his deck had, because it seemed not well protected
he told me it was merely a plan B, since the deck was not so fixated on the combo as the living wish lists might be
he also told me that the opponent rarely thinks he would see the hexmage-combo in a junk-deck if living wish is not played, so the combo was often a blowout the opponent did not expect
I almost want to play Dark Depths as a one-of in a Junk/Loam hybrid, just to scare my opponents, but then play no Hexmage :)
-Matt
I am trying out one depths and 3 hexmages in a stoneforge build. I have 4 knights to get the dark depths at any point, any the hexmages are just extra bodies to carry a sword. Plus they deal with Jace. Basicly the deck packs few answers, but it attacks from several angles with stoneforge, discard, knight and hexmage combo. I will return to this thread when I get to play some more games with it.
Just some thoughts...
Regarding my deck list I brought to a 100+ player tournament, and took 2nd
It has good potential...but I am not claiming anything more.
Just to defend some points.
This wasn't really a Junk type deck which everyone thought it was...it was not junk.. it just looks like it. Thats why I posted it on the aggro loam section because I think it runs more like a BWG loam.
Depths was plan B, and as I said, hexmage isn't really dead since there are a lot of planeswalkers running about. Depths hexmage wasn't my first option to win the game. It used to have cycle lands in there, but I needed a little more speed and decided to cut them.
The difference I see between chalice and thoughtseize, is that thoughtseize doesn't protect the combo from top decks, as most of the time, you would want to do an ENd of their turn fetch into depths from KOtR.
Also claiming the combo isn't protected is a premature statement, as chalice even if you get it later on protects it from stp and path which are only one of the few spells that deal with the indestructible legend.
Wasteland protection can be your own wasteland... can be kotr fetching into wasteland forcing them to waste so that you can respond to his activation with the combo... can be Loam getting depths back or wasteland... can be volrath getting back hexmage....Karakas protection can be your own karakas and wasteland. You just have to be smart when you try to pull of the combo.. and when you don't need to, then dont since it wasn't primarily the way you want to win.
The strength of the deck and plan B combo lies in 1 turn kills... I have been down to 1 for around 3-4 matches.. and would have lost most of my games if it weren't for plan B. I have won most of my games from plan B because all their removal spells went to KOtR and confidant..It also helps that the combo doesn't rely on the graveyard.
I also hate having to remove stp as I think its the best removal spell, but I believe that chalice protects the combo, knights,goyf and even confidant more than thoughtseize.. and is even more disruptive if left unnoticed.. ... I would only put in thoughtseizes if I had hymn to back it up.Just my opinion however.
If I were to make this more of a junk rock.. I would probably do the same thing... get rid of those chalice.. and put in thoughtseize and stp to replace smothers.. find a way to add hymn for more disruption...
Here's my latest Rock creation. It's a deviation from the G/B Natural Order Vengevine list I posted some pages back:
G/B/w BARock Obama
Buried Alive Rock
// Lands (21)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures (23)
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ROE] Vengevine
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis
// Spells (16)
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [AP] Vindicate
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
This list resembles traditional Rock builds a little more than the Natural Order list did. I decided to splash white, because Qasali Pridemage is just too good with Genesis. Maindeck Vindicates are also really good in here, complimenting the Wastelands and giving me answers to all sorts of randomness from Tombstalker to Jace TMS.
Buried Alive is an incredibly powerful card. Whether I'm grabbing triple Vengevines or a Genesis pile, Buried Alive is a strong card advantage spell. Vengevine beats are awesome, and Genesis recursion gives the deck a great midgame.