Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
I need help in improving my SB strategies. Currently I'm going with 3 Fetches and 1 Forest + a set of Nature's Claim to deal with the hate and honestly, even with Serum Powder it only gives me a marginal strategy and it doesn't really give me the better edge that I need. I've always been curious about the Dryad Arbor but can someone explain how it works? I'm fairly new to this variant of Dredge and although I find it really fun to play with, I want to take my play to the next level by constantly learning new tech especially geared towards protecting my game plan.
So my ultimate question would be, if it's safe to assume that there will always be GY hate in any meta, whether it's via DRS, RiP, or whatever, how does a good Manaless Dredge player go around it specifically when it comes to game 2-3? I wouldn't be considering answers like "if you're expecting RiP meta, don't play this deck because I know as a fairly established deck in the meta, even amidst GY hate this deck will still be able to smash face. Plus, it's really fun to play with so yeah any thoughts/suggestions are highly encouraged. TIA.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dreinal13
I need help in improving my SB strategies. Currently I'm going with 3 Fetches and 1 Forest + a set of Nature's Claim to deal with the hate and honestly, even with Serum Powder it only gives me a marginal strategy and it doesn't really give me the better edge that I need. I've always been curious about the Dryad Arbor but can someone explain how it works? I'm fairly new to this variant of Dredge and although I find it really fun to play with, I want to take my play to the next level by constantly learning new tech especially geared towards protecting my game plan.
So my ultimate question would be, if it's safe to assume that there will always be GY hate in any meta, whether it's via DRS, RiP, or whatever, how does a good Manaless Dredge player go around it specifically when it comes to game 2-3? I wouldn't be considering answers like "if you're expecting RiP meta, don't play this deck because I know as a fairly established deck in the meta, even amidst GY hate this deck will still be able to smash face. Plus, it's really fun to play with so yeah any thoughts/suggestions are highly encouraged. TIA.
Increasing reliability against hate is what they have been testing Serum Powder for. (you'll have to forgive me, I've literally only just signed up to this forum so have no idea how to link cards)
Main-decking Serum Powder allows you to more reliably search for & open with your GY hate answers, be it Chancellor of the Annex/Phantasmagorian/Street Wraith for DRS or for a Dryad Arbor/Forest and Reverent Silence/Nature's Claim against RiP/Leyline of the Void.
The Dryad Arbors count as forests, helping you get your enchantment destruction online, but also count as saccable creatures that you can play from your hand if you open with it, and can stack above Nether Shadow in gyard.
Additionally, if you're running Bloodghasts, they can net you an additional 1-4 creatures when played.
Also, just wanted to say thanks to everyone in this thread, I read through this a few weeks ago and have been playing manaless ever since, really enjoying the pretty much daily innovation and in-depth testing & reporting.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Noob question-
When exiling the hand with a Serum Powder, does the rest of the hand have to be revealed, or just the powder? Wondering how much info has to be shared with opponent. Card doesn't say to exile face-up or face-down. Thx.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
With Powder you exile the entire hand. Since it's exiled, it becomes public info, so your opponent can look at all the exiled cards. Does that answer your question?
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Cards exiled are always face up unless the effect that exiled them says they aren't.
Ninjas everywhere.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
What kind of list would you guys use if you wanted to combat graveyard hate (ie: RiP/Cage)?
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Froggy
What kind of list would you guys use if you wanted to combat graveyard hate (ie: RiP/Cage)?
Wouldn't bother with Grafdigger's Cage at all because Nature's Claim and Dryad Arbor are a non-bo vs any deck with Wasteland, otherwise I'd try a list with Dryad Arbor and additional Fetchlands between the MD and SB to support Reverent Silence. Ultimately tho' I just don't think it's ever going to be a problem this deck can solve and you have to accept that fact, even if you show horn in 8 answers for artifacts and enchantments and 7 more lands in the SB you're conceeding something like your Storm or Reanimator match up and even if you do answer they've basically tripple Time Walked you. I think if you want to play Dredge in a U/w/x dominated metagame you have to play the mana version fwiw. Deathrite Shaman metagames you have the tools to overcome, but Rest in Peace metagames basically obsolete the deck.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Atm I'm playing a hybrid version of manaless with unmasks md and chancellor:
Creatures:43
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Street Wraith
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Griselbrand
Spells:16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Unmask
Sideboard:15
3 Forest
3 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Reverent Silence
There's one free slot. I was thinking at a dryad arbor (reverent silence, cabal therapy, token and so on).
Went 1-3, lost to merfolk 1-2 (wrong therapy call), lost to rug delver 1-2, won to sneak&show 2-0 (thanks to griselbrand and a large amount of tokens) and lost to rb goblins 0-2 (earwig squad that removes three bridges).
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
I see you don't ever put Chancellor in any of your lists Hollywood, is there a reason for that?
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Froggy
I see you don't ever put Chancellor in any of your lists Hollywood, is there a reason for that?
It isn't necessary (or good for that matter) at combating troublesome decks. It's a flex slot for the most part, and just a terrible top deck. (Granted Powder is the same, but the effect is far more game changing.) It just doesn't do anything but Force Spike, but we beat Deathrite Shaman anyhow. Turn one discard is useless, because the opponent has done nothing aside from that for me to worry about. Sure, take another turn. I'll win in two.
I just don't like it enough to play it. I've tried it tons of times, but found it borderline.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
It isn't necessary (or good for that matter) at combating troublesome decks. It's a flex slot for the most part, and just a terrible top deck. (Granted Powder is the same, but the effect is far more game changing.) It just doesn't do anything but Force Spike, but we beat Deathrite Shaman anyhow. Turn one discard is useless, because the opponent has done nothing aside from that for me to worry about. Sure, take another turn. I'll win in two.
I just don't like it enough to play it. I've tried it tons of times, but found it borderline.
I agree that its mostly a flex slot, and it is easy to beat DRS once you're used to it. I think I'll try Powder in its place.
I'll post my new list once MTGO is done maintenance, hopefully get some tips on it.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
I mean, it's not a bad card, I just don't like it.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
I think the more interesting observation is the lack of a "insta-win" type dread return target. I had went down to two Griz and no Shambling Shell for 3 Serum Powder. It appears the other two were cut for a second Flayer and the 4th Serum. Not needing Griz to win, this makes sense. It weakens the Show'n'Tell match-up, cause dropping Griz is just fun.
Another question, why two Verdant Catacombs over Dakmoor Salvage? That doesn't make as much sense, since the number of lands you start with stay the same, slightly lessens the number of dredgers, lower potential for landfall triggers for ghast.
I'm not in love with Mindbreak Trap for non-belcher storm decks, but there's not much better. I dig the Claims, Silence and Macabre. I like Chancellor, but am beginning to feel it's a trap (much like any of the Leylines- not a fan for this deck.) Relying on it to be in the opening hand, and then it's functionally a dead card there (stacking ontop of Shadows aside), seems like it should do more.
Do you miss having removal at all? A resolved Elesh Norn is game over. I'm a fan of Sickening Shoal cause Phant can murder most things.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ahg113
I think the more interesting observation is the lack of a "insta-win" type dread return target. I had went down to two Griz and no Shambling Shell for 3 Serum Powder. It appears the other two were cut for a second Flayer and the 4th Serum. Not needing Griz to win, this makes sense. It weakens the Show'n'Tell match-up, cause dropping Griz is just fun.
Flayer of the Hatebound is, under most circumstances, an instant win target. If you have enough gas to get three creatures into play, you've probably already attacked your opponent to a low enough life total where either another Therapy and or another Dread Return will seal the game. This is especially true with the second Flayer, which is included for not only redundancy in the event the first gets exiled to Serum Powder, but for ridiculously powerful tricks with multiple Dread Returns.
Quote:
Another question, why two Verdant Catacombs over Dakmoor Salvage? That doesn't make as much sense, since the number of lands you start with stay the same, slightly lessens the number of dredgers, lower potential for landfall triggers for ghast.
I'm a little confused...how does Verdant Catacombs lower the potential for Bloodghast Landfall triggers? With Bloodghasts in your graveyard, playing one of these not only triggers the return of those Bloodghasts, but once they are sacrificed, you can crack the fetch for a Dryad Arbor and trigger them back into play again. Remember, you're playing Serum Powder, so there's a good chance you'll open the game with a land. Dakmor Salvage at two is just a useless dredge under most circumstances - with the Catacombs providing additional ways of finding your green source preboard, providing synergy with Bloodghast and protecting your Arbors so you can grab them at the end of an opponent's turn when they're tapped out for whatever they're playing.
We discussed the big play potential previously about Dread Returning Dryad Arbor if the situation calls for it. Not only does this line of play allow for a ridiculous amount of tokens, it brings you back your Bloodghasts and your Arbor. While not the deck's primary win engine, this line of play can overwhelm an opponent very quickly. Dakmor Salvage is just a bad land drop to start the game and is an even more worse card to dredge on turns three to four. If you're dredging that by then, you've probably already lost.
Quote:
I'm not in love with Mindbreak Trap for non-belcher storm decks, but there's not much better.
There really isn't much better, and in all honesty, Storm is the deck's worst possible match-up. However, Serum Powder has changed that so you can open the game up with one to start the game. This at least buys you time and can often blow an opponent out.
Quote:
A resolved Elesh Norn is game over. I'm a fan of Sickening Shoal cause Phant can murder most things.
I'm aware of that, and I used to run Shoal for that very reason. Although, a blowout Faerie Macabre on the Reanimator player is usually game over, wiping out their number one target and clearing the path for victory.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[3x] Contagion
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Dread Return
[2x] Griselbrand
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[3x] Serum Powder
What do you guys think of this?
EDIT: I really like what I'm seeing with Serum Powder, gives the deck so much more speed when you rip it in the opener. When you do, its like playing with a 53 card deck, its quite impressive. Awesome find Hollywood!
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
It isn't necessary (or good for that matter) at combating troublesome decks. It's a flex slot for the most part, and just a terrible top deck. (Granted Powder is the same, but the effect is far more game changing.) It just doesn't do anything but Force Spike, but we beat Deathrite Shaman anyhow. Turn one discard is useless, because the opponent has done nothing aside from that for me to worry about. Sure, take another turn. I'll win in two.
I just don't like it enough to play it. I've tried it tons of times, but found it borderline.
I don't understand this, I've played game, after game, after game vs Deathrite Shaman.dec on MTGO and Manaless Dredge does not have enough MD answers to address a T1 Deathrite Shaman between Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian regardless of Serum Powder. But instead of MDing or SBing the 1 card that best stops both Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progenitus, gives the deck soft disruption vs. the format and a Dread Return target vs Storm you'd rather dedicate 7 cards in your SB vs Rest in Peace with only 6 mana sources that can cast those 7 cards when all 6 of those mana sources have summoning sickness for Nature's Claim and are some how supposed to survive a turn vs a removal spell or Wasteland or have another mana to pay for a Daze ...
This deck is 100% about addressing the match ups that it can win and avoiding the match ups that it can't win, like any other glass cannon, and I really don't know why you think it's ok not to have an incredibly high win % vs Deathrite Shaman.dec with 4 MD/SB cards but it's ok to have an incredibly low win % vs Rest in Peace.dec even with 7 SB cards. The MD space, SB space, math and interaction is just not in our favour vs any deck playing Rest in Peace other than Death&Taxes, where it's effectively just a bad Leyline of Sanctity, and why I only really advocate trying to deal with combo and Deathrite Shaman because the cards that deal with those are completely free.
I mean, if you want to SB Chancellor of the Annex so you can play a more "home brew" version of Manaless Dredge with Edge of Autum and Dakmor Salvage at least I can get that because not every deck in the format plays Deathrite Shaman and it is pretty fun and powerful, but not taking the lock on the matches we can win outright and playing a ton of cards instead that are inneffectual vs Rest in Peace (especially since that card was moved into a tempo shell with Daze) just seems like incredibly bad metagaming to me.
At most I'd SB Reverent Silence and pray to the god's of variance it works.
Also I'm just not a huge fan of Dread Return targets in the Bloodghast lists, I always think "these could be 2 more Fetchlands" and just end up cutting them because Fetchlands in the MD just make so much more sense than in the SB considering they are straight up business with Bloodghast.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
I have to agree. I was a big advocate of anti hate sb but as much as I love to getting rid of RiP I don't like to draw go few turns, getting Rev. Silence and having it countered or gaping at second RiP dropped afterwards. Having half of the sb dedicated to fight a single colored card is just a waste of space.
On Bloodghast list - I don't play it but I think green fetches would be a better way than Dakmor Salvage. Salvage is a really poor dredger and fetches getting you Dryad and activating Ghasts are much nicer :)
