[Deck] U/R Delver

Well Wasteland only casts Tarmogoyf in RUG Delver and their mana denial plan wins a lot of games for them. Wasteland is valuable in this deck, yes it only casts pyro but that's fine.

I haven't sleeved it up yet, as I am deciding between this deck or ANT for the Legacy GP in November but if I did it would look something like this:

Creatures (12)
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Young Pyromancer

Sorceries (11)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
3x Treasure Cruise

Instants (20)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will

Lands (17)
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
4x Volcanic Island
1x Island
4x Wasteland

This would be my shell. Would have to experiment on whether you want an 18th land or go down to 16, whether you want the 4th cruise, if you want spell snare or spell pierce in the mb, maybe a chain lightning or forked bolt, even some preordain, etc.

I don't see a point in running SCM alongside of TC. SCM into Bolt costs 3 mana in a single turn, TC into Bolt 2 and you get two additional cards in exchance for the 2/1 Body SCM has. Is this even close to being comparable?

I have to question all these Burn spells and the Spell Pierces if you are already running TC. IMO the Bolts are kinda redundant and limited in their flexibility if you already run massive draw like TC. Why not using cantrips like Probe or Thought Scour to feed your graveyard for TC and draw into your selection of Burn-spells instead of them bricking your hand in matchups which require counterspells? Why Spell Pierce if you can gain a massive advantage against the current metagame and expected TC-wars if you run mainboard Pyroblasts? Is there any point in running more than 1 basic each?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't see a point in running SCM alongside of TC. SCM into Bolt costs 3 mana in a single turn, TC into Bolt 2 and you get two additional cards in exchance for the 2/1 Body SCM has. Is this even close to being comparable?

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Yeah, actually, they're very comparable. Snapcaster garauntees (assuming no disruption obviously) a specific card in the yard, with complete certainty; if your opponent is at 3 life, snaps can garauntee a win, while cruise can only probably give you the win.

(You can argue that snaps is really bad against deathrite, and you're right, but you can also argue that cruise is bad against spell pierce so I think it's not a point worth bringing up.)

Furthermore, snapping back a bolt to remove a blocker on end step and being left with a 2/1 is fucking great. Snapcaster gets there man, if 2/1s didn't swing in he wouldn't be a good card.

They're both good for different reasons but it's not like there's a clear cut answer.

Snapcaster is useless in this deck now. Way to mana intensive and worse than TC, both in card advantage and synergy

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Originally Posted by cab0747

My buddy inspired me to put together the UR Delver "Burn" list last week (good timing, Kyle). After seeing Bob's results and deck from this pas weekend, I wanted to see if I could fit in treasure Cruise into the more burn-focused deck. This is very rough draft. Once Khans is released online, I can do some testing. Until then I may jam a few games with friends.


2 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa

3 Treasure Cruise
4 Goblin guide - (Will also test with 4 Monastary Swiftspear in this slot)
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing needle
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod


Do you see any glaring holes? I doubt this is optimal, but I think it is a good place to start. I am interested to see if I can get the Treasure Cruise and Snapcaster Mage in the same deck and not have them stepping on each others toes the entire game.

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Alright this kind of list is my forte because I've been running it for-fucking-ever. Couple things:

You should certainly test swiftspear vs. guide, I have no idea which is better. They're too new to say for sure but in the UR variant it certainly seems like swiftspear is the better card so far. Which is a shame since I bought those guides. Whatever.

I don't think daze is worth running. This deck is at its strongest at 3-4 mana, and daze delays that turn. I've also written like 4 or 5 posts full of reasons I don't like daze on the last few pages if you're interested.

If you're playing snapcaster and price, go for 2 price and 4 snapcaster, with a 3rd price in the board. A lot of tier 1 decks just don't care about price (Death and Taxes will rarely take more than 2 damage, and any good miracles player won't take more than 2 either) and you don't want to draw dead cards in any matchup. Snapcaster is just so strong that you definitely want 3-4 if you're running it.

I also think it's important to run at least 12 permanent threats. In the list I ran immediately before the printing of khans I ran 14.

Also, Flooded Strand? Really? Misty Rainforest has way better art.

All that being said here's the list I'd run, going off what you've provided:

2 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa

3 Treasure Cruise
4 Goblin guide / Monestary Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing needle
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Snapcaster is useless in this deck now. Way to mana intensive and worse than TC, both in card advantage and synergy

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I could not disagree more. I already ran a list with grim lavamancer and snapcaster and it was fine. And looking at snapcaster as "1 for 1" card advantage is ignoring both the 2/1 body and the fact that you get to choose the card you flash back.

I'll admit that he might not be a 4-of anymore but he is far from useless.

And remember, there are two ur decks now, a burn based one with snapcaster and a tempo/creature based one with pyromancer. In the pyromancer version you shouldn't run snapcaster, and vice versa, but that was already true before treasure cruise was printed because snapcaster and pyromancer are pretty much opposite cards.

I think 4 treasure cruise is gonna be pretty much standard now in the pyro lists but there's no reason you can't run 2-3 in the snapcaster list, just cut grim lavamancer.

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

I think 4 treasure cruise is gonna be pretty much standard now in the pyro lists but there's no reason you can't run 2-3 in the snapcaster list, just cut grim lavamancer.

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This was my thought. I am starting with a 2 Snap / 3 Cruise split with no lavamancers.

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Originally Posted by cab0747

This was my thought. I am starting with a 2 Snap / 3 Cruise split with no lavamancers.

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2 feels really threat-light though. I wouldn't go below 12 creatures, but that's just me. Maybe something like 4 delver, 3 goblin guide, 3 swiftspear, 2 snapcaster?

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

You should certainly test swiftspear vs. guide, I have no idea which is better. They're too new to say for sure but in the UR variant it certainly seems like swiftspear is the better card so far. Which is a shame since I bought those guides. Whatever.

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Noted. I will test on paper probably this week and then on MTGO once Khans is released.

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

I don't think daze is worth running. This deck is at its strongest at 3-4 mana, and daze delays that turn. I've also written like 4 or 5 posts full of reasons I don't like daze on the last few pages if you're interested.

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This was brought up when my friends and I were discussing the deck earlier. I will see how it runs with and without Daze.

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

If you're playing snapcaster and price, go for 2 price and 4 snapcaster, with a 3rd price in the board. A lot of tier 1 decks just don't care about price (Death and Taxes will rarely take more than 2 damage, and any good miracles player won't take more than 2 either) and you don't want to draw dead cards in any matchup. Snapcaster is just so strong that you definitely want 3-4 if you're running it.

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4 Snaps with the Treasure Cruises seemed greedy to me. Again, I will test and see how it works out. Right now, I will stick with the 2/2 split. I agree that 3 price may be too much

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

I also think it's important to run at least 12 permanent threats. In the list I ran immediately before the printing of khans I ran 14.

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I will keep an eye out for this when testing. I will admit the number of permanent threats was not considered when drafting this list.

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

Also, Flooded Strand? Really? Misty Rainforest has way better art.

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I have UR Delver, UWR Delver, and Miracles in the same sleeves to switch back and forth easily. Strands are only for convenience. I agree that Misties look better ;)

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

All that being said here's the list I'd run, going off what you've provided:

2 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa

3 Treasure Cruise
4 Goblin guide / Monestary Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing needle
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod

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The only gripe I have with this was mentioned above: I feel like running a higher number for Cruises and the full 4 Snaps may not work well together. Again, with no testing so far, I have no evidence to back this up. I will test and see if the numbers could be adjusted.

Thanks for the feedback!

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

2 feels really threat-light though. I wouldn't go below 12 creatures, but that's just me. Maybe something like 4 delver, 3 goblin guide, 3 swiftspear, 2 snapcaster?

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I was actually just thinking something like this!

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

Haha hi guys. I'll write something up for CFB, but here are some quick replies from my phone. I actually drew 3 cruises vs shardless on camera in round 8. Cruise is just too good. I'm okay with shuffling away extras and pitching them to fow, but I always want one. After the first, the second becomes easier to cast. Stifle/waste are fine but less good when expected and they don't synergize with swiftspear.

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It seems to me that UR-Delver, UWR Delver or Grixis Delver are the best fits for Treasure Cruise and YP/Swiftspear.

Have you thought about going Grixis and replacing reactive disruption like Spell Pierce/Daze with active disruption like Cabal Therapy (combo with YP/Probe) and/or Thoughtseize?

Basically take Eric Rill's Grixis shell from last year and replace Dark Confidant with Treasure Cruise and Stifle with Swiftspear.

I played UR delver until True-Name Nemesis got printed. After that, merfolk keeps me entertained, so I am here as intruder and spy.
But I just love this deck (always in shock when I win matches and tournaments with this since everything looks so underpowered).

Few observations:
Misties over Strands, obv.
Agree with 2 PoPs main, one side. I always find them in game one if needed. Because of them, I never played Wastelands.
Grixis Delver is my secret crush (YP + Probe + Therapy is so dreamy) which I never played. Hopefully Bob's win inspire Rill to make another winner.
I was thinking about replacing sacred cow Ponder with Thought Scour. I am aware what Ponder brings, but I also think that having open Spell Pierce/Brainstorm/Bolt mana gives more protection, and firing off Scour eot have mostly the same effect as first turn Ponder. It feeds Snapcaster and Treasure Cruise, removes Brainstorm trash at the top just like Ponder (but we probably have to shuffle after), it is probably brutal in Grixis Delver when we cast Therapy, they Brainstorm and we clear the "saved" cards and so on.
Without Thought Scour I would only play 3 Cruise, that seems like a perfect number.
14 creatures was my ideal number. Nothing changed for me about that.

TL&DR, what do you think about Thought Scour in this deck?

I would never in a million years cut ponder. It's the second best card in the deck, dwarfed only by brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by kaminamina

I would never in a million years cut ponder. It's the second best card in the deck, dwarfed only by brainstorm.

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I like preordain. I get better card quality over ponder. But thats just me.

Took this list to a tourny yesterday and went 5-1 netting me 2nd place.

Main deck:
4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
4 Pyromancer
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Probe
3 T. Cruise
4 FoW
4 Daze
2 spell pierce
2 Forked bolt
4 Bolt
1 Chain Lightning
3 Volcanic island
2 island
2 mountain
10 Fetch

Board:
2 elecktrickery
1 null rod
2 REB
2 Relic of Prog.
2 Surgical Extr.
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
2 Smash to smithereens

Matches:
U/G burn/ramp 2-0
D&T 2-0
ANT 2-0
Miracles 0-2
Omni show 2-0
U/R delver mirror 2-1

Notes/comments:
M.Swiftspear performed way better than expected. Beat for 2-3 or even 4, and the 3 toughness is priceless. I will not be using GG again compared to this.
T.Cruise is awesome. Insane topdeck lategame (if you get there) and easy to delve. I think 4 is too much, 1 too few, so I will be testing between 2 and 3.
Pierce main worked alright. I think I will keep them in for now. Didnt miss more cantrips.
17 lands worked good. sometimes I got stuck with 1, but it was never an issue.
Smash in board will be shattering sprees for easier casting.
Not sure on surgicals even tho they fit well with our red dudes.
Never saw Elecktrickery, but it must be good in the mirror.
Miracle matchup is really bad. I think i will board 2 needles, 2 null rods next time.

Overall experience
U/R delver got a huge boost with the new cards. Very fun to play and very consistent!

Congrats!

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Originally Posted by Neffy

Matches:
U/G burn/ramp 2-0

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Could you describe this deck?

Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him :tongue:

You should not run Red Elemental Blast. Pyroblast is considerably better in this list as you can cast it without the required target to trigger Young Pyromancer or Monastery Swiftspear when you need to.

I've actually dropped down to 2 ponders in this deck in favor of more chain lightnings. I feel like 4 probes, 4 brainstorm, 2 ponder and 3 cruise is plenty of cantrips. At some point you need to cantrip into action, not more cantrips. I have also always been a fan of having more reach in this deck. I honestly haven't even noticed they were gone.

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Originally Posted by Juice11

I've actually dropped down to 2 ponders in this deck in favor of more chain lightnings. I feel like 4 probes, 4 brainstorm, 2 ponder and 3 cruise is plenty of cantrips. At some point you need to cantrip into action, not more cantrips. I have also always been a fan of having more reach in this deck. I honestly haven't even noticed they were gone.

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I'd never cut Ponder in a tempo deck that runs with just 17 lands. TC is not a cantrip and you'll certainly be mana screw a lot of times

I probably wouldn't cut ponders either, cantrips seem even better now (in the SCG list) because

a) Swiftspear
b) Pyromancer
c) Treasure Cruise

All of these cards go really well with a cycling sorcery