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sdt in play and 1uu in pool enable the following, even with no cards in hand:
IU
LED
LED
night's whisper
Lab man
-switch top, draw IU
-iu (1 in pooL), draw sdt, LED, LED
-play sdt (0 in pooL)
-LED, LED, break LEDS (uuubbb)
-switch top, whisper (uuub)
-top, Lab man,
-switch top, gg
This one isn't really anti-stifle, as the opponent may stifle the sdt :PQuote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I don't really see when this would be better thanQuote:
Originally Posted by [reptiLe]
SDT +1UU
IU
LED
GP
LED
B. Wish
7 Storm +DDay.
The kill is different, sure, but the piles are limited and lab man is totally useless pre-combo compared to something like burning wish. Keeping the "cards-that-suck" count down to have better opening hands is key.
"you go to 4 life, I gain 16, your turn."Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Of course it sucks to run Lab Man, I was simply giving a win-pile that's independent from the opponent's life total, doesn't cost a ton of mana, and doesn't require a storm count.
Gotcha. Thought it was being legitimately advocated, and I've gotta assume you're kidding with the 7-storm-dday pile-not-being-lethal thing.
EDIT: Huh, LM gets around some weird stuff. Anyone have thoughts on... better piles?
Here is basically the same pile in a "pas the turn" fashion:Quote:
Originally Posted by [reptiLe]
You need: SDT in play and 0 mana!
LED
IU
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Lab Man
Drawphase: Draw LED
play LED
tap SDT, crack LED in resp for UUU
play IU (U floating), drawing: SDT, LED, GP
play LED (U floating)
play SDT for U
play GP for 2 life, crack LED in resp for UUU
tap SDT for the win
//Edit: now that i'm thinking of it: Lab Man also has a point agains Spiral Tide (and, yeah: I know they can bounce him, just like they can counter your Chants or deal with whatever hate they face).
Again: This is about creating cheaper piles that can completely ignore Gaddock Teeg/Aven Mindcensor (protected by MoR). My goal was to build efficient (read: cheap) piles without placing bounce in it that can win through this.
Lab Man is interesting, but the win scenarios are very narrow. The only cases I see Lab Man coming in are:
1) Meddling Mage/Nevermore effects played by decks with little disruption e.g. FoWless Bant builds and Enchantress.
2) You need a pile that beats Stifle
3) Beats Leyline of Sanctity, Runed Halo, and Solitary Confinement effects (a little narrow but still relevant)
Against storm/combo, Lab Man is too slow, against countertop, Shelldock Isle is better, against heavy counter, a pass-the-turn Lab Man pile isn't as good as a storm pile building storm off opponent's spells. But Lab Man is pretty cool with DD though :D
The 0-cost of the pile isn't a huge benefit since it's a pass-the-turn pile. You can build many pass-the-turn piles that use little or no mana. My favorite is Helm/SDT/SDT/Grapeshot pass-the-turn or no-pass-the-turn piles in the cases where you need to fight multiple hate bears.
You get a pass the turn pile as 1UU with an extremely obvious pile of:
IU
LED
Probe
SDT
Lab Manaic
This has no requirements on cards in hand, can be used as a win this turn pile if you have Probe/Ponder/Preordain/Brainstorm in hand, and has minimal life requirements (3 life post-DD).
Lab Maniac is still terrible, but you people suck at making Lab Maniac piles.
Laboratory Maniac is interesting but ... is it needed? It dies to every relevant removal/burn spell in the format. What situations would you actually want this in? Emrakul makes some insanely cheap piles, wins through Teeg, and requires no storm either. The only thing I like about LM is that you can throw him out there turn 3 if u drew it and try to draw out counters or start attacking. Aside from that I really don't see a need for it at all. Its cool as hell but .... why would you ever run it?
how would -any- pile be immune to aven mindcensor, given the ability of the mindcensor to limit doomsday to the top 4 cards of the library + the graveyard?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
holy crap, how much bad feedback can one get from a fuckin' random example, chill off dudes...Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
only post sb if creatures are totally unexpected, which is pretty unlikely since dark confidants are quite common anyhow... I simply see it as random excercise with dd piles (which I'm definitely not good at, as I've been playing straight tendrils as of forever and never have remotely considered dd as viable, at least in the italian metagame) :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
And how is this pile better than the one I suggested?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I mean: my requirement was 0 mana and a SDT in play. Your requirement was 1UU. Those are just two different things to start with. I wanted to point out that a singleton Lab Man in SB can save you some SB-slots for bounce-spells. That's it.
Saying that we suck at making Lab Maniac piles is not helpful if you dont explain yourself.
@ [reptiLe]: Aven Mindcensor is not tutorable via GSZ. So they have to rely on topdecking one. The chances on that happening during the first 3 turns are quite low. The Lab Man pass-the-turn-pile is a very fast as it basically only requires you to cast DD. Then you either need 1UU floating (as emildin suggested) or a SDT in play (my suggestion). Being fast is an answer to Aven Mindcensor here.
Plus, this Pile plays around Gaddock Teeg with mother-protection.
Makes sense :) Unfortunately here in Italy aven is played as a 3-of in most maverick lists, but i guess i can thoutseize on turn 1/2 before dding. Anyhow, it's pretty pointless to worry about maverick at all in the first place as it's one of our easiest matchups, and infest/virtue's ruin solve any problem pretty well.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
There is a huge difference between a pile requiring a card in your hand, specifically BS/PON/SDT v.s. a pile that doesn't require a draw spell in your hand. That's the subtle but BIG difference. post-DD, you should at least have 3 mana anyway so building a pile that requires a kick start of 3 mana and no card-requirement in hand is easier to fulfill than having the scenario where you need a BS/PON/SDT to go off. Furthermore, emdlin's pile will win on the turn instead of PTT (Pass-the-turn) if you have a BS/PON/SDT in hand. Your pile isn't bad, but emdlin's one is better for more general situations i.e. I can hardly think of a situation where I would have zero mana post-DD v.s. a situation where I need to build a pile that's dependent on having BS/PON/SDT in hand/play.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
@Top-decking Aven Mindcensor. If decks played the bird, they will not be playing a lone copy, so top-decking is no more different than you top-decking your spells as well.
The only benefit I see from Lab Maniac in DD (I think it's still terrible but who knows, some of us thought SFM/Batterskull was terrible, myself included) is that it only takes 1 slot v.s. the 2 slots for Helm/Grapeshot or SI/Emrakul (3 slots for SI/Emrakul if you intend to play CoF). This maybe very relevant and a big plus. BUT the drawback is that if they keep their bolts/StPs in, you're in big trouble unless you have a pile with Chant/Duress. A little brainstorming shows that Labman could be good against Teeg/Canonist (Zoo, Maverick) but that's not true since these decks keep in their burn/removal. Labman could be good against countertop except it doesn't beat an active countertop where Emrakul does. In the end, the 1 slot v.s. 2-3 slots doesn't seem to outweigh when you can't reliably pull off wins in those difficult scenarios. Anyway, this is all my theorizing, but I don't think I could be too far off.
Lab Man probably owns Enchantress easily if they get like 10 hate-cards out (Leyline/Confinement/Runed Halo) etc, but Enchantress is usually an auto-win unless they stack multiple hate-cards too fast.
I've tried doomsday decks in the past, but haven't done very well with them, CBT, Merfolk and BUG decks have always been scary. The counterspells backed by disruption and pressure in BUG, and the high pressure and cheap counters of folk are quite scary, and CBT is obvious. So what are some suggestions for beating that kind of deck? Everything I've seen (here and in stormboards) seems way too all-in for me.
If your metagame is full of Aven Mindcensor you should consider Dread of Night.
Dread of Night also solves the problem of a Teeg protected by Mother of Runes...very fine from my point of view.
As far as mind sensor is concerned, this deck does not need to waiste a sb slot for a rare occurence. Being faster to set up is pretty irrelavent as the 4probe+Ideas Unbound+burning wish lists have verry consistent turn 2 kills when uninterruted.
Before the MM printing I was running Darkblast with pretty decent results. I ran it as a 2-of and it basically solves most of the problems u guys are talking about and takes away most of the relevant clocks control decks have. The only hate bear it doesn't kill is Canonist for obvious reasons :)
I attened a tourney yesterday with the following list:
//Mana
4 P. Delta
4 Sc. Tarn
2 U. Sea
3 Tundra
1 V. Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 LED
3 L. Petal
4 D. Rit
1 Rain of Filth
//Business
4 Chant
3 Silence
4 SDT
4 Ponder
4 BS
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 IU
3 Doomsday
4 BW
1 ToA
//Sideboard
1 ToA
1 DD
1 EtW
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Silent Departure
1 Duress
1 Meditate
1 Slaugther Pact
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Laboratory Maniac <3
2 Angels Grace :'(
I went 4-3, losing to:
* MUD (1-2) due to 7 Chalices in 3 games. LAb Maniac won me a game.
* The Gate (0-2) due to 4 Hymns to Awsomeness
* Belcher (1-2) due to FAIL.
I won against:
* UW Stone Blade feat. Enlightened Tutor Toolbox (SToney Silence, Cannonist, Chalice, Rule of Law): 2-0
* BUG Team America/Deedstill- Hybrid with Snapcaster Mages (2-1)
* Spiral Tide (2-1) Lab Man <3
* UBw ANT (2-0) My opp was just tired and somewhat confused.
I've been running a list with out white and with 3 duress and 3 thoughseize.
What are the reasons to run silence/chant over discard?
Chant and silence are better than discard if:
- the oppoent holds two Force of Will and one blue card
- the opponent has some Spell Snares and/or Stifles
- the opponent has a Snapcaster Mage with a counterspell in his Graveyard as his only counter
- you want to combo with Ill-Gotten Gains
- you play versus another storm deck