Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@ Ectoplasm
Quote:
Please explain how countertop creates cardadvantage, besides blindly feeding brainstorms/plows into their grinder. There's so many ways to prevent, get rid of or downright ignore the cb/top engine that I'm genuinely wondering how this is a means to create 'massive cardadvantage'.
The easiest way to think about Countertop card advantage is over the entirety of the game. Counterbalance countered how many spells for you? You paid 1-2 cards, and because of it, your opponent lost how many cards over the course of the game?
Countertop is card advantage if your opponent plays into it. It owns the 0-2cc curve, a substantial portion of most decks, and alongside additional permission to fill in gaps, outright invalidates most of your opponent's hand and subsequent topdecks.
Countertop is an asymmetrical (and more conditional) playset of Chalice of the Void@ 0-2 (and often 3). Chalice decks create card advantage by compressing their mana curves to avoid CotV@1-2, enabling their topdecks to retain value, while Countertop can do about the same thing at a price (not much of a price at all; usually it is a huge benefit) of keeping a similar mana curve to your opponent's (often low, efficient, and full of options for you). Countertop decks are Chalice decks with the awestriking consistency provided by cantrips, more effective mana curves (another point of consistency), and flexible dual-land mana bases.
Even if Countertop mostly eliminates small spells, it adds up. Even if decks have an answer to Countertop, they usually will have a hard time finding that answer while Countertop shuts down opposing card quality/advantage engines. Non-permission answers are very often subject to the CBTop engine, and when they aren't, they are often mana inefficient, poor in multiples, and unwieldy (EE, Vindicate, and Grip being the best/most versatile of the answers imho).
The only time Counterbalance doesn't create raw card advantage is when your opponent doesn't play directly into it, which is virtually card advantage anyways. Even if your opponent sandbags to unleash their hand in the future, only temporarily creating virtual card advantage, it is still creating tempo advantage as if your opponent's spells were countered for the duration of the sandbagging. That tempo is a window of opportunity whereby you can play spells and your opponent can't, allowing you to switch to the aggro role and push the pace before you opponent can draw into the necessary hand to answer you.
Decks that can almost completely avoid the Countertop curve (ironically, Chalice decks), win (or nearly win, a la breakthrough, etc.) before Counterbalance can be relevant (not easy to do), or cheat stuff into play via shusher/vial will actually make CB a source of card disadvantage for the Countertop player. Conditions to CBTop immunity or resistance are very hard to meet, and for most of the format, not possible.
Not only does CB-Top protect itself and produce massive card and tempo advantage, but because only the Countertop player knows his hand and top 3, he is the player with the information advantage. An active countertop allows you to leverage your information advantage, and it acts as a strong source of bluffing, often causing your opponent to play actually suboptimally (even if they made the correct choice given their knowledge). This information advantage is vital not only as an offensive permission engine, but it clearly defines for the Countertop player his own vectors of vulnerability which may be shrouded for an opponent who is both less aware of the current gamestate and less likely to see into the future gamestate as effectively as the Countertop player.
peace,
4eak
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Yeah, you pretty much pointed out that CB is a good card. I second that.
But for the Spell Snare debate, I can not understand why we shouldnīt run the best counter in the format as a 4-of. Itīs good against nearly every deck and hits the most dangerous spells from all of them. Snare is my MVP and I will always play four.
greetz,
NQN
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mister Agent
Well the point I am trying to make is, I think spell snare would be much better off in the sideboard instead. I just think it's too narrow of a card to be worth in the main.
As for the threshold matchup; Countertop threshold does have alot of stuff going for it and card advantage is definitely one of them. Countertop creates massive card advantage for them and I don't think it'll do any good to counter their counterbalance and goyf because they will find replacements soon enough with their cantrips. I also concern much more about sensei's divining top then counterbalance or goyf. It'll definitely be good to get a solid answer for top and spell snare isn't one of them.
As for Cunning Wish; it's still good in this format because it can steal you wins even against countertop aggro-control as I previously mentioned. Cunning wish gives you alot of flexibility and I think that outweighs it's speed efficiency by a large margin.
Also, spell snare isn't really all that great against goyf sligh thanks to vexing shusher. They can pretty much just hold back until they draw both PoP and shusher and just hit you for infinite anytime they want. So spell snare is bad there and if your metagame is full of goyf sligh either play a different deck or board in COP: Red.
I don't remember who said (maybe moss) that people try to forget that a deck which doesn't resolve bob or cb on turn2 are less more powerful that one that does. Spell snare is that great just because it lets us re-gain the gap landstill has in the first 2 turns, slowing down the opponent to our pace. Also, snare is INSANE against threshold decks, since (as ectoplasm very well pointed out) the curve offers at least 10 targets for snare, all of which are threats for us. From the first counterd counterbalance on, the threshold MU is not a difficult one. Also, what counterbalance can get in that mu, EE's can. Concerned about top? Come on... Every cantrip except predict just make card quality, not quantity or advantage, top is the only way they have to generate CA, so it's the first thing to care about, and snare does. There's a reason why decks in legacy struggle to control the 0-2 curve, from chalice of the void to counterbalance and so on: just because it's the most populated. Combo and aggro decks want to win as fast as possible: so it's normal for them to have a sensibly low curve, since they want cheap spells to win fast. Aggrocontrol decks try to dominate the curve following the strategies ectoplasm pointed out; in the case of cb decks, filling the same curve. So snare is not a situational card, but it's the card that has better understood the format.ddd
That said, if your meta is 70% goyf sligh just play a cb deck and not landstill :tongue:
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Hey everybody!
Just a little question about good old Wrath of God in Landstill (maybe even control in general?): Why are you all cutting it down to 1-2 or even dismiss it completely from your MB?
Yes, I know, i'ts CC 4 with double W, but in my experience his advantages outweigh this:
a) this is the card that prevents your opp from overextending
and
b) it gives you the steadiness against all those random fattie.decs and midrange decks (Zoo) in an unknown metagame.
Surprisingly g2g, I'll add something later.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Well it's definitely possible to play landstill without spell snare you just have to mulligan better and play more tightly. Geoff Smelski didn't even run spell snare in one of his latest builds and he still beat Nassif's NLU and did well overall at that event. He only had one spell snare in the board but that made sense since he ran cunning wish. Overall, I just think running Cunning wish over spell snare is a step in the right direction in my opinion and it doesn't really hurt to bring them from the board if needed.
Not to mention, Bobs aren't really too much of a concern since you already run the best removal spell in legacy(swords to plowshares) and also engineered explosives.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
In my opinion spell snare is one of the best blue cards in the format. It does so much for landstill and gives it so much breathing room in the early game. Getting to counter turn two bombs on the draw is amazing, I shouldn't have to compile a list of the enormous amount of overpowered 2cc cards in the format. It stomps two entire archetypes (survival and counterbalace/goyf) and I see absolutely no reason to run less than three (I play four).
On the wrath issue, I don't like it anymore because this is now an almost completely midrange format with very few decks running more than ten threats that wrath can touch. It is too often a 4cc 1 for 1, which is absolutely unacceptable. My current removal package is
4 swords
3 vindicate
3 ee
2 edict
And it's all I feel is needed currently. Cards like vindicate and ee are so important now because of their versatility and I don't see the room or the reason to include wrath in this strategy in the current overall metagame state.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Spellsnare also destroys the disruption Eva Green throws at you, Hymn to Tourach alone warrants running snares.
opponent: swamp
you: Tundra
opponent: swamp, hymn
you: *stares at the fow, brainstorm, plow, EE and lands in hand and sobs*
Countering hymns with fows just feels disgusting.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Look this argument about spell snare is rediculous. Spell snare is obviously the second best counter in the format besides force of will, as its free and it counters everything.
Theres also infinate reasons to run spell snare, including that spell snare on bob is a better answer then having to swords a bob. Hymn of toroch - spell snare is huge tempo, and even if they hit you for a hymn the next turn or so its still better that you countered the first one rather than the second one.
I'm not going to argue spell snares stance any longer. If you are talking about the card and arn't testing it now, then you shouldn't be in the discussion. Today's metagame is where spell snare is rediculous, not yesterdays.
Mister Agent- Konsultant's list had an extremely high curve for general landstill I believe, and even his list wasn't exactly the way he wanted it. He also had alot of answers to counterbalance but didn't exactly need to get rid of it. Even Geoff's list ran spell snare and I believe counterspell in the sb, and while I do not agree with his logic; he never the less was successfull and I was glad to have talked with him about his list.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
Look this argument about spell snare is rediculous. Spell snare is obviously the second best counter in the format besides force of will, as its free and it counters everything.
No doubt it's amazing. I won't argue, because I know it's the best. However, I believe running less than three is stupid.
Quote:
Theres also infinate reasons to run spell snare, including that spell snare on bob is a better answer then having to swords a bob. Hymn of toroch - spell snare is huge tempo, and even if they hit you for a hymn the next turn or so its still better that you countered the first one rather than the second one.
Yes, but it depends on what deck you're playing against. If you're playing against Thresh, you're better off casting your Swords to Plowshares on that Confidant rather than Spell Snare. At least by holding Spell Snare, you still have an out against Goyf or Counterbalance.
As for playing against Sui Black, yeah, Spell Snare is tres tempo. It's both tempo and card advantage if they cast a Hymn, Sinkhole, Shade or Confidant off that Dark Ritual. This card, on the play, destroys first turn Rituals. Even if they cast a Duress of that Dark Ritual, it shouldn't matter, because you've probably won more games off that Spell Snare against Sui Black compared to Sui Black winning games off Landstill from a Duress in that situation. Its an amazing trade off, because all decks have sick opening hands. Landstill, at least, can be consistent and good if played off a bad hand.
Quote:
I'm not going to argue spell snares stance any longer. If you are talking about the card and arn't testing it now, then you shouldn't be in the discussion. Today's metagame is where spell snare is rediculous, not yesterdays.
Indeed.
Quote:
Mister Agent- Konsultant's list had an extremely high curve for general landstill I believe, and even his list wasn't exactly the way he wanted it. He also had alot of answers to counterbalance but didn't exactly need to get rid of it. Even Geoff's list ran spell snare and I believe counterspell in the sb, and while I do not agree with his logic; he never the less was successfull and I was glad to have talked with him about his list.
Mister Agent played a lot with Spell Snare. I can't argue his points, mainly because my testing results are different, but you made it sound as if he hasn't played with Spell Snares before. That or I was misreading your tone, because it's 2 am right now.
Konsultant just plays Landstill differently compared to us. He plays the deck like Monowhite control that incorporates Blue control elements. I always see him running 3 DoJ and 3-4 WoGs. Always. I dont even see him cutting another copy of WoG or DoJ because of how he plays. But like you said, Landstill is totally a subjective deck that melds in with your play style. Maybe cards like Spell Snare, which you claim to be a necessity for Landstill, just doesnt float the boat for Konsultant and Mister Agent. Maybe that prefer late game control elements because they feel as if their early game is good enough to stall until it hits 6 land drops and start taking control of the game like an amazingly played King's Indian.
I agree that Spell Snare should be in the maindeck, but I'm doing that because I viewed the metagame objectively. I think cards like Spell Snare is great for these metagames that demand you to run Spell Snare and really should be a must, no question. I never see reasons to play a certain way with a deck just because "you like it." Like, I have fun with Landstill, which is why I built it, but I think you should always play the best build possible. I don't wanna do that crap where I play with cards I like; I'm playing to win. Yes, I play to have fun, but winning is fun. That, and the social aspect.
I'm saying, you should not run a certain build because it fits your "playstyle," but because it wins for you in testing and because they win for you tournaments. Although comfort as much to do with how you play certain cards, so you should be testing every possible option as well. If you're comfortable with playing in scenarios where you can use cards like Fact or Fiction, Cunning Wish, Vendellion Clique, Humility, Moat, Elspeth, Extirpate, Krosan Grip, Ponder, SDT, Ajani, etc... the list goes on. I'm saying, don't stick to that mentality where you play cards and decks a certain way because it's comfortable. It's lazy. Think objectively before you even apply that mentality into building Landstill. Try every possible thing you can get a hold of. I tested Clique because I was in disbelief that it's better than Counterspell. In my testing, it is. I dunno why I ranted.
Edit. I did amazing things with Clique during testing. I blocked Mongeese during blocker's step and stole a Goyf out of the opponent's hand because he refused to play cards before Main Phase 1, I cast Clique EOT then proceeded to drop a Moat next turn, and EOTed a Clique and stole a counter and then dropped an Elspeth on my turn which helped Clique swing for 6. That card just stole shit. It also gives me a reason to run Moat and mucho control elements.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Edit. I did amazing things with Clique during testing. I blocked Mongeese during blocker's step and stole a Goyf out of the opponent's hand because he refused to play cards before Main Phase 1, I cast Clique EOT then proceeded to drop a Moat next turn, and EOTed a Clique and stole a counter and then dropped an Elspeth on my turn which helped Clique swing for 6. That card just stole shit. It also gives me a reason to run Moat and mucho control elements.
I agree. The worst position I have ever been with vendillion Clique:
#1 Can't cast it. (Still pitches to force)
#2 Cast it against a deck that has good spot ping removal (Fire/ice, goblin sharpshooter, ect.)
#3 forcing the daze out of my opponents eot step (Which in reality isn't all that bad.)
Out of these three scenarios only one of them is truly bad. The other half of it is when you do get to steal cards like a lone force in said opponents hand with no blue card or the bomb said opponent is holding. The best is when they wish for something and pass their turn without casting said non castable card. That shits just funny.
Clique offers alot of things, but it does substancially weaken your stax matchup because its a full round later then counterspell would be. It also doesn't handle trinispher or armageddon alot of times so it leaves you open to random butt secks.
Theres something to quote:
"Vendillion Clique is to Armageddon stax, as Trinisphere is to butt secks."
Have fun with that one, whoever.
Love and Kisses
-Moss
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I think Clique is good against staxs because you can strip them of geddon, crucible, possibly exalted angel. Also, it costs 3 anyway so you don't have to pay extra to cast him. Still pitches to force. Still beats for 3. Still Evades. Still forces them to o-ring it, then you drop your real win conditions and ride them to victory.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
I think Clique is good against staxs because you can strip them of geddon, crucible, possibly exalted angel. Also, it costs 3 anyway so you don't have to pay extra to cast him. Still pitches to force. Still beats for 3. Still Evades. Still forces them to o-ring it, then you drop your real win conditions and ride them to victory.
Maybe I should clear this up. With my exceptionally love curve of 2.24 I seem to have a problem with trinisphere. With that said if I vendillion cliqued a geddon away and also had force for a geddon, then its quite plausible that matchup is winnable. But to me there are too many if's and lack of counterspell really does hinder that matchup.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
So I decided to test cunning wish again. Maybe I'm a better player now or maybe I was just being retarded, but I like it alot (I came into a pair of dci foils so I had to try them). I know you guys are sick of lists, so here's another!
3 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 island
2 plains
1 swamp
4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 cunning wish
2 sensei's top
2 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate
3 engineered explosives
2 diabolic edict (i love this card, I don't give a shit)
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
1 crucible of worlds
1 pulse of the fields
1 dismantling blow
1 path to exile
1 diabolic edict
1 blue elemental blast
1 hydroblast
3 tidehollow sculler
3 engineered plague
3 relic of projenitus
I'm thinking the wish board needs some work. Dismantling blow seems better than return to dust so I think I'm set on that and I don't think I need the full path to exile playset to win the merfolk match. Is there stuff other people are wishing for that's working well? Help a brother out.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mister Agent
Not to mention, Bobs aren't really too much of a concern since you already run the best removal spell in legacy(swords to plowshares) and also engineered explosives.
Now you are getting ridiculus. So no creature without shroud is a concern for us since we run removal for it? Yeah, we run 4 Swords and 2-3 EE and that means that Confidant is not good against us? What are you trying to say?
Confidant is REALLY good against us, because he creates a massive card advantage and the lifeloss is nearly irrelevant against Landstill as we either die or win with board control. Mostly, it doesn't matter if your opponent has 30 or 10 Life when you cycle a decree on an empty board. As a Landstill player you should know that.
But now to my question. It concerns Extirpate. I seem to be the only one who plays it nowadays. Thats my board (I play 2 Enlightened Tutor main):
4 Extirpate
4 Divert (testing in the moment, can just as well be Blasts)
2 Ajani Goldmane
1 Crypt
1 Engineered Plague
1 Counterbalance
1 Runed Halo
1 CoP: Red
Everybody runs 3-4 Relic where I run Extirpate. I really don't understand this, so maybe I don't see something important here. When I compare these two, Extirpate seems just better to me.
People keep saying that Relic is great against Goyf. I always shake my head while reading this. First, I want to know what cards you are boarding out for 4 Relic against a deck that plays Goyfs. When I look to my list I find not a single card that I would want to board out for Relic. And even if you get your Relic trough, the Goyf stays and it will be as big as before in 2-3 Turns. So I'd rather have a card like Wrath, Snare, Sword, EE that kills Goyf (or one that helps me to find those cards) than one that just weakens him or am I wrong?
I see that Extirpate does nothing against Terravore, but against Loam.dec I'd rather extirpate Life from the Loam than removing the grave and facing another Loam from his hand. But I admit that the Terravore issue may be a problem here as he can kill us alone in a few turns.
Against Ichorid, Extirpate seems good enough as you can remove the bridges and thats all you need I think.
Against other Combo like ANT it's pretty good I think. You can let him shuffle after a Mystical or extirpate other key cards. Relic does nothing here except preventing Iggy (oh yeah and the allmighty cantrip).
In the mirror Extirpate is just awesome. You can remove cards like FoW or Factory which will make the mirror favorable for you as the game will probaly take a while and he will miss those removed cards. And he can't counter it of course. Relic hits yourself here too (if you run Crucible) and would only be better as dead cards like Wrath because of the allmighty cantrip ability.
So I ask myself: Where are those matchups where Relic just rules? I recognise Loam and Survival (what nearly nobody plays in my meta) as two decks against which Relic is better than Extirpate, but overal I see Extiprate as more versatile and a lot more useful against many other decks. And I absoultely don't see a reason to play Relic even main! I mean, Landstill is a deck where even one-ofs are very important and so every single slot is VERY valuably. A Landstill build full of crappy cantrips like Ponder (in Landstill it IS crappy) and Relic is just not as good as one without. I hear people always saying: 'It's always AT LEAST a cantrip". But a cantrip is REALLY bad in a Landstill deck!
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Who's only running ee and swords? Everyone is running some combination of wrath, vindicate or edict on top of that. Plus factories. If you're swinging with factory they're either blocking with bob or risking 3-5 damage a turn. They would be stupid not to block.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
3duece
Who's only running ee and swords? Everyone is running some combination of wrath, vindicate or edict on top of that. Plus factories. If you're swinging with factory they're either blocking with bob or risking 3-5 damage a turn. They would be stupid not to block.
If they block, they will lose anyway, because of the bad matchup they have against us. They're only hope is to find a sword with counterbackup for the factroy in this szenario. Otherwise they will just lose to the cardadvantage Landstill has. And as I said before, they're life is pretty irrelavant against Landstill. They have to take the damage until they can't. What is the alternative? Just losing to the superior deck without at least trying to win in a lucky way?
But you ar missing the point. It was said that Confi is bad, because we have removal for it and that is just a bad argument.
Or do you want to say that all creatures are just bad against us, because we have ALWAYS removal for them? If so, we will only lose to Tendrills and Brainfreeze...
Of course, Landstill is the deck with the heaviest removal suite in Legacy, but nevertheless there are creatures that are more dangerous to us as others.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Well put, I agree. That being said, comment on my damn build.:smile:
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
3duece
Well put, I agree. That being said, comment on my damn build.:smile:
I don't like the Edicts. You have 4 Swords and 3 Vindicate as spot removal (and you can wish for more if necessary), I think Wrath, Humility or a 3. Wish would be better in this slot when facing swarm aggro.
the 3-3 Wasteland-Factory split is something I can't imagine being goog, but many people seem to like it here. Playing without Academy Ruins seems not that great to me. Recurring EE (and crucible or Top;)) is just so impressive. I would stay with the 4-1-1 Factory-Dustbowl-Ruins split (with extra Tolaria West)
I like the Dismanting Blow. I think it is better than Return to Dust, but Blow may be hit by CB too...
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spur Grappler
Now you are getting ridiculus. So no creature without shroud is a concern for us since we run removal for it? Yeah, we run 4 Swords and 2-3 EE and that means that Confidant is not good against us? What are you trying to say?
I never said confident wasn't good against landstill. All I am saying is we run alot of answers already for cards such as confidant and tarmogoyf. Of course dark confidant, would be bad for us since it draws cards for aggro control players. But as long as we run plenty of answers for those threats; I never really seem the need to run spell snare maindeck based off of my testing and yes I have tested spell snare maindeck for awhile in landstill even before people started to discuss seriously about the card. I play landstill where I like to clear the board with wrath of god and then drop a standstill. Or utililize cunning wish to find virtually anything I want while grinding out games with counterspells and removal/defense enchantments(Moat and/or Humility). Then finish the match off with decree of justice either hardcasting or cycling it.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@3deuce: You don't run enough win conditions. 4 spell snare makes me want to bunch babies. Hey, that mana base looks familiar. You are right, we are sick of new lists. :cool: is that good enough?
