So far random EDH shit has done admirably for me. People just don't know how to react to it, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
@Arianrhod: Nice to see the Empath is working out for you.
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So far random EDH shit has done admirably for me. People just don't know how to react to it, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
@Arianrhod: Nice to see the Empath is working out for you.
Playset of autographed English Rhinos up for grabs. Send me a PM.
Pimp my rhino, lol. Nailed it.
Yo, update from across the pond. There was a legacy tournament with 44 attendees (I couldn't make it -.-)
Scapewish fit with two maindeck slaughter games won the event, and junk pod fit also made top 8.
Here are the lists for anyone that cares:
http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2016/0...p-8-decklists/
That Pod-list runs the craziest manabase I've ever seen. OMG.
That's me. Slaughter Games was Maindeck because of the number of Miracles I expected and for better outs to combo (played Dredge once, Combo Lands twice, Miracles once).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Congrats on the result! I would love to read a report (if you have the time and feel like writing one, ofcourse).
How did the manabase perform for you?
Holy shit, a blink of an eye and the world passes by...
Congrats to you and the Pod Pilot ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I bet you lose those Rhino's pretty quick. I'll let you sign my Jap Signed ones if i'd ever stumble upon you.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
People got to give cards a chance before discarding them. I mean, Gurmag Angler wtf... like that shit is ok, but it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
One important aspect of the build how i see it, is that it doesn't focus on a specific meta, but has the ability (so i believe) to perform in a random/wider field.
Rather then tweaking it for a specific meta i was looking for something that focusses more on what it is good and and grabs the most flexible of sideboard cards. Maybe this way i loose some against certain decks, but may have a better perfomance on overall at the end of the day. This is my philosophy towards the build.
That Delver, Miracles and SneakShow meta, if i assume it is consolidated to those decks only i would probably play a completely different build, say PFire NicFit, but: I can understand if you'd want to stay true to that build so i'll limit myself to minor changes.
Ethersworn Cannonist; is the least useful card here, so that opens up 2 slots in the board.
Liliana of the Veil; i do not think she is that terrible vs SneakShow and vs Miracles. Imagine having both Teeg and Liliana out against SneakShow. Anyhow, against Delver i would board her out, but she present's us an out against big dudes like Emrakul on a SnT.
Painful Truth's; Against Hymn and against Lightning Bolt i will board this card out. Every point of life will be important against Grixis and against Hymn you'd probably want to be hellbent with SDT floating possible answers.
Deathrite Shaman; Not having those main makes us focus on our true plan game 1. Because our focus will be ramping on lands with Vet/Therapy and Courser/Nissa/Top follow-up we generate a hig velocity and can overwhelm our opponent with quick Rhino's, while generating cardadvantage and keep the board clear. Deathrite Shaman is more a jack-of-all-trades, but with a low impact. G2/3 it can act as a Veteran Explorer replacement rather then Carpet of Flowers and be a treat on it's own.
Deathrite Shaman should be something of the following: Removal magnet, non-symmetrical mana dork, early pressure/clock, graveyard hate and/or lifegain. While being able to fullfil these roles, more often then not i found it's effect underwhelming or unreliable. On the other hand, against certain matchup's it's presence is more important. Ralf actually suggested running DRS on the board not to long ago, but i did that back in 2012 when i was struggling against Miracles and was reminded by him asbout that. So this opens a more focussed gameplan G1 with added tools G2/3.
That said; I'd run a Pithing Needle and an Extirpate instead of the Ethersworn Cannonist. Peedle is obvious, but Extirpate specifically because it dodges countermagic from SnT and Miracles which can give you a slight edge.
Board plans:
Delver
-1 Karakas
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Painful Truth's
(-1 Veteran Explorer)
+4 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Pithing Needle
(+1/2 Golgari Charm)
Miracles
-3 Veteran Explorer
-4 Cabal Therapy
-1 Courser of Kruphix
-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+4 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Extirpate
SneakShow
-3 Veteran Explorer
-3 Pernicious Deed
-3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Courser of Kruphix
-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
-1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
-2 Siege Rhino
-1 Path to Exile
+4 Deathrite Shaman
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Extirpate
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+2 Golgari Charm
I already wrote one - it's on page 166, post 3314.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Manabase was fine. I had issues against double/triple Ports in the Lands and Death and Taxes games, but I don't think changing the manabase would solve that. The main notes I had were:
- Massacre wants to replace Deluge in the wishboard
- STE was pretty bad due to only 5 basics. I think I'd rather have a second Wood Elves
- Primeval Titan was okay but a lot of the time when he won me the game, basically any large beater would have done so (thinking of trying Dragon Broodmother next time since Broodmother is very resistant to Liliana and makes blockers for Marit Lage).
- I want a third Needle / fourth Surgical / more sideboard slots. Thoughtseize might get cut but it helps a lot against Storm.
- 2 maindeck decays / 1 decay 1 kgrip sideboard felt okay. Could maybe cut the Krosan Grip. If I need to deal with a Batterskull or a Leyline of Sanctity I can always wish for Pulse.
Great job, bud. I think you want broodmate over broodmother. less mana intensive and better beater. K-grip doesn't seem necessary, theres just better cards to replace it like pulse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I run a k-grip in my bug midrange and when I had my bug fit deck. It is nice to be able to hit top and bskull (plus If you are on 3 deed against dnt grip takes care of revoker with mom) without any response. Pulse is good too and I think it should be in the 75 but grip is totally valid.
I agree with this logic. Kgrip also comes in handy when you just need to nuke a specific target but don't want to burn an abrupt decay and/or pop deed. Against DnT especially, there are times you can shoot down vial before they get started (freeing up your mana from being ported over the next X turns) or can split-second destroy an equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
@Bobmans: thanks for the feedback. You got me thinking about a lot of things. I'm not opposed to altering your list. Idk if I'd go Jund for my meta, even if it's a better call on paper. I'm still missing some cards and just don't have the knowledge to sequence spells/plays properly. Very comfortable with Junk colors.
Feeling comfortable with playing a list/color is probably more important then the list itself. Edit: ok this sounds weird reading it back. Playing a worse list with more confidence is better then playing a better list without confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Anyhow, if your not locking on to the specific list then i will probably change it to this:
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
1 Choke
4 path is a lot but I think its incredible in the deck.
why aren't you running any pulse or vindicate? Deed does a lot of work but sometimes you need something that can't be stifled, or hits lands or is 3 mana kill all those bitches.
Only 3 vet? we want that card asap in most matchups so we can do our thing. 4 vet/2 drs seems ideal.
Dryad arbor with 3 deed seems like a bit loose.
I'm a firm believer that this is THE BEST deck to play painful truths in legacy.
THESE ARE ALL SUGGESTIONS AND IN NO WAY MEAN TO UNDERMINE DECISIONS PREVIOUSLY MADE.
4 path's means you can keep pushing creature combat, even against bigdude.dec your able to keep initiative or are able to find one pretty fast, it creates momentum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
1 Vindiwhateverremoval is good, A. it is only one and B. i found pushing ground combat often can just ignore targets for that removal.
3 Vet, there is room for 4, but since Warden has 2/3 decks where you board them out anyway. MD is 60 so going 61 is not a problem here.
Dryad Arbor does T-R-I-C-K-S and makes Meren so much better.
Agreed on Truth's, but i felt that with the match-up's going for some MD flexibility it be better to run other cards. Plus i still feel Nissa and Courser to match the decks plan better as CA rather then Pruths.
Undermine
I hate courser. he only dodges bolt and he just reveals everything you draw, of course if you have like running lands he nets you advantage but of course pruths is 3 cards right then and there for 3 mana(I know you cant gsz for it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I guess arbor is cute.
I know we always argue this and neither party listens much to the other but 4 rhinos or find a new deck.
Hahaha, I love it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I agree that if the meta is blue heavy (every meta?) then 1-2 3 mana removal spells are better than path 3-4. As for truth, I hate it, but I'm still testing with it since you all seem to love that hype card. For the last week I've been playing with a single truth AND a single skeletal scrying: this one is awesome as a one of (more than one interferes with meren, drs, therapy, witness), the instant is very very relevant against grindy games or against control.
I had some issue's concerning Pruth's and not being able to draw cards due to low life. This did come up more then once. Having that said, Courser sometimes lands and falls right into the graveyard leaving you with nothing.. play error? What i am actually saying is that the board needs to allow Courser to stick, same as with Nissa. That can sometimes NOT be what we want at that moment, where you wish to draw a Path and some pressure with Pruth's. That is exactly why i run both in my sig list, BUT that list was not the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I hear ya 4 Rhino's, but still Thragtusk is an all-times heavy lifter in NicFit and deserves a spot against Miracles and is not half bad against Lightning Bolt Delver, Burn, Storm and whatnot. Even if that means cutting down a Rhino.
Speaking of trying to find a new deck... honestly, i tried... even now i keep buying paper and play... and know... NicFit...
Yes, we all speak and forget to listen....Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I am trying confirm or deny that A, Pruth's as a solid card, B, Going for streamlined is solid, and C, Going for a wider meta, at the cost of specific meta's, will pay-off in the bigger picture.
Skeletal Scrying has been on my radar for a while now... Glad to hear some experiences about the card.
Skeletor Scrying? I can get behind that cute tech.
I understand thragtusk is a must but I just feel like moar rhino moar better.
Removal wise, I like:
2 path
4 decay
1 pulse
1 vindicate
3 deed
but then again I like to kill everything forever and then sweep up with my skillerhinos
That's my exact "standard" package of choice. I decided to move deluge in the board because online I need all 3 deeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
deed is just better in many situations but stifle/revoker are big game against deed, sadly.
I do want to try nissa in nic fit. seems strong if you get to flip her and go to valuetown.
with all the miracles, I really want pws in the board like mentor and night errand(new name)
In some way we can compare our removal package and conclude: We do exactly the same with the same intention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
But, what the big difference is between your approach and mine is: I want to consistently draw into the best 1 mana spot removal in Legacy/NicFit, while you want to be able to have an answer to everything. Your cost; Consistency (and thus, momentum in ground combat). My cost; Reach (and thus, leaving more vulnerability). Also, i have a lower manacurve in that regard. Drawing a Path out of a Pruth's requires something else then Pulse/Vindicate mana wise. Simple example, why should i worry about Batterskull, if i can just (keep on to) remove the creatures carrying it. I just have to force Rhino's thru in combat iot win.
Unless you are playing SFM, I'd play Garruk PH instead of Night Errant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Nissa seems decent at best, but I really don't want to waste money on a "expensive" standard card.
I played skeletal scrying for a while before truths got printed. In the early game truths is moderately better, but in the late game scrying is completely absurd, to the point where casting it in the end step is game over.
Sometimes it doesn't even have to resolve. "End step scrying for six? Force of will. Untap green sun's? Well Fuck." Happened a lot. A LOT. Like a fifth discard spell.
EDIT: Omg we could just play entreat the angels and end the game lolllllllllllllll jk
Lol, anyway i never really wanted to play Pruth's in the early game. I'll just give the voodoo bones a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordslinger
Really... Nissa is worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
She doesn't thrill me, and the fact that it's a standard card and her price is gonna fall eventually doesn't help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I'll let Ricardio do the testing online :)
She flips pretty easy and fast. Being able to drop a 4/4 right away is very strong, and next to this; her being able to draw an extra card each turn is pretty big. She does exactly what a walker should do. Contribute in both offense/defense and generate CA. Edit: did i mention she's also a GSZ target? An on demand Thrun of Kruphix.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
nanananananana RICARDIO-MANQuote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Thrun of Kruphix? is that an std? I may get one and try it. all this nic fit talk gets my knickers in a bunch and the only way to unravel them is jam some explorers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
3 duress
2 surgical
2 ethersworn
1 teeg
1 thragtusk
1 garruk relentless
1 needle
1 ajani mentor
2 carpet
1 councils judgment
2-mans:
American Delver 2-0
Miracles 2-1
ANT 2-1
Deathblade 2-0
4c no red deathsper 2-0 (decay, Drs, Pruth, tasigur/ didn't see sfm)
Red Painterstone 2-1
6-0 to cap off the night. I may fill in some blanks if I have time at work tomorrow. Deck seems super strong.
I get by on 4 PtE & 3 Deed. And my 2 Diabolic Intent often also turn into PtEs. And some GSZs do too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Also, Dryad Arbor is not important enough to care about it dying to Deed. It's fine to be reckless with Deed, you've got ways to regrow your shit anyways. Dryad Arbor gives you tons of utility you use when you don't have Deed. Or you fetch it and feed it to Diabolic Intent to find Deed...
Nice result, by the way.
Primal Garruk is cool, but that GGG in its manacost is just brutal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
2-1 miracles? Living the dream I see!
No games?
Is judgment the third 3 cmc removal spell?
Why no teeg main? He is key online against storm elves and even sneak and show in my experience.
Im currently playing a more bomb oriented side without my beloved carpets and its been good against control so far.
Judgement was a throw in sb card catch allQuote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Teeg was more of a liability. he doesnt actually help your win percentage enough and not enough decks in 2mans get rekt by him
carpet has been INSANE. 2 is needed imho
I like where this list is as you can see the record.
12-3 in games; Looks solid, what does the rest look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
2 pathQuote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
2 Drs
2 top
4 vet
4 therapy
4 decay
1 scooz
3 truth
3 deed
1 ewit
1 vindicate
1 pulse
4 Skillerhino
1 meren
1 tusk
1 sigarda
4 gsz
4 windswept
2 verdants
3 swamp
3 forest
2 plains
3 bayou
2 Savannah
1 scrubland
1 karakas
1 ptower
I believe that is the 60.
I basically run the same, with the biggest differences being:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
+1 top +1 teeg (might move this in the sb) +1 scrying - 2 truths
It seems that yours, mine and matts list have been converging to a similar point, with different sb choice to adapt to our own personal play style/meta
Csn you explain your thought process on the removal of games? They have been key vs miracles for me
The beauty of the deck. The sb can always change to allow for flexibility. I only play this deck on mtgo so I have to be ready for miracles and delver X. Albeit the more I play it, the more I want to build it irl. Chances are I will grab the duals and go from there. Needle did a lot of work.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
LOL CONVERGING on PAINFUL TRUTHS. HAHA I GET IT
Punny.
Played a few games last night. Tested a variety of builds and configs. Still haven't played against delver though.
My take-aways:
1. My optimal removal: 3 deed, 4 decay + 2 path + 2 flex [choice of pulse, Vind, toxic, Garruk Relentless]. Other configs weren't able to control match-ups and/or I had holes in the defense. Garruk is very underrated. At worst, he's targeted removal. At best, he straight up wins the game. I classify him as removal because I can usually play him to lightning bolt something annoying.
2. 22 lands feels great. I'm biased towards Arbor. 4 mana is pretty easy to hit. Arbor makes it easier to ramp to 4.
3. The curve tops at 6, but we should shoot for 5. GSZ for Sigarda was not always possible mid game.
4. I want to friendzone Nissa. she wants me to love her, she's better than "mediocre", but I'm just not feeling it. Maybe I'm expecting her to be like Garruk too much. She needs a clear board to be relevant. That hasn't been the case when playing her.
5. I need Qasali Pridemage in the main. Was relevant every game last night. Lost games by not having him.
6. Truths is good (again, didn't test against delver). However, I think it is watering down my gameplan to "gain life, cast truths, hope truths draws something relevant". I don't like how truths warped my gameplan. I feel very lethargic and dependent upon the card.
7. I'm not sure if I should cut Teeg from the maindeck. Necessary evil if I expect miracles and sneak/show? He serves almost no purpose against anything fair.
1. I agree but I choose to have garruk in the side, where hes best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
2. i like 22 as well but not an arbor fan. My carbon footprint is bigger.
3. GSZ is almost always for Skillerhino. there really isn't much above 5 cmc that we want.
4. I saw her played in the GBc fit post and was not in the slightest bit impressed. I will not be trying her for a bit.
5. between 4 decay, 3 deed, 1 vindicate, 1 pulse and ewit, I do not want a 2/2 exalted.
6. drawing 3 cards is great, its amazing at 3 mana. its a refuel/refresh for your hand, not sure how it waters it down or how you think its warped.
7. Teeg belongs in the sb and hes not even that good against sns.
Does somebody in this thread know, why the old Survival lists (especially "RGB Survival Advantage" which ran Cabal Therapy) didn't run Veteran Explorer, but Birds of Paradise instead?
I'd figure the old RGBSA lists have many cards in common with a NicFit Birthing Pod deck and I'd like to resurrect the old RGBSA deck and basically replace Survival with Birthing Pod and tune the creature toolbox.
I wonder if I should replace Birds with Explorer or is there any reason that a Survival deck prefers Birds, while a Pod deck prefers Explorer?