Gotcha. I feel the same way about 4 SFM and only 2 equips.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Printable View
Gotcha. I feel the same way about 4 SFM and only 2 equips.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Is it really that terrible if it means you have an Ugin out..? I mean, ANT doesn't run less tutors b/c it runs only 1-2 Tendrils :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Also, the Archon has officially made Dromoka obsolete.
My first idea was something like 3 rector, 1 ugin in a blue shell with brainstorm to shuffle back unwanted ugin. Not sure what else from blue and white is needed. Clearly ways to make sure deathrite dies. Maybe a cavern to help ensure rector resolves, but therapy can do that too. Preferably you would want something that survives with ugin sweeping, large cmc could be enough, and that interacts with combo since ugin hopefully deals with most other fair stuff. Actually thought-knot would fit that and be castable with colorless from cavern, but that seems both clunky and like a bad mana base..
Some other hardcastable planeswalkers seems great, as suggested before. Either gideon of the trials, in white, or jace in blue. Vraska the unseen and nissa vital force seem good and easy on the mana base. Ensnaring bridge works perfectly with the planeswalker theme and ugin's sweeping (and covers Ugin's weak spot vs colorless decks like Eldrazi and Steel Stompy). It also complements the anti combo suite of gideon vs storm by interacting well with sneak and show. Maybe maindecked otherwise sideboarded.
Maybe something like...
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Ensnaring Bridge?
2 planeswalkers: Jace, Garruk, Nissa or Vraska (or lily, hard to get BB though, like with Jace)
1 Ugin the Spirit Dragon
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg?
2 Snapcaster Mage?
2 Baleful Strix?
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Arena Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
Could maybe skip a land or two if skipping jace and strix..
ANT has PIF /Adnaus too and you can actually hardcast the TendrilsQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I agree that if you have Ugin in play you are probably winning but if you have 3 Rector and 1 Ugin then (barring library manipulation) 25% of the time you will draw the 1 Ugin before you draw any rector and then all the rectors become total bricks, doesn't seem ideal to me
And that is, as you said, why you run Guiles and Libraries :laugh:
Or do like Elves! does and run 2 Ugin :laugh:
Bramble Sovereign is finding it's way into GB for sure. I believe any color combination could play it, but that's where I'm trying it first. Here's what the list is looking like right now.
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Bramble Sovereign
1 Thragtusk
Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard 15
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Duress
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Lost Legacy
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 To the Slaughter
Hi. I'm thinking about Tireless Trackers in rhino-abzan. Do they work well? Are they more as a 'draw' or beatdown part of deck? Is Titania must in for them and how is courser of Khrupix deal with it? Use any other draw? I used sorin, grim nemezis, sylvan library and painful thruths as a 1ofs in 'draw category'.
Thanx for help :-)
Tireless Tracker is a fine card in Rhino lists, if they go unanswered you pull ahead very quickly. They're usually a CA tool, as they'll often die very quickly but will usually at least leave you 1-2 Clues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruby
Titania kinda ventures in the The-Danger-Of-Cool-Things territory. It can potentially kill your opponent very quickly but is very delicate. An opposing DRS or a Lightning Bolt can easily ruin your day, which is not something you want out of your 5 mana cards. You want those to work 100% of the time. So usually you'll run a Sigarda, Host of Herons.
Courser of Kruphix I like, but I'm one of few. I think of it as a Tracker you can use against decks that play Lightning Bolts.
Sorin, Grim Nemesis is cool but probably unnecessary. You can't GSZ for it, which sucks, and in Junk lists you're probably safe topping your curve at 5 anyways.
Junk Fit, in my opinion, is a deck that should aim to generate a lot of CA/card selection. For comparison, this is what I consider to be the card advantage/selection suite for my particular list:
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
I'm omitting Eternal Witness/Meren of Clan Nel Toth as part of that particular list b/c they're highly situational. I also omitted GSZ b/c you'll run 4 of those regardless.
Consistency is one of the things that allow you to close out the game the way you want to as often as possible, so invest heavily in it.
I'll be playing in a 1K on 6/16, taking Rhino Fit. I've been doing a lot of testing and I'm getting super comfortable with the deck. Hope to do well and smash face with 8Rhino.dec.
Good luck!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I'm really seeing how important Deed is to the central game plan. I was trying only 2 copies, but I think 3 must be correct. I know that some folks, especially on Rhinos, use Toxic Deluge because they can recoup some of the life loss and Deluge has an immediate effect on the board. Doran has actually been really decent, giving time against delvers and allowing DRS to smash for 2 (did this in a few games where Rest in Peace was played.) Rhinos hitting for 5 instead of 4 is cutting roughly 1/2 a turn off the clock.
This deck is a drug; several games where GSZ + Vet + Therapy have made for incredibly explosive turns. When I start the turn with 2 lands and end the turn with 6, decimate the opponent's plan with Therapy, and have a Rhino/GSZ to follow up the next turn it's time to question why I wasn't doing this sooner. Fun and competitive, a really good cocktail.
Toxic Deluge in my case has nothing to do with lifeloss or direct impact. It's a concession I make to running 3 Guiles, a Sylvan Library and 3 DRS.
That makes perfect sense. I forget that sometimes my Libraries/DRS get caught up with Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
If moon control becomes more common, (it seems so, at least in my local meta) deed gets better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
True. I was yesterday testing vs storm and monored prison similar to Birmingham winning list and the deed was allstar for me... well, a nightmare for my monored opponent :tongue:
This is a pretty accurate description. Sitting on the other side of the table I just sit there questioning how to answer to those 2 incoming Rhino's while having my hand stripped away...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I don't play the deck myself but I've been playing/playtesting a ton against several versions of the deck.
Yes you have :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Draggo
On monored, that should be a fine MU. As long as you fetch a basic Forest you can to some degree even ignore Bloodmoon. Thank you, GSZ! :laugh:
Yes, but I had to mulligan a lot. You really need pretty solid early hand. We played like 7-9 games and maybe only two of them was without T1 chalice on 1 or magus/blood moon.
This was just my feeling from this testing, didn't met that before.
Deed is also a time-bomb that your opponent has to play around. You set the Deed and see what happens. There are many times you're wanting to nuke Counterbalances, wait for Blinkmoths to come alive, or do whatever and you need a wait and see plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I'm running 3 Deed and 3 Sylvan Libraries because I have always felt that Guile is great, but you never get to draw cards. Selection/filtering is great, advantage is better. It's why I've also loved Painful Truths.
Recall that Deed isn't heavily played outside of this deck, so people aren't really expecting it. It's not like it's 2005 and you're running real Rock. Some decks just can't deal with the Deed.
-Matt
And b/c of that people forget how to deal w/ Deed properly, which makes it even better :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Spot on, I agree. I'm on 2 Library/3 Deed/1 Truths. I was going to drop in another Truths but Liliana, the Last Hope is so good I wanted to make sure I had room for a copy without compromising other slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
So a list...one I'm taking on Saturday:
Doran, the Siege Rhino
Creatures - 18
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Siege Rhino
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Doran, the Siege Tower
1x Dryad Arbor
Sorcery - 9
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Painful Truths
Instant - 5
3x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
Enchantment - 5
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers - 2
1x Liliana, the last hope
1x Nissa, Vital Force
Lands - 20
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x wooded foothills
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Rogue’s Passage
Sideboard
3x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Lost Legacy
2x Pithing Needle
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Bitterblossom
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Maelstrom Pulse
EDITED LIST
@Mr. Safety: Your manabase is both too small and unstable, especially since your list is both increasing in mana cost and colour requirements. You also run too few white sources and the lone Urborg is wholly misplaced. This is just asking to lose games to yourself. You'll either be forced to fetch duals too often, resulting in you getting blown out by a well timed Wasteland (where Nic Fit's ability to invalidate that card is one of the reasons Nic Fit can be a deck in the first place), or will be crippled by both mana and colour screw more than necessary.
Huh...I haven't really had too much trouble, even against wasteland decks and I have flooded more times than I am comfortable with. However, I would take your suggestion and 100% do it due to your experience with the deck. Would you do this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
-1 Urborg
+1 Plains
+1 Swamp
+1 Forest
That gets me up to 22 lands, and I could easily drop the Rogues Passage for a colored source. I'm limited on the number of fetches/duals. I have another Scrubland, but no more on-color fetches (hence the Foothills.)
-1 Urborg, +1 Plains, +2 fetchland should do the trick. Alternatives would involve more duals.
I edited my post, but ok, that seems fine.
EDIT:
+1 Plains
+1 Scrubland (due to availability and color requirements)
What is the best off-color fetch? I figured anything green or black-based is best. I can use Bloodstained Mire or Wooded Foothills.
Always green, if possible. Then black, then white. Getting that basic Forest is very, very important.
Gotcha. I am also assuming Dryad Arbor doesn't count as a land. Correct yes/no?
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Marsh Flats
1x wooded foothills
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Rogue’s Passage
That puts me at 22 lands, but Passage isn't really a land. So is 21 lands enough? I'm really getting tight at this point, finding it hard to get to 60 cards. Is 61 considered a cardinal sin? I would think with GSZ it shouldn't affect consistency too badly.
A hundred percent correct! For deckbuilding purposes Dryad Arbor should always be considered a creature and not a land. A T1 GSZ for Arbor, if you choose to go that route, usually equates to baiting out a Wasteland/spotremoval.
EDITED above, sorry. We're both online at the same time, lol.
No problem. Rogue's Passage should be counted as a land. It produces mana, just not coloured.
61 cards is fine, especially for Nic Fit. It's really not that big of a deal and in Nic Fit the payoff can be pretty damn big.
And some math to explain why:
http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593
Awesome, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
EDIT: I'm going with 61, to hell with it! I can obviously see where flooding could potentially happen, but the payoff with tons of mana is actually really good (Deed + pop-it same turn, Truths + other play same turn, GSZ for anything in the deck.) Nic Fit, as it seems to me, is one of the few decks that can probably go 61 without any real loss of consistency, and actually benefits.
61 is literally your extra bullet or extra land. Doesn't matter. I've played 62 before as well, but let's not go crazy.
I'd love to see a Phyrexian Tower in there if you can spare it. If Bayou is out of reach now, I'd go with:
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x wooded foothills
1x Bayou
1x BG Shockland
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
21 has been fine for me. Or, add more green fetches.
Deeds usefulness varies a lot with your mana curve. When you have a bunch of 4+ CMC threats the card gets a lot better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I play 60 these days with 23 land (including a Dryad Arbor). It took me literal months to find a configuration that would allow me to do that. I think that in general, 61 is the easiest spot to be at in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
You haven't been seeing too many mana-screwed games at 21 lands? I was on 20 lands + Arbor and I was flooding occasionally, screwed occasionally, mostly ok. I think with 21 it would be ok, but I am leaning heavily on the experience factor from Echelon and Brael. If they say 22 lands + Arbor, that's what I'm doing lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I unfortunately don't have the Phyrexian Tower, if so I would include it easily over Rogue's Passage. I do have the Overgrown Tomb, but I have found that my life total is a fairly big buffer in this deck. With 4 Rhinos I could see it being ok, I guess. I'm curious why I would need more than 1 Bayou though? Isn't the emphasis supposed to be on basic lands? I would think another fetchland would be better than a shockland.
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Rogue's Passage
(1x Dryad Arbor)
So functionally 22 lands, all of the colors settled. I have 15 initial green sources, 14 initial black sources, 13 initial white sources. Green and black are obviously the more important colors with white coming in 3rd based on colors/curve. This seems stable to me, if not perfectly ideal. Obviously on-color fetches like another Marsh Flats/Windswept Heath would be better, alongside a 2nd Bayou. In the absence of those I think this should be ok with the 4th Forest, probably better than Overgrown Tomb/Blooming Marsh/Woodland Cemetery.
EDIT: Copied and pasted from Echelon's Dark Confidant list
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
The difference is Tower + Stronghold, of which I have neither and I am subbing in Rogue's Passage. I would be doing the same, albeit without perfect fetches: 10 fetch, 3 dual, 8 basic, 1 utility, 1 ????? (I put in a basic Forest)
I don't see the need for another dual land if this is the template.
Friend of mine Top 8'ed at yesterday's Knightware Staples tournament. He went 4-0 double ID and lost in the Quarterfinals to Lands in game 3. List can be found in the link below.
http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic...018legacy.html
Most do 21+Arbor. I think that's fine if you can't figure out the cut. Like I said, it took me actual months to figure out the cut to get my build to 60 and while I do like it, I'm not even 100% convinced that it was the right call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
If it helps, here's my manabase:
Land (23)
3x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
5x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Or to put that in more general terms so that it's applicable to your 3 color build: 3 duals, 7 basics, 8 fetches, 5 utility lands. But keep in mind that I run Crop Rotation so I'm higher on utility.
Being only 2 colors allows for you to be more effective with basics as well. That third color rewards, but is also a cost (as I'm finding out.) If nothing else, this foray into Nic Fit has really made me pay attention to building mana-bases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The deck is more fun in 3 colors but more effective in two in my opinion. For most builds I don't think the third color actually adds anything that's not already available in just GB aside from the fact that GBw is a little easier to build into for people new to the deck since it's less expensive oddly enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Yeah, manabases should be 21 or 22 lands big. As a general rule of thumb if my curve ends at 5 I stick w/ 21 lands, if it ends at 6 or I run multiple 5-drops I go for 22.
Edit: With the release of the new Archon and Bramble Sovereign I have an updated Junk list. Didn't manage to cram it all into 60 cards so I went and added a 61st. Here goes:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Bramble Sovereign
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Archon of Valor's Reach
4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
The sideboard hasn't changed.
Curve now tops out at 6. As such I added an extra land, and b/c of that I swapped Courser of Kruphix for Nissa, Vastwood Seer. The Archon took the place of the 2nd Tireless Tracker and Meren has been replaced for a Bramble Sovereign. Ideally I'd still run a Courser, but in what space?