Thank you.
We talked with Yan last night and agreed that Divert is good sideboard or even main deck option instead of 1 Spell Pierce if meta is heavily infested with BUG & Jund.
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Thank you.
We talked with Yan last night and agreed that Divert is good sideboard or even main deck option instead of 1 Spell Pierce if meta is heavily infested with BUG & Jund.
So mainly against hymn? I have never been a huge fan of divert. It is great early but later I'm the game it gets harder to gain value out of, making it a horrible top deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by syfilisx
I have also found the people who run it have the few situations when it is incredible stick out I'm their mind rather than the Times when you shuffle it away our have it stick in the hand.
For a deck like this it might be a better option to have an all around solid card like spell pierce rather than a card that is sometimes amazing sometimes completely dead.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk
There is also a card called Abrupt Decay in those mentioned decks, which is "kind of a killer" against this deck. Spell Pierce is only a good fodder for Misdirection in that situation. I don't suggest anyone to put Divert in your main deck in an unknown meta, but if you know for sure that you'll be playing against various BUG and Jund decks, then I could accept it. This deck also has Stifles and Wastelands, which makes mana denial a very potential plan, so it's highly likely that both Spell Pierce and Divert maintain their value through the midgame too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maagler
I'm not currently playing Divert in the board, because I'm mostly testing for unknown meta games and I don't feel it's part of that configuration.
Congrats on your finish and thanks for the post. Would you mind sharing the rest of your board plans?Quote:
Originally Posted by syfilisx
Complete Sideboarding plans are Yan's intellectual property and I don't feel comfortable sharing them all to the world, also you need to play exactly 75 that Jan plays to get value out of it. I believe you can ask him for them and then he's up to decide.
Saturday smaller GPT at Jyväskylä Finland was dominated in Swiss 5-0 by this same list, the Yan's deck, played by his friends.
But now we are off to tell story about bad beats and 6 round GPT for bit disappointing 3-3 record. My list is same than last time few posts ago, except -1 Divert, +1 Sulfur Elemental sideboard, -1 Spell Pierce +1 Divert main, because I was excepting lot of decay.
Round 1 - Death & Taxes
G1: Aggressive Delver beats got hosed after second Delver won't flip in like 5 turns. I counter two stoneforge mystics, but 2x Serra Avengers wind me down, only drew one bolt and had to use it on his mother he played when having two avengers.
G2: I play Grim Lavamancer & Delver, opponent has great anwers like Ratchet bomb & Jitte, but I Needle them both. Sulfur Elemental takes two for 1, and I kill him with few creatures and factory.
G3: Long and grindy game, where he may have make slight mistakes by his own words, Lavamancer is all star again and Sulfur elemental comes to make a visit to turn game to me.
Sideboard: -4 Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Divert, -1 Misdirection, -2 Trickbind, -1 daze on the draw/-1 Force on the play. +3 Sulfur Elemental, +3 Pithing Needle, +3 EE, +1 Grim Lavamancer, +1 Crucible
Round 2: RUG Delver
G1: I go T2 Dreadnought with misdirection protection, he has daze & force of will, I was maybe a bit hasty and didn't draw anything but lands after that. Slight mistake, good luck for him.
G2: I get 3 Dreadnoughts along the game, first one gets EE (who plays that in RUG?), second one gets Krosan Grip and third one just isn't enought when he has two 6/7 goyfs. He draws all the answers, I draw none of permission, not really a fair game.
Sideboard: -3 Grim Lavamancer, -4 Bolt, +3 EE, +1 Crucible, +3 Pyroblast/Red Blast
Round 3: MUD
G1: I hit him to three, I have lethals on board, he has only 1 out in deck when I ran out of permission, of course he draws it and gets in a wurmcoil hit. I still have one out myself too, one of my four lightning bolts, but I don't draw it or brainstorm to look for it.
G2: Chalice for 1, I have brainstorm and force of will, but I am reluctant to pitch brainstorm since I have no good action in my six, I brainstorm but don't hit blue card. Next ten cards are not any use, I lose. (I got to play standstill or two to dig, since I had factory and he had no beaters)
Sideboard: -3 Grim Lavamancer, -3 Spell Pierce/Divert, -1 Misdirection. +3 Pithing Needle, +3 EE, +1 Crucible
Round 4: TES
G1. He has no Tutor and I disrupt him just enough for him not to find it, before Delvers kill him. I chain two standstill to draw more disruption and waste him very tight on mana.
G2. Grindy game where we both mullingan, I keep him of action with 3 dazes and few wastes, ending up into situation where he has carpet of flowers and I have 3 volcanics in my hand and beat face with factory that I activate with wasteland. He draws into ten goblins, but I rip one of my 3 EE's to kill them off after 1 hit and land Delver + Standstill, that's game.
Sideboard: -3 Grim Lavamancer, -1 Bolt, -1 Misdirection, -1 Divert, +3 EE, +3 Pyroblast
Round 5: Esper Blade with Strixes
G1: I thought he was on Bug Delver, I kept hand with few wastelands, mandland & 2 Delvers. I draw third Delver, just beat his face with 1/1 Delvers, because EE on Zero came down early, when confident that I can afford losing one delver I flip one, so he destroys that one, I play third one and flip both to kill him fast. He was struggling to get to mana's with two wastes and one stifle I think.
G2: He has everything, like 2 Stops, 1 Strix, Snapcaster and discard. GG... I have needle for his jitte, but doesn't really help
G3: He has 3 Stops & Snapcaster. What a joke :) I didn't have any change against these draws g2 & g3.
Sideboard: -1 Misdirection, -4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, -2 Trickbind, -1 Force of Will, -3 Daze/-3 Force of will, depending on play/draw.
+1 Crucible, +1 Grim Lavamancer, +3 Pyroblast, +3 Sulfur Elemental, +3 Pithing Needle
Round 6: Dark Maverick
G1: I hit him with Delver, counter some key spells, then bolt him to face. My life: 20, 19, 20, 17, 13, 12 (He stops Lavamancer), his life 20, 19, 18, 17, 14, 13, 10, 7, 4 - Dead. I played this game mostly on one dual land, but he didn't have wasteland.
G2: Kind of epic Grind, involving all my three EE, Pithing Needle, Crucible, Factory & 3 Lavamancers.
I end game on 2 life, when I had calculated how I survive his gigantious Knight hitting turn after turn, I get to stabilise when he runs out of wastelands and just chump with factory every turn while Lavamancers grind away his life.
Sideboard: -4 Delver, -2 Spell Pierce, -3 Daze, -2 Trickbind, +3 Sulfur Elemental, +3 EE, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Misdirection, +1 Crucible, +1 Grim Lavamancer
Overally I was happy with deck and my plays, but bit disappointed that few of the opponents had better luck than me today. :)
Cheers,
Jani
I haven't played dreadstill in a long time (like 6 or 7 years), but I thought it might be a decent choice right now. I have been testing it, and it actually did way better than I though it would. I went 7 and 2 in testing. The first loss was against patriot. I should have countered the turn one delver in game three. I had a naught in play, and we were both on three life. It was close. The second loss came from the lands deck that focuses more on dark depths as opposed to the traditional forty some lands build that came in first in the last open. In this match I should have used the surgical extraction to get rid of the life from the loam. Here is the list I have been running. I would feel pretty good bringing it to a tournament (possibly a few changes), but that doesn't mean I would do really well. I haven't tested it enough to know how it will perform.
I beat dream halls combo, TES, painters combo, rug delver, u/r delver, miracle control, and burn. I need to play against esper deathblade and Team America still. Here is my list.
Lands
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Volcanic Island
// Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Dark Confidant
// Spells
3 Standstill
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
1 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thoughtseize
1 Trickbind
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Divert
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
To be fair, I was not running reb and volcanic island when I lost to patriot. I am wondering what a better s/b might be. I had gilded drakes and edicts, but I never faced show and tell. I had four thoughtseize main, so I know this deck's s/b can be made to better combat the meta because I never used half of it.
After thinking about the s/b more, I think this may be what I am looking for:
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Divert
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Torpor Orb
The torpor orbs may be good against Death and Taxes, and possibly have some application against Team America. Hopefully, today I can find some people to test these decks against me, plus a few others that might be typically played against in a tournament.
I was also wondering if anyone had tested this yet, and what your thoughts might be. I would also be interested in opinions in general or advice.
Okay, back from Paris with quite a bit of disappointment. Not with the deck, but with myself. The list was the same as few pages ago, so I just jump in to the action.
I had two byes, so I used the time I had to cruise around the hall. I saw a lot of BUG Delver, D&T, S&S and Storm. A lot more tribal decks than I expected too. I noted myself that I didn’t see any Jund, which I was more than happy about. I didn’t take many notes so this will only include the main points.
Round 3: Punishing Jund (2-1, 3-0)
Opponent starts the game with Badlands into DRS. I have removal for his threats and manage to put up a decent fight but his engines are just too much. Second game I get to draw some cards with Standstill and counter or burn his threats. He has 5 cards in hand when I go for the desperate Dreadnought, I have only FoW and no other cards after that. He cast Thoughtseize and I’m pretty sure this game is over, but after that he passes. I attack, he draws and we are off to game 3. I can’t understand how lucky I got. Game three I keep a cool hand with 3 Wasteland, Misdirection, Standstill, Brainstorm and Spell Pierce. He goes just dual pass. I draw Dreadnought and waste him. He plays fetch and I draw my Volcanic. Next turn he plays another land and lands a Goyf. I draw Stifle and keep wasting him. Next turn he misses a land drop and I waste him again back to 0 lands. Next turn I land my Dreadnought and the turn after Standstill. He finally finds land to crack my Still with discard, but only sees double Misdirection with loads of blue cards, which he can’t beat.
Round 4: Merfolk (0-2, 3-1)
He tells me he had 3 byes, so I put him on one of the Delver decks, thinking he probably isn’t a regular legacy player. Turns out I was right about him being not that into legacy, but his choice was even more streamlined. First game he just runs over me, nothing I could have done. Second game I punt big time. He starts with Adept into Lord of Atlantis. I go for the Dreadnought with Trickbind. Next turn he casts Reejerey and attacks with both fishes. For some reason, I don’t block the lord. After the game, I tell him about that and he admits that he thought it granted islandwalk for every merfolk. I’m pissed at myself.
Round 5: Belcher (2-0, 4-1)
Match against a fellow Finnish player and I know what he’s playing. This isn’t a fair match, because I can safely mulligan to 5 to find my FoW. Next game I do the same and this is over quickly.
Round 6: BUG Delver (0-2, 4-2)
I draw really bad both games and just die to random creatures. I can’t even remember how it went exactly, but my deck just refused to deliver. Nothing I could do about this, so it was pretty easy to put this one behind me.
Round 7: BUG Delver (2-1, 5-2)
He beats me in game 1 the same way the last guy did. I do the same boarding, but this time the games go according to the plan. Game two I remove all his guys, resolve 3 Standstills and him with Delvers and Lavamancers. Next game I do pretty much the same, except he manages to remove my threats too. I get him empty handed and finally go for the Dreadnought. He has only 2 Goyfs, which are too small. Next turn I double waste him to one land and he shows me the Decay from the top of his deck and extends the hand.
Round 8: ANT (2-1, 6-2)
I don’t remember if I won game 1 or 2, but those were the kind of games that they usually are. Third game though, was quite epic. I beat him with factory for few turns, but I’m drawing blanks after blanks. He has many lands in play, so my tempo counters are useless. Then he goes for it and plays rituals into double LED, discard Past in Flames and cast it. I brainstorm but only find one Stifle and EE. I put the EE back on top and let it resolve. He starts casting his rituals again and I just drop my cards on the table and say “ok” to everything. I do this, because I see clearly that he has 2 Tutors in his grave and he has the game if he plays correctly. Luckily he doesn’t and plays exactly into my trap. He cast tutor and I go “yea yea” and then he slams the Tendrills on the table. I Stifle. Then he casts the second tutor and goes for 36 Goblins. He passes and I show him the top card of my library. I ask if he has any win cons left and if he wants me to beat him down with the factory or not and he scoops. Again I was drawing terribly bad in this match, but it feels almost impossible to lose to any combo deck.
Round 9: Sneak and Show (1-2, 6-3)
First game he goes for quick Show and Tell and drops a Sneak Attack with no mana up. I waste his red source. Then I stifle his fetches for 2 turns but he still manages to find another one. He sneaks in Emrakul and I sack all my permanents and go to 3 life. He is at 13. I play Factory and start the beats next turn. He misses on 1 ponder and draws blanks while I beat him to death with my 2/2. Third game he shows in Emrakul with double back up. Third game I make my second punt of the tournament. I have 2 lands on my second turn, 2 needles in hand, Brainstorm and a REB and some irrelevant cards. I think I reason with myself, that if I cast one of the needles now, I’m safe from everything else except for Emrakul. This is of course the most stupid idea ever. He goes for second turn show into Emrakul and has the FoW for my REB. I can’t know if Brainstorm would have given me one of my 9 outs, but I certainly should have given it a chance. I'm pretty mad at myself after skrewing up such a good matchup.
Sorry for not making it this time, at least I learned some lessons again. I’m also pretty sure I’ll be playing this in the next European legacy GP/BoM that I attend. Nothing is as fun as playing this deck.
Also sorry for my sloppy writing.
// Lands
4 [IN] Island (1)
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [JGC] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
// Creatures
4 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
// Spells
1 [MM] Misdirection
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [JGC] Stifle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [VI] Vision Charm
3 [MMA] Spell Snare
3 [B] Lightning Bolt
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [PLC] Rough/Tumble
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
I got 7th in a local SCG qualifier. I played against the following:
rd 1: burn 2-0
I will both games off the back of standstill. pretty easy matchup.
rd 2: enchantress 2-0
game 1: i get an early nought. he has solitary confinement. he eventually runs out of cards and i am able to attack for the win.
game 2: i play a turn 1 delver. he casts o ring, i stifle it. on my turn 2 i play lavamancer and he plays another o ring, i stifle it. he turn 3's solitary confinement and runs out of cards to fuel the discard.
rd 3: jund depths 0-2
game 1: i play turn 1 delver. he has grove plus punishing fire. turn 2 i play standtill. he rips 3 wastelands in a row. I struggle the rest of the game.
game 2: i play turn 1 delver. i protect delver with snare. i play crucible and factories. he gets dark depths plus stage. i have a submerge but he doesn't have a forest in play.
rd 4: goblins 2-0
game 1: he turn 1 plays vial. i turn 1 delver. he plays land an passes. i flip delverand play lavamancer. he plays piledriver. i end up double lighting bolting him for the win.
game 2: i play turn 3 nought into rough.
rd 5: ID
quartfinals mono red stax 1-2
game 1: he plays turn trinishpere. i never get to 3 lands
game 2: i play turn 1 delver into turn 2 standstill. i am able to spell snare his mizzum mortars. i play another delver and win from there.
game 3: he is on the play and i see: island, scalding tarn, wasteland, nought, vision charm, spell snare, brainstorm. i end up mulling because i am scared of his turn 1 trinispere or chalice for 1. i mull to 5 and keep a hand with one land and turn 1 delver but no fow. he turn 1 plays mountain and passes. i turn one delver. he turn 2 plays chalice for 1. i feel that i should have kept my opener.
overall the deck was awesome. i think that a made a mistake in quarter finals, not keeping my opener. any thoughts or critiques are welcome.
Well, your sideboard is pretty badly equipped to deal with Chalice/Trini-type of decks, since you have no artifact hate and Chalice just wrecks us.
I feel that your reasoning was right on the draw, even if your opener was kind of nutty, but it would have not helped if he had Turn 1 Chalice, you would just have lost. Don't know if I had gambled in that situation and just won if he had not T1 Chalice.
About the list I am bit worried about 4 maindeck Grim lavamancers, but no basic red source, few wastelands can do good job on turning off lavamancers.
I would like to get some input on the list I have been developing as of late. I am curious as to if 4 of Dreadnought is ever a problem for you guys, you seem to all run 4 and I find that I don't always have the stifle and it can be a pretty bad top deck sometimes. I want to play it because I find it is a very good board position against a TNN, but I don't know if 4 seems to be the right amount for my deck. Hopefully you guys have some information that will sway me, and opinions on my deck as a whole.
4x Delver of Secrets
1x Grim Lavamancer
2x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Standstill
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Dismember
1x Misdirection
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
2x Island
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
3x Wasteland
Sideboard
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Flusterstorm
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rough // Tumble
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Spell Pierce
2x Submerge
1x Swan Song
@JPettie
Your list look solid, or at least acceptable. Quite different from what I or few others are playing, but I don't doubt it still works. I would personally go with 4 noughts, even in your list, maybe also adding additional 1-2 of your personal preference on ways to cheat it in (charm, trickbind, torpor orb). I do like snapcaster too, but it is competing with lavamancers for the slots, so at least for me it's a clear choice. I feel it will mostly be flashing back Bolts anyway, so might as well be playing the guy which doesn't need the bolt in the grave. Okay, it might be more versatile card, but that is the thing that you mostly want from him. Having 4 Dreadnought main also allows you to easily board out some or even all of them in certain matchups, where they don't do enough. Mainly against those decks that will surely take the 2:1 that you are offering. Game 1 it is usually a surprise so baiting removal with other threats usually does it, anyway no-one is going to expect seeing dreadnoughts these days.
From your board, I would suggest EE or Shattering Spree over the Smash. EE has wider aplications (Rough f.e. kills most of our dudes too, so I don't like it that much) and Spree can dig you out of bigger holes against those artifact decks. Other that, pretty solid.
Ah, and for your question. Of course it happens that sometimes you have Dreadnought and no way to cheat it in, but that's what you get when playing a 2 card combo. I still like to maximize my chances of drawing both in the first game, or the games that I really need them. Sometimes it's a blowout and sometimes it just sits in your hand. Then if you want to look at something more "solid", you can always try Trinket Mages with only 1 Nought ;) I would so love to see that work again :)
I was wondering what other Dreadstill players think about this deck. I have been working on it for a while now.
// Lands
5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
// Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
1 Trinket Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
// Spells
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Torpor Orb
2 Counterbalance
2 Misdirection
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Blood Moon
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Torpor Orb
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Standstill
SB: 1 Swan Song
Excluding man-lands while playing with top eliminates most of the off color mana draws while allowing for blood moon to be played. Grim Lavamancer is a must because of deathrite shaman. The standstills are only good against combo without man-lands, so I put them in the s/b. The torpor orbs are good for getting a nought in play while shutting off triggered abilities caused by creatures entering the battlefield. Torpor Orb also frees up your stifles. The academy ruins and trinket mage help to keep the noughts coming. The s/b has shattering spree which is good against equipment. Let me know what you think.
Has anyone ever tried out the b/u list with Tombstalker and vision charm? I have gone x-1 with it both random times I decided to run it for fun. I'm starting to think it might just be a real deck. To clarify a bit for those unfamiliar, vision charm is an awesome card in the deck since it can put cards in the yard for Tombstalker or act as that stifle you don't have if you want to play the tempo game (daze/stifle/wasteland) and are essentially pretending to be rug delver, which my list actually does quite well. I can post a list if anyone is interested. Anyways I was just wondering how ya'll felt.
I've been playing Vision Charm in the UR Version. I think it's good as a 1-of, because it's another Stifle as well as a way to defend the Dreadnought, which is always useful in this post-Abrupt Decay world.
Going with a more tempo-plan here. I wanted to adopt some of the RUG Delver gameplan, but with Tombstalker as a form of mid-late game damage. Vision charm is awesome here. It protects Dreadnaught from STP/Abrupt Decay and it enables turn 2 Tombstalker and it is Stifle 5,6 and 7 for the Dreadnaught trigger. Comments?
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Tombstalker
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Vision Charm
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
Hey guys, so I am going to try and revive this thread. I am a long time legacy player and played dreadstill a few years ago and loved it while it lasted. Looking to put it back together to play in my local gauntlet and some regional tournaments. After reading almost every page on this thread, there are a few topics I wish to provide my insight on.
UR vs UB
Ghastly Demise was a great card when black creatures weren't flooding the format. Since Bob and DRS are in quite a few decks now, it just doesn't make sense to run black when red gives you bolt, lavamancer, and sideboard tech (will discuss below). I know there are arguments for discard effects and other removal effects such as diabolical edict, however I just feel red is strong at this point.
Vision Charm (VC) vs Misdirection(MD)/Diver vs Apostles Blessing (AB)
If I had to rank these, it would go AB > VC MD/Divert. AB saves all your creatures at the cost of 2 life, VC is great as an extra stifle effect, however is extremely linear, and MD/Divert while have multiple uses, just aren't the right cards to save your dudes. Keep in mind there has to be another permanent on the battlefield to MD abrupt decay to.
True Name Nemesis
We have a 12/12 trampler....I don't see a problem here. In any event, you can stifle its ability. Enough said.
I want to comment on Yan's list. I think for the direction he takes the deck, that is as optimal as you are going to get and kudos to Yan. However, this deck is capable of very quick kills and I am going to try and take the deck in a different direction. UR Delver is a real legacy deck and just recently played 2nd at SCG L.A. Having a somewhat transformative sideboard to UR delver can completely catch people off guard and can run through so many decks.
If I were to pick a list to play, I would choose Yan's list with the following changes:
-change all MD effects to Apostle Blessings
Run this as a sideboard:
1 crucible of worlds
2 surgical extractions
3 pyroblast
2 price of progress
3 goblin guide
2 apostles blessings
2 sulfur elemental
With this sideboard, you can go from fast, to faster and take games before your opponents cam react. I am going to be running this deck over the next few weeks and will post results from local play and tournaments.
You can stifle what ability exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
@bryanzoll:
Thanks for the heads up and kind words, always feels great to hear that I might be doing something right with the deck :) Also sorry to all that I'm not really active on the writing side here on the source. Well, also nothing much to add, the deck as it is, is a work of many years and I feel something big has to happen to the general metagame for me to change my list. I'm totally fine with one AP instead of Misdirection though, because this kind of nuances don't really change the basic concept, only reinforce those little specific moments that you want to shine in. Definitely like Apostle's Blessing though, just I personally like Misdirection even more ;)
Transformational sideboard might be great if you are expecting a lot fair/midrangy decks. Have to probably test something close to that myself too if I can find the time. At least I'll do some brainstorming how it would work against various other decks.
One note though, Stifle doesn't really interact in any way with TNN, but we don't really care anyway. 'Nought tramples, Delver flies and 'Mancer shoots.
But anyway, thanks for everything and keep us posted with your results. I think Jani (syfilisx) went 4-0 again with the list a while ago, just heard about it briefly though.
EDIT: saw your PM Bryan, answered :).
Also, out of context, I'm very close to finishing the whole deck in German :P, missing only 3/75.
Yes, Went 4-0 in local tournament with 20 people.
Matchups were:
Sneaky Show: 2-1
I lost game 1, since 2 standstills draw into lands and my only clock is 2x Grim Lavamancers, he's at 2 when he Emrakuls me. G2 & G3 I show him what this deck is about.
Bug landstill 2-1
My friend playing our deck, pretty bad matchup, but he manages to flood out g1&g3
Rug Delver 2-0
I waste him out of colored mana each game and fetch basics, there's nothing he can do. G1 I cast only nought of the day.
Tes 2-0
Opponent goes for goblins both games, i stifle g1 and have EE G2. Also have hands loaded with counters, which opponent compliments me both games when probing.
I felt pretty pumped about deck, matchups were pretty good though.
While writing that response I never confirmed the actual ruling on TNN and turns out I was incorrect about its ability. TNN does not have a triggered ability therefore cannot be stifled.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
I spoke briefly with Yan and gathered some input from him in regards to the proposed transformational sideboard.
Here is where I currently stand with it:
SB:
2 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Apostles Blessing
4 Goblin Guide
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Pyroblast
I like the 2 Vortex over the 4th lavamancer + X because in the sideboard plan, the goal is to kill them as quick as possible and life gain effects will only allow them to reach mid/late game. It stops batterskull and turns griselbrand into a 7/7 flyer.
Wouldn't it make more sense to just take the Blessings and Sulfur Elementals out? I would think that if you're going the transformational route, you'd want to push that as much as possible. I would test out Chain Lightning in their stead and/or max out on Price of Progress.
The only thing I can't really figure out is which matchups become much better by doing this, maybe BUG variants and Jund?
I can see cutting the blessings, but elementals are needed against death and taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
I do acknowledge that D&T is a pretty miserable matchup, but Sulfur Elemental is just terribly narrow for my taste. I think you would be better off with Rough // Tumble since it's great against not only Taxes but also Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk, which are all pretty tough matchups in their own right.
I'm not sure if Vortex is where you want to be though depending on your mana base since a 3 drop with RR in the cost can be pretty clunky at times.
Sorry about the double post, it won't let me edit for some reason :,(.
So, I've been brainstorming of a way to make Abrupt Decay decks struggle to keep up with us by overloading on targets for it instead of playing situational gunk like Apostle's Blessings/Divert/Vision Charm. How weird does this list look?
//LANDS-21
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
//CREATURES-11
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
//PERMANENTS-12
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
//SPELLS-16
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Swords to Plowshares
I know, I know, no Lightning Bolts or Delvers seems really strange, but it's just an idea I'm throwing out there. I really think Counterbalance is super strong even with Decay floating around since at worst it's a 1-for-1, both cards being 2 mana so it's not really a beating or anything. The sideboard could be loaded with goodies like Meddling Mage along with the usual suspects, with maybe even Peacekeeper making a long awaited return. Oblivion Ring could also be kinda cute but I'm not sure. I've done zero testing with this build so take this list with a grain of salt. I'm just trying to get everyone's mind flowing in a different direction to see what we can come up with.
(I'm joking about Peacekeeper)
EDIT- So I tried out the list and it isn't good, Dreadnought just doesn't pull his weight if you don't have an overload of counter magic to protect his fat ass. Counterbalance has been good so far, but I'm still not sure about Stoneforge though.
Hey guys, this is what I was testing ecxessively during the last 2 months.
UB Dreadnought
3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Disfigure
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind /// Could be Torpor Orb, but then I should play 2, since one is pretty random
1x Island
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Tropical island
3x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland
2x Ponder
Sideboard
2x Pithing Needle
3x Mizzium Skin /// Could be Apostle's Blessing which might be better against Decay, since it's castable from all lands in the deck
2x Spell Snare (this slot is mostly undecided)
2x Submerge
1x Surgical Extraction
3x Deathmark
2x Thoughtseize
First: This list is mostly mirrored from the UR lists floating around this thread. Therefore it plays out really similiar. The difference is ofc the missing of Lightning Bolt and Lavamancer as well as Sideboard cards with RedBlast-Effects. As replacement we get a stricty worse removal spell in Disfigure but a strictly more versatile creature in form of Deathrite Shaman. As addition, black allows some different directions in terms of sideboard-tech. When testing the UR-Version I was mostly dissatisfied with the sideboard cards, which were bad against the decks which this deck is naturally bad against (Jund, BUG, Maverick/Junk, Stoneblade/DnT). Black gives us discard against Stoneblade and Combo decks. It also offers more efficient tools for creature removal in form of Deathmark.
Overall I really like this configuration - especially the inclusion of Deathrite Shaman which is a much more serious clock under Standstill than Grim Lavamancer.
I like the look of that list, seems good at first glance. I'm still a fan of Vision Charm over Blessing, since it's also a Dreadnought enabler and a Batterskull destroyer. Nice work though, have you considered Darkblast in the side for decks with a lot of small butts? I've always loved the power of the card myself.
Wait...what?! How is DRS a better clock under Standstill than Lavamancer? They are pretty much the exact same clock, both having 1 power and shooting for 2. The only difference is that you can actually play your Standstill in situations when you are actually behind on board, if you have Lavamancer, because you can also shoot their guys. DRS adds two elements, that this deck doesn't really require (mana and life) more. If you still want to go with it, I would suggest Dismember in place of at least some Disfigures. DRS might help with the life loss at least. Bolt is still superior of course, with it's ability to kill players with one mana ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JanoschEausH
Other subjects: On the transformational sideboard, I would too probably try to max out on a full transform. Anyway, the transformation would be to fight against the same matchups that Blessing/Misdirection is already fighting, so no need for those anymore. Vision Charm is btw not so devastating against Batterskull, as it only phases an artifact, not a creature. Still okay though. Roobs list looks quit juicy, too much going on for me though :P I have pondered with some possible meta shifts, and I would probably go almost mono blue with counterbalances in a combo heavy meta, but I don't really see it happening, at least not around here.
Doh, for some reason I always thought that the Skull germ was a black artifact creature, I guess Charm isn't really good in that case. Yan is right, the list I threw up was all over the place and lacked focus, so just ignore it for now... I'm still convinced that Counterbalance is amazing and we need to find a way to have some 3 drops to go along with it. Stuff like Trinket Mage and Crucible is all I can really think of though. Vedalken Shackles has always been awesome but it's not very good these days :(.
Exactly the things I would like to do and the cards I miss playing with :/ Sadly I have tried and tried and the tempoish list just seems to perform better. One possible way would be to drop Standstills and go for balance instead, but again at least for me, that sounds like blasphemy.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
//LANDS-21
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins
//CREATURES-9
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage
//PERMANENTS-10
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives
//SPELLS-20
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Intuition
3 Stifle
1 Trickbind
1 Life from the Loam
My attempt at a more controlling build, I'm gonna do a bit of testing with it and see how it runs. The sideboard is definitely where I'm lost at the moment since this build is radically different than the ones I've recently played (not many to be honest, I'm trying to muster up the courage to bring ol' Still to a tournament). The side obviously needs more help against Taxes and Elves, which is why I have the volc in instead of some other dual
(for E.E @ 3). I'm pretty sure Team America, Jund, Miracles, and Sharldess will also need some help from the sideboard, I have some ideas but not many.
Any suggestions Yan? To be honest, you probably play this deck a lot more than anybody at this point so I trust your opinion.
What I meant by saying DRS is better under Standstill is the following: DRS needs less recources to be effective under standstill. Oftentimes my opponent doesn't crack Standstill at first. Lavamancer is just a 1/1 sausage guy. So your opponent can work on sculpting his hand post-standstill while taking minor beats. DRS provides solid 2 DMG each turn by using only 1 card per activation, while Lavamancer needs 2 cards in your OWN graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
Of course you have a point, when you say you can cast Standstill while being behind. This is not possible with DRS.
But Shaman is also nice in matchups where you need the grave-hate. Against Storm or Reanimator for example. Lavamancer is mostly dead against all decks besides Death 'n' Taxes, Maverick, Elves and to some extend Stoneblade. DRS has just so much more board impact. And the mana producing ability is often nice to have when playing against taxing counters.
I aggree in trying some Dismembers instead of Disfigures. Disfigure was always the card which I liked less about the list.
To be honest, I probably put the most thought in the deck, but don't get to play enough. Luckily syfilisx is doing that for me :D I basically test here and there when I can find the time but mostly I just play in bigger tournaments nowadays.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
I didn't see the Loam at first in your list, so I was instantly going to suggest Crucible. As it is, Loam is probably just better if you are not playing many red cards. I like how the list looks and I'm definitely a fan of Academy Ruins + EE (was just talking yesterday to Jani how I miss playing with those two). I would probably still try to just let go of Standstill in that list (I know, it sounds crazy). More Trinket Mage for me for sure too, maybe shave the Clique, seems a bit random anyway. For me, no matter how much I love Standstill, it doesn't go in to the same deck with counterbalance AND loam. You already have so much card advantage in those too, that it's just not needed anymore and without lavamancers and bolts, you'll have hard time getting to position where it would even be good. It won't be DreadStill anymore technically, but it will be something very similar.
I know I like the control list, I know it makes me warm and fuzzy inside, I know it will be a blast to play. But I also know that it won't be as competent as the Lavamancer list. This guy just kills everything that gets played nowadays and it eats the opponents removal ahead of the real threats. That said, I'm an old school player and been around a long time, so I'm all in for fun brews, so I totally approve this counterbalance-dreadnought idea and I will make a big point that it will probably be a lot fun to play with, just I wouldn't bring it to Legacy GP tomorrow or even next month.
And it's about time for you to grow a pair and take this old lady to a tournament :P I think this deck needs guys like you and Roodmistah to show some love for it. :)
I still don't buy it. Objectively, DRS is a very powerful card, but with Standstill, Lavamancer is just plain better. Even more now that DRS is so widely played. DRS vs. DRS battle can also be awkward as they can always respond to your DRS with their own. With Lavamancer, there is no chance for anything to happen as it's part of the cost. Also it's not that big of a deal to have 2 cards in your graveyard as opposed to instants/sorceries in either, sometimes it will be the exact opposite even. Against a variety of decks, yes DRS is probably more powerfull (honestly don't like the card and I'm not even sure that this is correct in this deck at all) but with Standstill and mostly everything else in this deck, Lavamancer takes the win. It's all about synergy and what the deck needs. I don't want to say that the UB version is strictly worse or something, but it has to do something else to be reasonable choice, than trying to mimic the UR version with inferior cards. Boarding plans for red versions are obviously also better in general, so you can easily kick out those Lavamancers to the board when they are not needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JanoschEausH
I hardly ever play Legacy anymore, although it's picking up a bit around here and if I can find a list I like enough, I'll surely take it out a few times at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
Yeah Crucible doesn't work with the mini Intuition package, that's the main reason I went for Loam. I know the Clique looks random at first, but when you think about it, seeing so many cards a game makes one-ofs much better. Basically he serves multiple rolls just being a one-of, he's brilliant against Stoneforge, he races True-Name, the 4th 3 drop for CB, and a way to snipe out Planeswalkers. I've only play a hand full of games so far but he's actually been a lot better than I initially expected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
Loam isn't really a CA engine in most cases. It's used mainly for the E.E soft lock, or to Wasteland the opponent out after CBTop is online. I think it could be a fantastic way of beating Abrupt Decay, by just Wastelocking them lol. Loam is also pretty nutty with a Sensei's Top or even a Brainstorm.
I get your point concerning Lavamancer, and I would definitely have some in the board. Maybe he could even get pushed in there somehow, but I'm not seeing where just yet. I think this list is actually stronger than it seems against all these crappy midrange decks that we have floating around today. I do forsee Deathrite being a problem for my Loam though, and perhaps Lavamncer is needed even in a control list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
Roodmistah hasn't played Legacy in about a year or so, I've offered him to come with us to the larger sized tournaments when we go but he doesn't seem very interested at the moment. I do know that this is the only deck he ever plays when he does make it outta the cave, so there's still hope :). As for me playing this menace, I'll see what I can do. The only local near me is about 30 minutes away and I've only been twice in the last few months... I gotta convince the crew to start making the weekly trek.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
Thanks for the honest answer, I really appreciate your opinion.
With your explanations, I'd say go with that. Your choices totally make sense. Maybe I would still revisit the Standstills in that list and think, are they really bringing something to it. I personally know that it's hard to let go of that one, as I even have it tattooed on my skin ;) I call that true dedication :P Cutting Standstill would also free up slots for maybe another Trinket Mage, Spell Pierce and something else. Though, this is only my gut feeling and how I felt long time ago playing with balance and standstill in the same deck. So if it does work, I'll stand corrected. For me it's actually quite simple choice: Top-Balance or Lavamancer-Still.
Thanks to you too.
No way, you got a Standstill tatt? You have to post that, f'in schweeet!
Never done this so let's try if it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
As requested, here's some chest for you:
http://oi58.tinypic.com/2lav7yc.jpg
EDIT: not the most quality picture but you'll get the idea anyway. Priceless jaw drops after dropping Standstill and showing this ;)
That's full of epic win. I'm a little jelly, not gonna lie. Is it actually colored in or just black? It's tough to tell but I'd guess black.
Haha, thanks! It's just black with shades of grey. It's around 5 years old so the colour isn't so bright anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob