All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Jander78

Mishra's Workshop being a land (and was legal in the Type 1.5 format that Legacy was built from) makes it much less dangerous than a lot on that list.

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I am not so sure. I am tinkering with Stax/Terra Nova and if you gave me Workshop alongside 3ball, Mox Diamond, Crucible and Bridge would be just hell for this format. I am right now limited by the amount of Mana I have access too on the first turn, and because most of my heavy hitters cost three I can't run Spheres. Give me access to Workshop and I think I could make a 4 Diamond, 2 Opal Terra Nova deck that would make Miracles seem like an enjoyable matchup.

I feel Workshop is one of the more broken cards on the ban list, well deserving of a top 5 spot. (If the Moxen are lumped together.) But hey, if they want to unban it I won't mind. I would love to play my shops more than 4 times a year.

Academy isn't broken in a workshop-style deck. In fact, in said decks, academy is an interesting but not quite "broken" card. I've toyed with a lost of academy stompy lists and they were pretty fun. Same goes for Tezzeret lists, powering out fast jaces and whatsnot make those decks competitive in the format. It's certainly a very interesting card in general which demand deckbuilding around it for maximum potential and has quite a few downsides and angles you can attack it from (artifact destruction, chalices on 1, can be a non-land in certain hands and is generally bad T1, nonbasic and legendary etc...), while pushing cards that are generally not as played (big mana artifacts).

Academy is, however, broken in storm. A UU, sometimes UUU land is not something you want in the format coupled with storm. Maybe you could make a case for it if petal weren't around since at that point you'd have to use subpar moxens for it and storm would be significantly neutered, but it would probably still be way too good.

Take it this way: it is often said that island is broken. U is already the best color. A double island is even more broken.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

One side complained, then Elaine Chase tweeted an apology. Then the other side complained that Wizards were too fast to apologize and they should have stood their ground. Then everybody (almost?) forgot about it. Because who cares.

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Wow, can't belive his card has caused such an uproar. I mean I didn't even get what's wrong here unil I googled it :D

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Academy is in my view, the third most broken land ever printed. The other two being Workshop and Bazaar.

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I think Academy is even more degenerate than those others. Workshop and Bazaar are unrestricted in Vintage and unbanned in Commander (modo not withstanding), While an unleashed Academy would wreak havock in either format. Also I think Strip Mine is feeling a little bit neglected in this conversation.

On the topic of Commander, have you guys seen the new banned list? Poor sales, a new CEO, 4 cards banned in Standard, a sudden change of heart regarding SDT, and now this hands-on gutting of EDH?

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As the developer behind the banned list, I'll give some brief philosophical basis. Broadly, the goal of this banned list is to create a format that's fun for as many players as want to play it. We'll factor in both how strong cards are and how much fun players have both playing with and against them.

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How much longer before WotC comes after our "unfun" strategies in Legacy? If Tabernacle is too "unfun" in a 100 card singleton format, what must they think of it in Legacy? For the first time ever, I am seriously worried about this format. I suspect within 5 years we will see a major banned list overhaul. Caleb Durward style. :frown:

I thought the Commander banlist was maintained offsite by some top men?

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I think Academy is even more degenerate than those others. Workshop and Bazaar are unrestricted in Vintage and unbanned in Commander (modo not withstanding), While an unleashed Academy would wreak havock in either format. Also I think Strip Mine is feeling a little bit neglected in this conversation.

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A good part of the reason Workshop is unrestricted in Vintage is that Trinisphere is restricted. A format where you get to play 4 Trinispheres, 4 Chalices and 4 Workshops sounds like a really "fun" way to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

How much longer before WotC comes after our "unfun" strategies in Legacy? If Tabernacle is too "unfun" in a 100 card singleton format, what must they think of it in Legacy? For the first time ever, I am seriously worried about this format. I suspect within 5 years we will see a major banned list overhaul. Caleb Durward style. :frown:

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The thing is, all of the last three bans were justifiable. We have not yet seen action taken that leads me to think the sky is falling. Only having one stand alone GP a year is a bigger issue than bannings right now.

I don't think a lot has changed for Legacy. Top being taken out is to be expected. When action has to be taken, Wizards always (aside from Pillars in Vintage) targets the enabler, not the enabled. Survival, Pod, Twin and now Top. You could have banned things around these cards, but that's not their MO. Nothing at this point appears to have changed other than a decision to act. Something that even those winning events with Miracles were asking for.

I don't yet feel an argument can be made that Wizard's is changing their stance on Legacy.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

A good part of the reason Workshop is unrestricted in Vintage is that Trinisphere is restricted. A format where you get to play 4 Trinispheres, 4 Chalices and 4 Workshops sounds like a really "fun" way to play the game.

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Fuck yes. A boy can dream.

I think Legacy will be fine. SDT ban was the exception, not the rule. I'd start getting worried if WotC announces a sudden renewed interest in the format along with increased tournament support.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

I thought the Commander banlist was maintained offsite by some top men?

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Still is... You kind of have to look at is as EDH verses numerous Commander variants. EDH is still a casual paper format with a banned list largely based off a social contract.
Commander has fractured into Italian and French. My understanding is that the MtGO Commander banned list is based off the Italian version.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Still is... You kind of have to look at is as EDH verses numerous Commander variants. EDH is still a casual paper format with a banned list largely based off a social contract.
Commander has fractured into Italian and French. My understanding is that the MtGO Commander banned list is based off the Italian version.

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uhh :laugh: okay I thought they were all the same.
I'll just go back to my ignorance of other formats.

^^ are you trying to say that the crucifix in that Waterhouse painting is "BDSM gadget"?

Also, I think Edmund Dulac is a far more obvious influence on Guay's style:

https://www.google.com/search?q=edmu...w=1250&bih=609

DSBM = Depressive Suicidal Black Metal

I wouldn't expect anybody who doesn't listen to black metal to know that though.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

DSBM = Depressive Suicidal Black Metal

I wouldn't expect anybody who doesn't listen to black metal to know that though.

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Completely on a tangent.

How many bands actually are in this genre? Where is this in the sea of metal?

People being mad about Deicide coming out near Easter is hilarious. Are people really this dumb?

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

Completely on a tangent.

How many bands actually are in this genre? Where is this in the sea of metal?

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It's an offshoot of black metal, mostly one man bands that don't play live (few exceptions like Shining, though their sound is quite different to the rest of the genre, just visually and lyrically the same). The sound is monotonous with high pitched shrieks for vocals.

On that map it's probably around the 'black ambient' and 'U.S. Black Metal' area.

Steering slightly back on topic because I care...

...unbanning Frantic Search would have little impact on High Tide being a format player overall. It still completely shits to Leovold and Sanctum Prelate regardless, but it would be a huge boon to the archetype in general and give it some new options. However, the deck will remain in tier 2.5 status at best thanks to the obnoxious creatures and uptick of Chalice, not to mention blue decks are thing. It has no free wins at this point. As one of the foremost experts on the deck -- who may have multiple builds with Frantic Search sitting in notepads on his phone and still tested this extensively -- the deck isn't gaining much steam with this in tow, even with a significant redesign.

As for other decks, there is no reason to run the card. It's expensive and card disadvantage. If you need help powering out a Gurmag Angler with a card disadvantage engine when you already have 3+ lands in play, your deck probably sucks. There are no applications for the card outside of High Tide and maybe, MAYBE, a UGx Enchantress build that tries to stockpile mana with Serra's Sanctum for Words of Wind. But at that point they can just unban Earthcraft because that still is woefully underpowered for a banned card, and Enchantress can win a hell of a lot easier that way too.

In short: unban Frantic Search so I can justify bringing High Tide to an event at least one more time.

Wrong or right, unbanning blue cards might be verboten at this point.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Funny, as I consider Yawgmoth's Will one of the safer cards on the list in terms of Legacy

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Wat? Come on man, I've read some of your other posts, you're smarter than that. Will is straight-up-bonkers-busto in any format where D Rit is legal. Willing for Value, play a fetch, bstrom, do something random is still great. You're talking about Storm going off a full turn earlier on average.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Academy is, however, broken

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FTFY. Academy is 'decks that don't exist today would be T1' good. Sure, it makes Tezz better, and is really, really good in storm, but Academy being legal would probably allow for some kind of Mono-U-Belcher-ish deck in Legacy.

As it stands today, I think the 'safe' unbans are Earthcraft, Mind Twist, and Imperial Seal. I'm not entirely sure if Hermit Druid isn't just the 'it's been there forever' boogeyman at this point. And I would love to see Bargain unbanned to give the format a bit of a shakeup - people spend a lot of time cheating Grizzlebees into play already, I am curious if anyone other than storm would even play Bargain, and at 6 mana, is it that much better than ad-nause?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I am not so sure. I am tinkering with Stax/Terra Nova and if you gave me Workshop alongside 3ball, Mox Diamond, Crucible and Bridge would be just hell for this format. I am right now limited by the amount of Mana I have access too on the first turn, and because most of my heavy hitters cost three I can't run Spheres. Give me access to Workshop and I think I could make a 4 Diamond, 2 Opal Terra Nova deck that would make Miracles seem like an enjoyable matchup.

I feel Workshop is one of the more broken cards on the ban list, well deserving of a top 5 spot. (If the Moxen are lumped together.) But hey, if they want to unban it I won't mind. I would love to play my shops more than 4 times a year.

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Just to be clear, I'm not saying Workshop is safe or not broken in Legacy! I was just stating that it's not #1 on the list of least safe cards to unban. I 100% agree that it's top 5 (if the moxen are lumped together). The only point I was making is that by being a land, you can't drop 4 of them in one turn, which would put it behind Lotus, Moxen, and Ancestral at the minimum.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Funny, as I consider Yawgmoth's Will one of the safer cards on the list in terms of Legacy, IF Lions Eye Diamond was not legal in the format. The powerlevel of YW is tied to the cards you are able to loop and if you can cast overpowered & restricted cards like A.Recall, T.Walk, Lotus, Gush, etc. you end up with a very swingy card by itself. In Legacy, the amount of broken cards to replay is very limited and as WotC was clever enough to exclude LED/Petal loops on Past in Flames, we can see that the effect and resulting cardadvantage is powerful, but not broken by itself.

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Interesting thought. Wouldn't Yawgmoth's Will speed Storm up by a full turn (or 1/2 a turn at least)? Just in the context of Past in Flames and Snapcaster Mage being powerful cards in Legacy, it seems high on the list to me, but this is all in theory. I always viewed Will as the most "swingy" card in the game, but good points that it doesn't apply as much to Legacy.

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Originally Posted by Di

In short: unban Frantic Search so I can justify bringing High Tide to an event at least one more time.

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Back on topic as well... More of this! ^^

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Originally Posted by Di

Steering slightly back on topic because I care...

...As for other decks, there is no reason to run the card. [Frantic Search is] expensive and card disadvantage. If you need help powering out a Gurmag Angler with a card disadvantage engine when you already have 3+ lands in play, your deck probably sucks. ....

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I'm not sure that Frantic Search would be a problem card, but that's a rather facile dismissal. Frantic Search also has potential synergies with graveyard stuff like dredge or reanimator and decks that run sol lands.

Will would be so retarded in a format with 4 LED and petals, and ritual.