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Anyone tested the matchup against Spiral Tide? Some adivices? I just could not test it in time for this weekend tournament.
Also, CB seems bad today with this vial decks , green zeniths, could this be good news or it was just replaced by a wave of Team America decks?
@ Shimi: I played the Spiral Tide match up this past Saturday, and it went exceptionally well. Pre board you're going to want to focus on a Tendril's win, unless you can crap out tons of goblins on the 1st or 2nd turn. Post board I brought in 1x Silence, 3x Pyroblast, & 1x Mindbreak Trap; he didn't stand a chance.
A trend to slower decks will allways be good for us. Spells like GSZ can hamper us by pulling in Gaddock Teeg, but that is allmost allways post board. Decks like Team America can be very rough match up. Counter type spells mixed with discard is never a good sign for us. Team America also some times packs Stifle main, and that can be brutal to the unprepaired.
Since I'm rather new to this deck, could some players with tournament experience share their thoughts about reading your opponents body language, especially playing against decks with FoW?
Do you ever stop after generating some mana because you feel like something is suspicious (obviously without having duressed/chanted them), to look for another protection piece?
Or how do you sense if an opponent holds a FoW or not?
It depends on the turn. Once I start playing dark rits and stuff it means I'm going to go for it; if you stop after playing a rite of flame and a dark rit you're just screwing yourself over. If you have the turn 1 win, I say go for it because there's a 40% chance they have FoW. If you have EtW in hand against a deck with counters/CB go for it if you suspect they don't have EE or echoing truth or some answer because people rarely play right against combo and never counter the ritual effects instead thinking "I'll counter ad nauseam" only to have 10 goblins in their face shortly afterwards.
Team america usually plays stifle as a 4 of. That card wrecks us in conjunction with wasteland and discard in the form of hymn. Team america is our nightmare MU; it's like canadian thresh but it has hymn as well as countermagic and land destruction, which can shut this deck down. As Ari Lax put it when he faced TA with his build of ANT he said it was his worst MU going into the top 8 of that SCG open.
I placed 9th going 3-2 this weekend at an event with about 20-30 people. I'd write a tournament report but I don't remember all the details about my matches. I would have top 8'ed, but I misplayed twice that cost me games and one actually cost me the match.
Overall, I had a great time. This was my first tournament with TES even though I've been playing it for about 6 months now. I still need a ton of practice playing around Teeg and Cannonist though.
Quick tournament report, and the ultimate disappointment at the end of it... I played an exact 75 as the frontpage list. There just doesn't seem to be any reason for me to change a thing.
ROUND 1: Versus Sorta-Kinda Rock
Game 1: I was hoping my opponent was Zoo or even Countertop. Instead, when he won the flip, he opened with a Thoughtseize, taking my Duress. On his next turn, he hits me with Hymn to Tourach. The turn after, he Vindicates my land. I simply had no way to recover when I tried to ETW him, and he used Pernicious Deed the following turn to wipe my critters away.
Game 2: I plop down my artifacts before he could get to them, then Duress him. I removed Thoughtseize, but he had Hymn, so I braced myself for it. I Brainstorm in response, and here's the cards I had in hand: Ponder, Ponder, Ad Nauseam, LED, Rite Of Flame, Burning Wish. I put back Ponder and Ad Naus, with the implicit thinking that with my mana on the table, I can ponder into Ad Naus, whatever happens. He hits the two cards I didn't care about: Ponder and Burning Wish. Next turn, I hit him with a lethal Ad Naus.
Game 3: He opens with Thoughtseize again. I never held more than two cards in hand by turn 2, and he had Wastelands at the ready for my mana. It was all academic. What a terrible match-up to start the game against. It felt like Homebrew + Rock, and I was just beasted.
(0-1)
ROUND 2: Versus Homebrew
Game 1: I lose the flip again. He opens with Duress, and takes my only business. I had mana, Chant, Duress, and a Burning Wish. Grumble. Then we proceeded to draw-go after I Duress away his Hymn to Tourach. I was shocked that by turn 5, he had no threats. I hardcast Ad Naus and proceeded to win from there.
Game 2: He opens with a Swamp, go. I couldn't believe my luck. I opened with a hand that had Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Warrens, LED, Infernal, Land. I plopped down 8 tokens, went to town, then had enough mana two turns later to Infernal, LED in response, Tendrils.
(1-1)
ROUND 3: Versus Mono-Black (See a pattern here? Grumble.)
Game 1: I lose the flip yet again (See another pattern here? Grumble.), then he hits me with Duress, and he takes out my Burning Wish, which was my only business spell. He hits me with Hymn the following turn, then he puts pressure on me the third turn with Confidant. I die to it and Vampire Nighthawk and Gatekeeper of Malakir over the following turns.
Game 2: I mull to 6 but couldn't come up with a winning hand. Both mulliganned hands contained 2 Chrome Mox, and I wasn't keen on giving him a free Duress by mulling to 5. It didn't matter, because he had discard up the wazoo and Wastelands AND Null Brooch to boot.
(1-2)
ROUND 4: Versus Zoo
Game 1: I win the flip, and I open with a land drop, and sigh a sigh of relief. Finally, a matchup without black. He drops a Nacatl. I Brainstorm in response, and filter into goodness. I Duress him, see no answers to Goblin Tokens, then proceed to ETW for 12 tokens. He loses two turns later.
Game 2: He opens with a Nacatl again. I open with a first turn kill via LED x 3, Burning Wish into an Infernal I sided out into an Ad Naus into the win.
(2-2)
ROUND 5: Versus Homebrew (What is this?!? Bizarro land?)
Game 1: I win the flip, and I have a good hand going. He Duresses, I Brainstorm, he takes away my Burning Wish, but leaves me with a Ponder and a Brainstorm. I put down my LED's and a Petal, I brainstorm into a fetch at his EOT, then I Ponder into an Infernal Tutor for the win.
Game 2: He Duresses away my Burning Wish yet again. This time, though, I hit him with an ETW for 8 tokens. He had no answers.
(3-2)
ROUND 6: Versus Countertop Bant
Game 1: I lost the flip, and since I thought I had no chance to make it past swiss, so I threw caution into the wind and went for a 2nd-turn Ad Naus. He had FOW. I lost to Goyfs.
Game 2: I Duress away his Sensei's Divining Top. He plays the Exalted BOP expy (The name escapes me right now. I can't believe it.). I know he has no blue cards, so the most he could have topdecked is Daze (I doubt he had Mindbreak Trap to board in.), so I play around it with a massive Ad Nauseam.
Game 3: He plays Top. I Duress away his Counterbalance. On turn 3, thanks to the mana-producing creature again, he plays Jace, then Brainstorms. I guessed that at most, he had only one counterspell. I Silence him. I then do a bunch of Rituals and cantrips, and just when I was about to Burning Wish into Infernal into Ad Naus, I realized I was at 8 spells already, and he had 18 life. I just got the Tendrils and won from there.
(4-2)
After six rounds, I came in 9th. Guess it's back to Aeon Bridge for me. :(
Boarding Strats: Against the non-blue decks, I always went: -3 Chants, +2 Echoing Truth, +1 Thoughtseize. Against the Rock deck, I added in -1 ETW, +1 IGG. Against the blue deck, I went -1 Infernal, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Rite Of Flame, -1 Ponder, +4 Pyroblast. at the time, I didn't know it was a CB deck, until Game 3.
What's your reasoning in taking out the chants vs "non-blue decks" while keeping in the duresses?Quote:
Originally Posted by mistervader
PS: for those who missed it: http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1444 That's right, we're tough!
I was normally facing off against Black, and I needed Duress to remove their discard. I couldn't reliably chant them due to the manabase, but Duressing their discard was better.
Awesome video!Quote:
Originally Posted by Diprivan
I've been running the three color variant since about December last year. During this time, I've had a fairly positive percentage in match play - I believe about 9-4 over 4 tournaments (+1 bye which I'm not counting). A lot of goldfishing and grinding as well. It's not a lot, but it's a start.
The merfolk matchup becomes a lot more manageable with 2 basics in the deck.
I'm also finding it helps a lot to read and re-read the articles by Max McCall and Matt Elias. And Bryant's OP has been invaluable although I'm still learning to mulligan more effectively.
I was playing a few matchups recently where I needed Pulverize more than Shattering Spree. I'm going to give Pulverize a try, since it's possible with 2 mountains in the deck.
A question for the community: how do you practice? Lately I've been playing pre- and post- board games against 2 decks specifically: Counterbalance and Rock. I figure that CB and Thoughtseize/Hymn are the things I'm most concerned about. Just curious to know how you go about your routine?
Generally I don't playtest. However the most valuable decks to test against are decks like these:Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague Sliver
Merfolk
4c Counterbalance
Team America
Junk
Dreadstill
Stax
Everything else just doesn't matter.
I playtest with a small group of capable players. We have our test gauntlet, consisting of:Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague Sliver
countertop
merfolk
tempo.dec (TA for the moment, can be canadian)
Zoo
Goblins
Black midrange (rock, eva green, deadguy)
ichorid (though we barely use it: it's lame:wink:)
As lorddotm suggested, playtesting against MUD may be helpful too.
In playtesting, I ask my friends to play the more interactive decks (countertop, tempo, ...) In goldfishing I test the remaining decks. These can't really interact with us and you can easily mimic their plays.
For example, zoo:
G1: they kill you by their turn 4 and bring you down to 10 by turn 2. Chanting them buys you 1 turn.
G2-3: they have a hatebear turn 2. If they reach 2 mana (and you didn't chant them during their upkeep), u need an answer.
Finally, maybe the most important: learn their sideboards! It's vital you know what's coming so you can adapt your boarding/playstyle post side.
I agree. Since you posted non-blue decks vs rock, I assumed you meant decks like zoo, goblins,...Quote:
Originally Posted by mistervader
You are so misstaken here.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
You know a decent goblin player or especially zoo could make your day miserable post-board.
never neglect good match-ups, they could change a lot post-board.
Also you are not even testing the older treshhold variants like canadian or dark tempo (the latter is extremely interesting for example)
Indeed, you should know the sideboarding strats in your region.Quote:
Originally Posted by practical joke
Last time in Brussels, I faced some 'good' matchups:
1 zoo: he boarded 3 teeg (1 teeg main, GSZ), 3 pyroblast
1 WG beats: he boarded 3 canonist, 2 teeg (GSZ maindeck)
1 enchantress: he boarded 4 teeg, 4 phyrexian revoker, 4 white leyline.
When they're willing to spend their entire sideboard to us, they really can be a pain in the hands of a skilled pilot.
That is a miserable approach towards the vast majority of legacy decks. Decks like affinity, dredge, goblins, bant, any of the U-based Show and Tell -decks or even burn can basically blow you out if you don't know how to play against them. Also MUD, Tempo thresh, deadguy and UW tempo are matchups you can hardly say "it doesn't matter".Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
that happens a lot actually, mostly goblins and zoo are willing to give mindbreak trap a spin which is a nuisance..and a big one as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diprivan
Be aware, that whatever they board it'll probably slow you down at least a full turn against some decks that could be the critical turn.
Okay, I said I don't play test a lot. If I do, I want to maximize my time, testing against a deck that I NEVER see, it not a good use of my time. I think I've played against Canadian once in a tournament in the past year, and I've never played against "Dark Thresh". Ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
Bant doesn't do anything that Team America or Merfolk don't, sometimes they bring in hatebears, so having answers to that is important, but I just assume everything with white and no Hymns or Counterbalance brings in hatebears and board accordingly.
Goblins and Zoo do not change after board. If you think they do, I want to know how you are playing those matchups... They either stop you, or you kill them, against Zoo play around a hate bear. If you see Mindbreak Trap, play around that, honestly, it isn't brain surgery.
Show and Tell decks might be worth testing against, but once again, they are just a blue deck that can kill you a little bit faster. Much like Merfolk, testing won't change that, you are still going to try and kill them as soon as possible, if they tap out at any point for Show and Tell or Natural Order, going for it is not unreasonable.
I refuse to acknowledge UW Tempo as a real deck, but its no different than Merfolk or TA, just worse. Sometimes they have hatebears, so don't be an idiot and play into them.
If you have problems with Dredge, they either got lucky, you aren't using Chants correctly, or you're an idiot. Not much else to say here.
A lot of match-ups with TES just come down to common sense (beyond the ones I said). General guide lines are to bring in bounce against everything with W, but no Hymn or Counterbalance or decks with artifact based hate; bring in Blasts against all that is Blue; if you have them, Xantids are great against U decks without Counterbalance or a million removal spells. Literally everything else should be self explanatory. Don't bring in wishboard shit.
My best advice to you is to just think about what cards you care about, and just answer those in games 2 and 3. Some match ups are terrible, regardless of how often you test them. Sometimes you face the guy with the 10-15 card anti-storm sideboard. Those guys are usually only in round 1-3, just dodge them, or if you don't, they are usually terrible players, so just out play them.
Like I said earlier, if you have the time to play against every deck, have fun, I don't. The decks I said each have elements of what other decks have, while being the best at what they do (Team America), or they are the most likely you will face (Merfolk). The rest don't matter to play test against since you will just be bringing in 2 Echoing Truth, and calling it a day (I usually take out a Chant and a Duress when I do this).
On Mindbreak Trap. Against a deck that would play this, I usually just win game 1, don't play around it game 2, and if they have it, I play around it game 3. The fact is a lot of people don't play it, and those that do will either keep a hand without it and they will just lose, or they will keep a terrible hand with it, and you can easily just Duress them.
PS
The only reason I play test against Dreadstill is because one of my close friends plays it as his main deck, so we often just play the match up when we are board. It is by far your worst match up, so have fun with that. If you want to maximize efficiency, don't bother testing against it. If you feel like having your ego knocked down a few pegs, play your heart out.
hello there!
i just like to share what happened to
me last sunday's tournament in which
39 players participated.
here's the list that i used
TJB_TES
4 LED
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
4 rite of flame
4 chrome mox
4 burning wish
3 infernal tutor
1 tendrills of agony
1 ad nauseam
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 ill gotten gains
1 emtpy the warren
4 thoughtseize
2 orims chant
1 silence
4 gemstone mine
2 polluted delta
2 underground sea
2 volcanic island
2 city of brass
2 flooded strand
SB
3 pyroblast
1 krosan grip
1 wipe away
1 pyroclasm
1 tropical island
1 reverent silence
1 empty the warrens
1 infernal tutor
1 tendrills of agony
4 dark confidant
Rd1 ANT/doomsday
G1: i got off on 2nd turn, use ad naus to refill my hand (down to two). then produced enough number of token to kill him next turn. but he just killed me by casting dark rit and tendrills.
G2: god draw, was able to kill him via IGG loop then tendrills for ten storm.
G3: he went off 2nd turn i think via IGG loop.
for rounds two (naya sligh); round 3 (affinity) and round 4 (bant)
in all these 3 rounds i went 1st.
G1: was able to pull off a turn one tendrills for 10 storm via IGG-loop
G2: same thing, i was on the draw - then killed them all via lethal storm lose life.
Rd5 burn
G1: i kept a hand with: gem, volcs, LED, dark rit, ponder, brainstorm, orims
i lose miserabably. i kept on drawing trash off my library.
G2: same thing happened, except i mulled for 6. still, draw trash.
Rd6 GW aggro
G1: exalted via noble and qasali were to much for me to handle.
G2: turn 2 i think i got off via burning wish loop for infernal for ad naus then storm for X-gobs FTW
G3: went with ad naus (putting my life down to 4). on my 4th turn opponent was down to ten,
i attacked my 17 gobs tokens. on his side he had KOTR, canonnist, teeg, true believer and a savannah and a karakas.
he blocked 4 of my 17 tokens then tapped kotr sac his GW_dual fetching a waste, then tapped karakas floating one W. sac his waste destroying his karakas, effectively putting his KOTR at 5/5 then used his STP to gain 5 which made his life from ten to 15. so when damage dealing hits, 15-13 = 2 :( thus i lose when he swang his teeg and TB at me.
:)
i am much comfy with what i have in my list.
feel free to scrutinize it
:lol:
-paeng
TES will just shit all over itself sometimes. Bad karma, dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by paeng4983
What's the appropriate play regarding Silence/Orim's Chant as an opponent of TES, say if you have a single Force as a counter?
I could see the benefit of Forcing it being to potentially bluff another counter and getting the TES player to play around it, but I don't see this as all that likely. Is it more likely to just add to storm count and the TES will just go for it anyways? Though, unless they are pulling an ETW I don't see the extra storm count being significant against a good player.
What are thoughts on this?
I don't pretend to be an amazing TES player, but I'll give my thoughts on the subject.
It depends on context. If I've seen your hand recently and you haven't had too many draws to find a counter, I'll probably just go for it. If you have enough pressure on the table, I'll probably just go for it. If I know my top cards and I don't have any prospect of drawing more protection soon, I'll probably just go for it. Also, I sometimes try to bait out counters with a chant even though I can't go off that turn. On the other hand, the extra storm is not often relevant (unless you've put me in a situation where Ad Nauseam is too dangerous, but then allowing the chant turns on IGG).
On the whole, I'd say don't force chant if you're pretty sure the TES player has to go off anyways.