Meh, pFires isn't that important IMO. Knights will still matter more.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini1337s
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Meh, pFires isn't that important IMO. Knights will still matter more.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini1337s
I agree with KotR being a huge part of the matchup, but it's hard to keep those Knights if they can pick off Mom with P-Fire and save STP for Knight.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I have found it to be a rough matchup so far, with a straight G/W build.
Yeah this exactly. PFires kills Moms which means your StP/PtE can be saved for their Knights while they have to spend their StP/PtE on your Moms and might not have it for your own Knights.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini1337s
PFires also is pretty useful against Pridemages and Oozes (less so than against Pridemage). Having pFires pretty much means they have to wait to play their Pridemage after you play your equipment otherwise they risk losing the Pridemage whereas against GW, if they StP/PtE your early Pridemages, that just means less removal for your Knights and Mothers.
Likewise playing an Ooze without green mana open or without creatures in the yard (tougher than you think it is due to all the exile based removal we run!) is a much riskier play against pFires builds than against GW.
I think it's been agreed that Punishing Maverick has a slight edge over GW. Its not overly significant though.
Right, it's at most 5% edge in the mirror. Tight play, good topdecks, and making your land drops make a bigger deal than getting the pFires going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Is it really 5%. I know you beat the PFM deck at SCGLA, but with PFM, he keeps shooting your hierachs and moms and scyrb ranger. It gets annoying pretty fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
And he gets to save his plows against your knights.
Yeah I think the edge of beating opposing Moms, Pridemages, etc. without having to use an StP/PtE on them is pretty huge in the mirror.
It's still a mirror matchup. Test it out and you'll see how little Fires does in the deck.
For instance, killing an active Mom requires :2::r::r::r: over two turns. Can you really afford to spend that much mana and not develop your threats?
Plus they have very few outs to Thrun and Silhana Ledgewalker.
Probably the same outs as straight GW.. note that PFM runs on sb Engineered Explosives. Don't forget that PF kills in mirror:
-Moms
-Hierarchs
-Scryb
-Ooze (if not feeded)
-Avens
-Pridemage
-SFM
probably easier would be wrote that it doesn't kill KotR / Ooze if feeded / Terravore / hexproof guys (Thrun/SLW).
So bascially its rather thought MU since Straight GW can't ramp enough, his Cradle works much worst (since no more huge board presence), GWr just have CA over so many little dorks on table.
Which is just another good reason to run Bog maindeck. So long as you have a Knight at the ready you can respond to the PFires triggers going on the stack by fetching Bog. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
In my experience with the mirror (I've played both sides of this one), I've liked pFires more. The pFires lists are definitely more controlling than the straight GW list to me, but yes, I usually find it worth EoT pFires their Mom, return with Grove, then kill it on your turn to be more than worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
That's also just against an active Mother. The most likely time they're going to be able to get an active Mother going is early game where gives you 3 more answers to Mom before they get to untap.
Mid-Late game if you have Grove + pFires, any subsequent Moms aren't a problem whereas the GW list may simply have run out of answers or is forced to spend StP/PtE on her.
What does the GW list run that's a great out to Thrun / Ledgewalker that pFires can't run?Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Post board, pFires actually probably has access to better answers to equipment (which is what makes Silhana scary).
This is true, but having an active Knight on either side should be quite the advantage. Conversely, if the pFires player has an active Knight as well, they can get a Grove and return their pFires in response to the Bog trigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
I really do like Bog main, but I've been having a tough time figuring out how to fit it into my list (this is where I feel the GW list has an advantage, having more leeway on maindeck toolbox lands).
This man speaks the truth...Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Haven't playtested Punishing Fires but I haven't heard a description of the purported advantages to running a third color that sound better to me than just running more Thruns and/or Ledgewalkers and a second Jitte (if running SFM.)
I mean I already feel like I have infinite removal in my straight g/w build so I feel no compulsion to splash for removal that can't hit big guys (although it would be nice against Planeswalkers, I admit.)
Planeswalkers are not a problem for this deck, against control deck you should win most of the times. All that matters right now is having an edge in the mirror and winning combo deck. P fire was good the first time someone thought about it, now all the GW players are aware of it and know how to play around it, so its not rlly that good. I definetly think that the GW version is the way to go. The main strategy is to hold your wastelands for when they land a grove, and try to zenith for big creatures rather than the utility ones like scryb ranger (all I do in the straight GW mirror). Thrun and ledgewaker helps a ton, and you can also set up a situation where they are only able to Pfire once, and you zenith for Ooze with 2-3 mana untapped to save it from Pfires.
Yeah, I don't think that's true at all and I wonder what people base it on. I mean the most played control deck is Blade Control, which seems problematic in the extreme before they bring in Wraths. I mean the only thing I can think of is that previously Blade Control players had no fucking idea how to run this matchup down and lost to their own casual contempt for the deck, because their basic strategy is exceptionally bad for Maverick. Especially if they're wise and have ditched SoFF for Jitte.
Coupled with statements like,
I'm just going to dismiss this as overly optimistic jingoism. If Maverick crushed everything that wasn't combo or itself nothing else would be winning tournaments; a very small portion of the field plays combo.Quote:
All that matters right now is having an edge in the mirror and winning combo deck.
I agree that Ooze, Wasteland, and Knight, even without a Bog, make P Fires a questionable crutch in the mirror though.
The stoneblade MU is not the easiest one, but if you understand the keys to that Mu its actualuy preaty easy. Once they've wrathed your board, all you need is a scryb ranger (best card vs jace). The best cards in that MU are the equipment. I try to search the pro-blue one as fast as possible, as that makes every single dude i play a must-answer thread in the form of STP/PtE.
Thats why i try not to zenith for dryad in the early turns so i can have that backup plan with my fetchlands late in the game.
I mean the problem with that is that in addition everything else they have infinite StPs post-board. Or a close approximation.
And you only have, what, at most 25-27 creatures, which is considerably fewer than infinite.
I mean I may have to test it more extensively, but my impression thusfar of the matchup has been pain unending.
I'm thinking of trying out your build, IBA, but subbing out the Waves for a pair of Garruk 3.0's, and the Goyfs for an extra Ooze and an extra Pridemage.
Silhana Ledgewalker has been the best trump to UW so far in my testing. The only out they have is Wrath, which you can leverage to your advantage.