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I won't argue against the fact that tarmogoyf is better against aggro than delver. However, I think the boarded removal suite of 4 dismember, 3 ghastly demise, 3 submerge, and 2 liliana along with all the relevant counterspells is more than enough to handle zoo goblins and merfolk.
As someone with a lil experience on both sides of the table in that matchup, your boarded removal suite would be more than enough to handle the beatdown matchup. And did you mean liliana of the veil?
the new liliana really rocks, I'm playing it in loam atm and it's really good atm :)
But I'm testing with aggro decks against control, and, well I almost never loose with zoo.
gobblins and merfolk I don't know but zoo must be a hard matchup right :O?
Start your sentences with capitals please. Thanks. -zilla
Has anyone been testing 1 liliana veil and 1 jace in the MB?
Im getting kinda tired of jace being difficult too cast with all those wastelands around, and since i already run dual bayous for the stalker, hymn and library package, liliana seems as a good choice to me?
Yeah I meant of the veil. Edited, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Yeah, I dropped Jace and I don't miss him for a second. Liliana has similar flexibility for a lesser cost. In a deck that plays daze and wasteland, hitting 4 mana is no easy task. I'd rather play pulses in the board to deal with Jace-heavy metas than my own jaces at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
Here's the list with Liliana I have come up with:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique (Could be a fourth Tombstalker)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Dismember
1 Putrefy (Could definitely be Pulse)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach
I'm not sure on the Putrefy and Clique but I'm fairly positive that the rest of the list is appropriate, except maybe the Swamp.
Liliana seems at her best in multiples: she dies fairly easily because of her low loyalty and -2 to defend herself, so replacements are welcome. If you ever have multiples in your hand, her +1 ability can ditch them and make the opponent ditch something in return.
I don't know about the sideboard, though I think Jace TMS belongs there still to fight against slower decks, if there are any of those in the newer format.
Played in a 40 man tonight, and T8'd with a 5th place finish. I lost to UW Standstill (who eventually took 1st place - 4x foil goyfs), and was knocked out of top 8 by NOGoyf. Threw the list together really quickly, but was pretty happy with the pile.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [A] Bayou
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [NPH] Dismember
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 [ON] Smother
Liliana was pretty amazing. If I were to play it again, I'd add another and test Delver in there somewhere.
Nice work Mcfarland.
Also apparently a Team America list running Snapcaster Mage got 1st place out of 390 players in Europe for a post-ban tourney, hopefully we'll get a decklist soon.
congratulations mcfarland.
Interesting approach for a BUG control deck to rely on the most powerful plainswalkers available.
My comments:
I would be worried not to find the right peace in the early-mid game. Since you dont have additional filter with Ponder nor Ancestral Visions for draw it feels like you have to rely on your draws more than necessary.
Cutting stifle (and the TA tempo plan), I would not run 4 daze... Daze might be questionable anyway, since you want to make it very fast to 3 and 4 lands for your walkers.?!
With only 2 early/instant speed removal I worry to get overrun, but creatures before planeswalkers can take over the game. Deed might also be a bit too slow...?
That list looks a lot more like a bugstill/bug control deck than a Team America list. Team America is three things: Tempo, Disruption, Beats. Your deck has a lot of control elements (6 walkers, deed) to it, and I'm not sure I'd label it as a TA deck. It is certainly close though.
Regardless of my nagging, congrats on the result ^_^!
Thanks guys.
@catmint and naarou: I completely agree with you guys. I was actually planning on sleeving up an entirely different deck that day, but a few key cards fell through. I ended up taking an existing TA deck and spending a few minutes moving things around, making room to test Liliana. All in all, it was untuned and I was happily surprised to walk away with a prize.
Since the base was a pretty traditional TA list, I just thought I'd post it in the thread. :)
I essentially ran the AJ/Gerry list at SCG this past weekend, opting out of Tombstalker and Stifles.
Snapcaster with Unearth is absurdly fun. Having 4 Ghastly Demise in the side makes the Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins matchup super good.
I actually forgot my Legacy deck at home... so I scrambled to borrow cards from a handful of people and ended up getting the 75 together, save 4 Tarmogoyfs...
I only had 3. I ran Scavenging Ooze instead.
Which was absurdly good.
Seriously. I kept laughing at how good that card is. I was glad it wasn't Goyf in a couple of matchups, as the lifegain and growing 8/8 was relevant.
Anywho. That's all there. I ended up playing against Mike Hawthorne (a good friend, member of my collective, car sharer, hotel room sharer, and writer that I edit) round 2, which was a bummer. He wrote a report on the tourny here: SCG Indy Tournament Report: The Newest Horizons. He played New Horizons and ended up taking 34th.
I then proceeded to 2-2 drop, losing to Elves (of all things!). I kept a Snapcaster, Ghastly Demise, Dismember hand game three and only ever saw those removal spells. After the match I pieced through my deck and found the other tenish removal spells in the bottom quarter of the deck. Wasn't drawing them any time soon... :)
But Snapcaster and Tombstalker aren't friends. Don't play them together.
Now we face the same circumstance... is Snapcaster (sans Stifle) Team America any more? I... don't think so.
I don't like AJ's/Gerrys build.
I want to run stifle and yes snapcaster is very strong. But I am testing delver instead of Tombastalker. Its much faster and can be played in T2 while having mana open for thoughtseize/stifle/ponder/spell snare. In that way also snapcaster can be played.
Delver is pretty bad in a BUG build... But test away and let us know if you think it's worth it. I'm not impressed by the prospect of having a 3/2 on turn 3 or 4 when you could have a 5/5 with better evasion, as you're not wanting to tap out on turn 1 if you're playing Stifle... and you're wanting to play Hymn or Goyf of turn 2 if you're not holding a Stifle. The curve feels off with Delver, and it can't block worth anything, which is one of the strengths of Stalker.
If you're hellbent on playing Delver, I'd recommend running it in a UR tempo deck with lightning bolts.
Why don't you like AJ's build? I played it at SCG and I thought it was pretty strong. Missed Stifle, but it's a different deck.
I think you're referring to Ovino 6, in Milan. Here's the report (in Italian). And here's the list:Quote:
Originally Posted by PanderAlexander
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
2 dismember
1 go for the throat
1 ghastly demise
1 esplosivi ingegnerizzati
4 tarmogoyf
3 tomb stalker
2 snapcaster mage
4 hymn to tourach
3 daze
3 delver of secret
3 thoughtseize
2 jace the mind sculptor
4 sea
2 trop
2 bayou
4 wasteland
9 fetch
SB:
2 perish
2 pernicious deed
3 extirpate
1 nihil spellbomb
1 life from the loam
1 ghastly demise
1 go for the throat
1 llawan cephalid empress
1 thoughtseize
1 spell pierce
1 krosan
I did not play the build - maybe it is very strong. I did not like that it is all about snapcaster mage and that the Stifle/Daze/Tombstalker plan of TA is neglected because of that. Also liliana did not make the cut for them...Quote:
Originally Posted by metamet
My idea about delver came from the fact that I often want to keep mana open for stifle and therefore don't want to play Hymn or Goyf on Turn 2 and 3. Delver beeing a 1 drop can be played turn 2 while having mana for thoughtseize, stifle or spell snare/pierce. Delver is also better friends with snapcaster and snapcaster is good friends with all the 1 drops I like to play in a Delver deck.
I tested Delver in TA instead of stalker including snapcaster and also in Esper America with Stalkers and V-cliques with a SFM package in the sideboard.
In some situation where Delver transformed imemdiately, it just felt like playing a flying nacatl and it won me a couple of games. It felt like a real tempo boost, because it can be played so easily very early. I played 6 games (not matches) versus canadian thresh and lost 5:1. It was also due to draws and bad transforming luck. It was also close so I think the matchup is not as bad as it seems. However, I think canidian thresh is a better home for delver. Beeing vulnerable to red sucks, without a cantrip which you often don't want to play just because of transforming, he sticks to a 1/1 with a 50% chance and there were some situations where the bigger body was needed. Not going to dismiss it at this point though...
What do you guys think about Marius van Zundert's list?
List:
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Darkblast
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Extirpate
link to explanations.
I really liked it. Having those basics bother me a lot though.
Also, only 2 answers to Lackey on the draw (not counting FoWs), seem to few.
The absence of Stifle/Daze may make this deck look more like Landstill, but guess it still belongs here.
Marius is my teammate and we allready concluded after the tournament the forest should become a bayou. BB is too important to open up with a startinghand forest. Also he doesnt see the deck as team america but just a BUG aggro / control list. It plays less tempo cards to try and get a better late game with planeswalkers.
Aren't 18 blue cards a lil' too few for Force?
I agree, myself am on the snapcaster mage is awesome must play those. But Marius likes to play that version of BUG which works fine for him. the blue count is much lower.