[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

Was able to find the time to enter College of Dupage's weekly Monday Night Legacy tournament. I had a strong start but I started doing poorly in the end, some reason the deck just decided to roll over and not do anything. But thought I'd share my experience anyways.

Match 1: David piloting Landstill w/ Scepter
Round 1 - I got locked out by Isochorn Scepter with Orim's chant imprinted on it. I looked at my hand and it's not too late yet, I have 2 creatures in the field, and Iona in my hand, I was hoping to dredge into a Dread return to help me bail out of the lock, but I did not see Dread return at all, and I just conceded.
Round 2 - I mulliganed to 5 keeping a permanent discard outlet, a rainbow land, a dreger, and 2 Ancient grudge. I was not hitting any bridges, but I have a small pressure going on with several creatures. An Imp, and 2 narcomoeba, and Ichorid recursion going on. He tries to defend with manlands, but I just nuked them grudge. While my pressure just consists of little guys, they got me there.
Round 3 - He played two meddling mages, one after another. 1st one was for cabal Therapy, the 2nd one was for Ancient Grudge. His Tarmogoyf is having problems getting through thanks to Tireless Tribe. Iona, is also in my hand, and I have 2 lands in play a rainbow land and a Coliseum. He's nuked my graveyard earlier a couple times. I had several people watching me and said that "that's game" after he transmuted his tolaria went to search for an Academy Ruins, to start recurring his Tormod's Crypt, but no mana to activate his ruins yet. I looked at my hand and think to my self.. it's now or never. I discarded everything in hand, recurred an ichorid during my upkeep, and dredged. I then activated my coliseum to dredge some more. allowing me to build up enough creatures to dread return and bringing Iona into play along with 6 zombie tokens backing her up. Opponent calculated the damage and conceded. The one's watching me was like "That was one hell of a turn". (Current standing 1-0)



Match 2: James Piloting ANT
Nice guy, talked for a little bit, especially since he hasn't seen me showed up for quite a few weeks.
Round 1 - He played Sensei's Divining Top, when I got my turn I played rainbow land into an imp, he knew right away what I am playing. But the people next to us said he should win this. He did some stuff I couldn't recall, and passed the turn. I discarded a dredger at end of his turn, dredged during my turn, played breakthrough hitting only 1 narcomoeba, but found 1 bridge at least. I had to discard my hand which also contained 2 therapies, and I also hit 2 therapies during my breakthrough. During this turn I played a total of 4 cabal therapies, off 2 creatures only, thanks to the lone bridge in my grave. He just conceded as he sees my Ichorid and bridge that is in the grave.
Round 2 - He chose to go 1st and just dropped fetch. My turn I played a permanent discard outlet, and played Unmask. Judging from his hand, it looked like he was ready to go off once I pass my turn, decided to go after the mana boost than go after the tutor, as my intention was just to slow him down. Which actually indeed payed off since he wasn't able to go off, and I started attacking with ichorid and imp, with a lone bridge. He said there's just way too much damage coming his way, and I had a therapy as well. (Current standing 2-0)



Match 3: Nick piloting Pro Bant (God I hate Bant)
Round 1 - He started with Noble, and I DDD, discarding troll, he made a comment that he hates dredge (But I also hate bant... grrrr lol). His turn he dropped a Tarmogoyf and pass the turn. For the next several turns, I am just dredging blanks. I am hitting: Dredgers, lands, discard outlets, and the drawers, hits several bridges too but not a single trace of Ichorid nor narcomoeba. Had no choice but to actually play my card, so I dropped my sole rainbow land and tried to careful study, which of course ran into a countermagic. I knew It would happen but I had no choice as I am getting unlucky with my dredges. I ended up losing to 3 Tarmogoyfs.
Round 2 - I encounter a wall of Heirarchs, and a tarmogoyf, which I attempted to breakthrough but lost my bridge every time. It was short of a race, but my tokens couldn't keep up, things turned for the worse when he dropped that war monk. I concede. (Current standing 2-1)



Match 4: Ried piloting Bant Survival (God another bant... lol)
Round 1 - My ichorids ran into path to exiles, and I lost this round being clubbed to death by flyers along a bunch of exalted triggers via nobles.
Round 2 - Now I find out he played survival, when he dropped survival of the fittest on turn 2. When I saw him fetch for a Loyal Retainer, with several creatures, I played a cabal therapy to check out what is in his hand. I saw 1 removal, so I tried to dread return Iona, with 6 tokens coming in due to bridge from below. But he responded by using survival to fetch for Faerie Macabre to remove my bridges. My Iona, came in and I chose white. But he just used survival again to fetch for sower of temptation and took my Iona. My turn I dredged using my Stinkweed Imp instead, and hard casted it so i can take out Iona and try to dread return her again if he tries to attack. But at end of my turn, he just used survival to search for a rafiq, so that the Iona of mine that he is controlling gets double strike. I decided to play it out still as I still have a last resort plan, but I'll need to hit my last brige and a dread return and with help of some therapies, to try and bury him with tokens. I am just barely staying alive by constantly dredging and hard casting Golgari Thug and using his interaction with narcomoeba, and flashing back therapy to do so, while slowly amassing an armor of zombies. But the plan was completely shut, when, i guess, he figured out what I was up to and used survival to grab a Gaddock Teeg. I conceded when he came ot as my last resort fell apart. (Final standing 2-2)


I don't really know what to do against Bant, as this is the archetype that's giving me the most difficulty at the moment. It's not Ant (4th ANT player i've played so far, and im currently 4-0 against it), not merfolk, but I am having the most difficulty with this match up. Any tips regarding this match up will greatly help.


Oh this is what I ran...

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Tarnished Citadel

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


Sideboard
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Unmask


Due to my difficulty I am having vs Bant, I am considering bringing in Firestorm and replacing Vapor with Nature's Claim. As Firestorm can hit the things that I would like anyways where i would normally bring in the Chain of Vapor. Perhaps this new configuration:

4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Unmask

But yes, do you guys have any advise to share about the bant match up? Wether its CounterTop Bant, Pro Bant, or Survival Bant.
Thanks, I'll try to represent this deck as well on one of the 1k tournaments coming up this weekend.

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Round 3 - He played two meddling mages, one after another. 1st one was for cabal Therapy, the 2nd one was for Ancient Grudge. His Tarmogoyf is having problems getting through thanks to Tireless Tribe. Iona, is also in my hand, and I have 2 lands in play a rainbow land and a Coliseum. He's nuked my graveyard earlier a couple times. I had several people watching me and said that "that's game" after he transmuted his tolaria went to search for an Academy Ruins, to start recurring his Tormod's Crypt, but no mana to activate his ruins yet. I looked at my hand and think to my self.. it's now or never. I discarded everything in hand, recurred an ichorid during my upkeep, and dredged. I then activated my coliseum to dredge some more. allowing me to build up enough creatures, I used a couple of cabal therapies to clear the way for dread return, bringing Iona into play along with 5 zombie tokens backing her up. Opponent calculated the damage and conceded. The one's watching me was like "That was one hell of a turn". (Current standing 1-0)

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What happened to MM chanting therapy?





peace,
4eak

Sorry this is how it turned out. "allowing me to build up enough creatures to dread return and bringing Iona into play along with 6 zombie tokens backing her up" Can't tell if my notes says 6 or 5, making slight errors since my napkins (where I take the notes) only has bits and fragments, and I was just connecting the dots when I got home.

But yeah I remembered I can't therapy nor play my grudges due to the two meddling mages. I won that one due to the dread return, and I recall the opponent saying he should have named the dread return off the 2nd one.


EDIT: I try to recall as much as I can, while I am just connecting the dots. Since there's usually things I need to do right after the match is over, I make my notes short. But sometimes I accidentally just skip things or think this is how I done something. But despite a few errors here, it's how things turn out.
Like my notes looks like this...

David Me
19 19 MM-CT,TT MM-AG,CC TMG

But yeah my notes usually is understandable only to me, as it looks like an SNES code or something lol.
But something I get lost in the translation when I try to recall the things in between from memory.

I woke up earlier, and started messing with MWS to do some testing. I replaced 1 card (Iona) with a blank card, and played through a lot of games, trying to see what that I would have had hope for for that blank card to be during those testings. I am quite mixed up, would therefore would like some further insight on it.

What do you guys think would be a higher priority between the 3?

The 8th permanent discard outlet?
There were some games I had played in the past, and it actually happened as well during testing, that I had kept an opening hand that's playable, but had hoped for a permanent discard outlet.

The 12th Dredger?
Just like the previous one, this had showed up as well, where I have a decent hand, but unfortunately I was unable to chain dredge.

The 3rd Dread Return?
Some games I had played in tournaments, wether I go unprotected or not, since I am just after making the tokens, I had wanted the help of that Dread Return to help me turn the tide around in my favor, by simply outnumbering him, before he can find an answer to switch the game into his favor.

So I am wondering, while mainly it's between the outlet or the dredger, I was wondering which one you guys would give priority to.

Well I play 8 Permanent Discard Outlets and 3 Dread Returns and am extremely happy with the consistancy. I suppose the 12th dredger doesn't make that much of a difference - sometimes you just fizzle. It's a combo deck after all.

Excuse me if this has been discussed before, but what is the take on Bloodghast in Non-LED Dredge? =)

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Originally Posted by Zaemu

Excuse me if this has been discussed before, but what is the take on Bloodghast in Non-LED Dredge? =)

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There are some versions of the deck that runs it. But I believe the majority leans in favor of not having him in. Trying to fit in bloodghasts, is a bit rough without having a signifficant change in your mana base. Which will also affect being able to cast other spells. Bloodghast versions also wants a copy or two of Dakmor salvage, but the spells it will be able to cast will be very limited, and just slows the deck down. Problem with bloodghast too is that they're unable to create tokens on their own, and fast aggro decks just shrugs their shoulder and continue to club you in the head with their creatures.

All in all, theres some rare situations where having them could make a difference. But trying to squeeze them in seems more harmful than beneficial, trying to force open some slots, and making our near stable mana base, a little bit shaky.

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Originally Posted by Zaemu

Excuse me if this has been discussed before, but what is the take on Bloodghast in Non-LED Dredge? =)

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Read the topic? :rolleyes: Also the article posted by someone a page ago contains some usefull info on it.

I recently dug out my Dredge and I would like some comments on my list:

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe

4 GGT
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Darkblast

4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough

4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Unmask
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 FKZ
1 Terastodon



The SB is designed to fight a field of supposedly plenty of ANT, that's why I listed Unmask.
Grudge Chain and Needle is there to fight generic hate, Unmask also comes in when I lose to Ravenous Trap G2.

Did I miss any important strategies? Playing through hate is still the best move I guess?

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Originally Posted by Nidd

I recently dug out my Dredge and I would like some comments on my list:

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe

4 GGT
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Darkblast

4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough

4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Unmask
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 FKZ
1 Terastodon



The SB is designed to fight a field of supposedly plenty of ANT, that's why I listed Unmask.
Grudge Chain and Needle is there to fight generic hate, Unmask also comes in when I lose to Ravenous Trap G2.

Did I miss any important strategies? Playing through hate is still the best move I guess?

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My advise: -1 Darkblast, +1 Tribe. U really want the 8 outlets for consistancy, and you have enough hate in the form of 1 darkblast game 1. Also i would go -1 Study +1 Breakthrough, seriously breakthrough is one of the main reasons we can beat through all the hate, just run 4 ;). MD looks good for the rest.

Sideboard: I think i would consider the peedles, since many decks are running combinations of relic/crypt, and mostly your grudge is enough to deal with those. Unmask is more a meta dependent choice i think, if you want to stand a chance vs Storm or such. I have been recently playing leylines, which totally rocked against most of the meta! So i would concider those as well :tongue:

~Maarten

In addition to that, there should nearly always be a place for Iona in Ichorid, preferably SB.

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Originally Posted by Dredgehammer

In addition to that, there should nearly always be a place for Iona in Ichorid, preferably SB.

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The problem I have with Iona is: In which MUs is she better than any other DR target?

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Originally Posted by Dredgehammer

In addition to that, there should nearly always be a place for Iona in Ichorid, preferably SB.

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I dont play Iona, or any DR targets except troll MD. DR targets game 1 might be cool, but in 99% of the games totally unneeded.

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

I dont play Iona, or any DR targets except troll MD. DR targets game 1 might be cool, but in 99% of the games totally unneeded.

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What about G1 vs something like Lands or Enchantress?
Have you ever found the need for either Terastodon/Woodfall Primus or FKZ to just win?

I'm thinking about MDing just one Dread Return target but I dunno which is best.

I think if you are going to maindeck DR targets they should be included to give you a variety of gameplans. I play FKZ and Empyrial Archangel in my main and I've been very happy with them. Archangel is usually enough to stall the aggressive decks for the turn or two you might need to finish them off. FKZ just makes you a turn faster most of the time which is never a bad thing.
The only other target I would consider maindecking would be Iona, but Archangel is just my personal preference in that slot.

Enchantress and Lands should be rare enough that Terastadon's place is still in the board.

Enchantress and lands are terrible matchups anyway, removing 1 of their lands is not going to stop the loam engine from working, or stop them from just playing intuition to tutor for stuff... And enchantress: turn 2 ground seal ---> GG. Ur fancy DR-targets wont do anything then.

Im just saying: you play Archangel, but arent the agro matchups good enough already? I think having a 15/15 trol is just as strong.

I think ground seal is the least of your worries when you are playing vs enchantress. You do have cabal therapy though to try to hit it if it really is that scary.

The Angel seems pretty weak, if you going to return her why not just get the zealot and win? Or the troll etc, the angel just dies and Ancestor's Chosen is way better vs aggro decks.

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

Enchantress and lands are terrible matchups anyway, removing 1 of their lands is not going to stop the loam engine from working, or stop them from just playing intuition to tutor for stuff... And enchantress: turn 2 ground seal ---> GG. Ur fancy DR-targets wont do anything then.

Im just saying: you play Archangel, but arent the agro matchups good enough already? I think having a 15/15 trol is just as strong.

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You're not trying to stop 43 Land or Enchantress from winning, you're just trying to open up a window of opportunity with Terastadon by nuking whatever is holding you back so you can attack. It's not much but it's one slot in the board for some semblance of a chance in the MU.

I think the aggro matchups(Zoo) are worse than most of the blue matchups. Most of them can kill their guys to remove bridges so FKZ isn't the best DR target. Iona is fine but if they play Path or Swords you have to name white which gives them a chance to burn you out. Ancestor's Chosen is great but I think it's too narrow to maindeck. I understand that Archangel isn't popular, and probably isn't the best choice for the maindeck slot all things considered, but I play it because I've had success with it and I like the effect it has on the games that I choose to DR it. I'm not even arguing that other people should play it, just saying it is an option if you want to try something different. Also, I have Ancestor's Chosen in my board which would come in over FKZ against Zoo, Goblins, etc.

Game 1 vs Lands or Enchantress is usually a mess, you just have to hope your Cabal Therapies hit. Terastodon and FKZ in the SB are necessary to fight through Tabernacle and Glacial Chasm or Solitary Confinement/Elephant Grass.
Iona in the side is pretty nutty - you don't need tokens, Ichorids or anything else when she's in play. Obviously you don't side her in against Zoo. Ancestor's Chosen is for that.

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Originally Posted by drawer

Ancestor's Chosen is great but I think it's too narrow to maindeck. I understand that Archangel isn't popular, and probably isn't the best choice for the maindeck slot all things considered, but I play it because I've had success with it and I like the effect it has on the games that I choose to DR it. I'm not even arguing that other people should play it, just saying it is an option if you want to try something different. Also, I have Ancestor's Chosen in my board which would come in over FKZ against Zoo, Goblins, etc.

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Actually, Ancestor's Chosen is useful against Tendrils decks too, so add that to beating it is against aggro decks and you could argue for it being main decked in some metagames. Admittedly, Reanimator is getting played more and more and Chosen isn't so great there.