With ANT rising again in the tournament scene I ' m afraid Twincast is a nice choice, main reason is to abuse their Ad Nauseam, obv, but still decent in response a chant, or even (but not that much) of thoughtseize.
Greetigs,
Iņaki.-
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With ANT rising again in the tournament scene I ' m afraid Twincast is a nice choice, main reason is to abuse their Ad Nauseam, obv, but still decent in response a chant, or even (but not that much) of thoughtseize.
Greetigs,
Iņaki.-
I dont think that ANT is such a bad MU because of FoW, Remand and multiple Mindbreak Traps, sometimes postboard Dispel for their chant effects. Luckily for us, they dropped Xantid Swarm so theres no need to let bounce in the deck. They are forced disrupt us before the combo turn and Remanding a chant, leaving them with no other white source (which is Petal and Tundra) is often enough to buy at least a turn and IMO its definetly possible to make it to turn 4 or 5 here. When you play 4 Wishes leaving a single Mindbreak Trap is also very good because you are able to wish for it early and you have more outs. Also, an early Brain freeze can be enough to mill away IGGY or Tendrils, leaving them with 0 winopts.
Indeed Twincast would be great here but Mindbreak Trap does a better job at fighting through multiple counters and beating combo decks, which was Twincasts purpose back in the days.
if spiral tide take of, twincast seem to be a rely good option, since their time spiral benefit us to a great degree.
I have to play more with a boarded Twincast to know whether it's stronger than just being a 3rd/4th Mindbreak Trap or something along those lines. I really like how it's a jack-of-all-trades when you're going off, and the utility against discard makes it something of a different tool versus combo (as well as a live board card against black disruptive aggro/midrange decks).
I've been trying Keep Watch in the board as a 3-of, as an experiment for fighting Merfolk and being good against other aggro decks. The idea is that you board them in as extra Meditates, but you can cast them to threaten a 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 without giving your opponent card advantage. In the case of Merfolk, that deck generally plays all of its hate in the form of mainboard countermagic and it devotes its board to somehow not losing aggro/rock match-ups. So for dealing with Fish, they're going to be playing the typical FoW/Daze/Pierce/Cursecatcher package, and that means it doesn't really matter what they cast after combat...you don't care if it resolves. Maybe a Standstill is dangerous, but people haven't been playing that card anymore. In any case, what I like about Keep Watch is that you can play it with a mana open on turn 4 (this does require stalling their draw for a bit, but the point is to have a good follow-up to that plan). They can Force it and you get a 2-for-1 and remove a hard counter from their hand. They can Pierce it, but that burns another really strong counter from their hand--and if you Dispel the Pierce, you're in great shape to force them into exerting more tools right then. So they can Daze or Curse it at that point, but this means less gas to play through next turn--while you're trading 1-for-1 or 2-for-2 with countermagic, you have card advantage and sculpting in your deck, and they don't. So once you run them down on gas, you're going to theoretically be able to win a big stack war.
Now, supposing they are swinging with a Mutavault, a Lord, and a Cursecatcher. If you Keep Watch without mana open and they don't have a Daze, they have to choose between the following: lose a more valuable counterspell, lose the Cursecatcher (and the 2 damage it would deal this turn), or let Solidarity get ahead by 2 extra cards. Sometimes dumping the Cursecatcher is a really bad proposition because it means that you might just live another full turn; a turn where you can play more card advantage (Keep Watch again or play a FoI) or use Remand/Tide to stage going off and then combo on the final turn with way more gas than the opponent. For this, I really like the idea of playing a Keep Watch on turn 3. Of course, you might ask, "But what if they have the Daze?" Well, I advocate playing multiple Peeks in the maindeck, and if you draw one of those then you can find out pretty quickly what kind of countermagic you're dealing with. If you Peek on turn 2 and see no Daze, then they have to rip a Daze in one draw step in order to hose your in-combat Keep Watch, or else you're trading a turn's worth of mana to remove one of their more powerful counterspells or at least a Cursecatcher (disruption and a clock in the same card; a functional near 2-for-1).
The other relevant aspect of Keep Watch is the ability to go off after your opponent declares attackers, using it like an extra Meditate. While it doesn't play perfectly well after a Snap, you could potentially use a Keep Watch to draw 3-4 cards, then use Snaps and Repeals to remove all your opponent's creatures over the course of the combo. Then you can just Freeze him out and take 0 damage in combat, then let him die in his next draw step. I know that we typically go off in beginning combat because of the potential to use Turnabout or Cryptic Command to Fog and support that Brain Freeze, but Cryptic is too slow for the Merfolk match-up anyways, and that leaves maybe 2 Turnabouts that are just regular rituals instead of being game-ending-fogs. Usually if you can combo off to the point where you Freeze your opponent's deck and you have an extra Turnabout laying around, you probably can just use that Turnabout to boost your mana and let you make the Cunning Wish-->Blue Sun for 1 play anyways.
In the case of other match-ups, I have not gotten to use Keep Watch very mutch. It was really good against Zoo the 2 times I used it--once, it ate a red blast and I just comboed the next turn in response to my opponent's final card in hand, a lethal Chain Lightning, and the other time I drew 3 cards out of nowhere and was so far ahead. Something impressive about this spell is that it ignores Gaddock Teeg and the other hatebears, and that means it can aid you in digging for that bounce spell for said hatebear(s), and at the same time it's producing card advantage for you. Not that the aggro match-ups are bad, but it is nice to push percentages a bit further and stack the odds in your favor.
I don't think that time spiral is that good to us, ok it untap and draw but sometimes with FoI on grave and the shuffle effect that affects both players i am not sure if it's that great...Quote:
Originally Posted by cjva
I forgot to mention one thing that some guys may not know about twincast: imagine you play meditate and your op plays force on it than you response with twincast on meditate if your op counters the meditate the twincast fizzle...
Then you get a 4-for-2, which is exactly what a normal Meditate does. The only time that Twincast is bad is when you're casting your own spell and Twincasting it without passing priority, in which case your opponent's one counterspell will counter both of yours. But you should obviously only make that kind of play with Twincast if you know what you're getting yourself into (aka you either lose if your opponent has a counter anyways, or you have enough information to know that he can't possibly have a counter).Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphus
I have no idea how a 2-mana Time Spiral while your opponent is tapped-out could possibly be an obviously bad thing. If your FoI gets shuffled in, that means it's still in the deck for later use.
[SNIP - Warned for flaming ~NC]
honestly I can't imagine many situations where Solidarity should be afraid of any other storm deck. They all play at sorcery speed. You use their storm and murder them with it. It really is that simple in most scenario's.
Twincast is fine, as is a mindbreak trap... but I wouldn't go too far in on them in the board, as the deck doesn't need a lot of help in these matchups. I'd rather have more snaps / etc for the aggro matches.
Leegoo did you see the option i was considering for Twincast replacement? Each do you think is better?Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
Of the options there (and, I can't think of many others anyways) I think I want the snap most. This is the board I'm at as of right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphus
1 Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Meditate
4 Snap
1 Blue Sun Z
1 Rebuild
1 Dispel
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Twincast
I want 3 snaps in almost every aggro matchup... it is just so strong vs the aggro matches... and, sometimes it's just a blowout against dredge.
Echoing truth is the primary card missing from my board, and I'm not against it being a 1/1 split with CoV... however, for me it's the card that I never wish for over CoV.
On a side note, how do you like 2/2 split of Turnabout / Cryptic. I was on the 2/2 but moved back to 3/1, as (oddly as it sounds) i found turnabout to be just a bit more versatile.
@ I-Never-Smile
Keep Watch seems interesting. The question I have about it is how often you can afford to spend the six mana to draw 2-4 cards while under pressure.
I remember running keep watch in U/W when it was in standard... and it just never "helped" as I was generally just losing for it to be useful.
Still, Solidarity is a much different deck.
the 2/2 split is very good and imagine that you need to bounce or counter i honestly prefer the CC, and the draw effect is really good. On games that you have to produce more mana you already had reset + snap (imagine the ratio between "untapers" and "drawers" when you post board if you have the third turnabout you'll have a lot of trouble dealing with the lack of draw cards), if you run a version close to my version with repeal you will notice that post boarder games you don't tap creature you bounce them either to be able to draw or to be able to untap. I to have some thoughts on Chain vs Echoing but the question is the cmc, since you cannot use mindbreak trap vs merfolks and you have to be very soft on your mana since they play counters with "unless pay" issues. But the dredge thing and sometimes the multiple hate cards balanced the equation to Echoing's side...
By now i am sure that either i play with pierce or add the 3rd snap/chain, the thing is Pierce is more all around than bouncers... =/
Ok, time passed and i wanna try againg with this deck in a monoblue fashion. Here is my list to discuss. What do you think on running 3 repeal and 1 command split?
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
3 Meditate
2 Brain Freeze
4 Impulse
2 Cryptic command
4 Brainstorm
2 Turnabout
2 Repeal
2 Flash of Insight
3 Opt
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
12 Island
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Bluie sun's zenith
SB: 2 Snap
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Words of wisdom
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 2 Dispel
SB: 1 Peer through dephts
@cid - I'd rather have a third Brain freeze in the main. It's just such a useful card in so many situations. It also helps your threat density so you don't just auto die when you have to brain freeze yourself and mill away all your action in the first 12 cards...
Goldencid
I always like the possibility of more counters on the maindeck, with cryptic you have more 2 Fow, imagine discard matches: 1st you have to not fail landdrop ever! And a essencial vital point is to not allow your opponent to drop any kind of colck, so counter it (even if you have to waste a reset or a tide) is better than bouncing and cryptic will allow you to draw a card. Many times the repeal isn't enough as you need to tap the attackers, repeal often has a problem mid combo if you have nothing to bounce. Has counterbalance goes, repeal is very good but only because your opponent need to deal with cmc 3 and 4 (when mention the bouncing plan which btw is bad comparing to triggers stack cleansing)... The 2/2 portion makes you able to deal with more treats you might face and since not many decks kill us at 2nd turn we have a chance to look for the best solution through Impulse brainstorm, opt etc... Has decks like zoo you still have a great number of control options like Remand and the 2 repeal they provide the necessary solutions to your troubles.
Other important thing is related to you sideboard, think about this and than ask to yourself in case you already didn't: in which match up do you need the Peer? What do i side out that is worst than peer? instead of that peer why not the third repeal?
The other issue i find relevant is is the use of Words of wisdom since the blue sun zenith release in my opinion there's no use to it, sure is cmc is shorter but usually in instant kill matches you need to make your opponent to draw a massive number of cards.
It will depend on what you expect to play against but will rather use or a spell pierce or chain of vapor (sometimes the low cmc cost is very usefull against cards like choke)
Hope to be helpful ;)
since yesterday i am testing with the damn Spell pierce, it's not a great deal, it have the same problem as all the bounce spells (with the exception of repeal) of bouncing and than i lose a card from hand... I could stick the third snap but i don't know... bahh long time since i had a doubt on what to play on solidarity...
At this hour (23.46) and after a hard work and study day i'm mot sure i can explain properly the why of peer. The idea comes out because many times i was found with about 7 mana left in the middle of the combo without a cantrip in hand with almost the right storm count, so if i go wish, meditate i got screwed, but with peer i got 2 mana left for freeze and an additional card, maybe an untapper to make the storm count bigger. Sometimes i feel that i need a relevant instant in hand lefting some mana open, and meditate gives it terrible blind draw and screw our mana pool. I know, i know, it's a very circunstancial situation but the feeling of needing an "exact card" is not. Maybe is a fake feeling...Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphus
On CB cleansing...is the stack really clean??? Or i'm missunderstood??
You play tide, CB triggers, opo resp with top, you play another spell, cb triggers and so on, at the end of your spell chain there is a non-solved tide and the cb abilities in the stack waiting to be resolved.
It's almost that lol, but it's very unique each situation, the thing is full the stack with the all spells you can at the end brainfreeze your op ass and let him resolve the triggereds the probabilities of having the right cmc is less and probably you'll win...Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Mmmm...i'll see if i understood with an example:
My hand: tide + impulse + reset + freeze + BS
My table: 6 islands.
So i drop tide, cb triggers, my opo uses mana for top, i drop reset, cb triggers again, then BS, triggers once more, now i have 2 island untap do i play the freeze?? Or just let the triggered resolve see what's happens and try to go fot the win with wat i drew with bs and impulse??
Note: oponente has no fow in hand.
Here's my current list, which I believe to be the best one I've come up with yet. It's pretty much the same maindeck as always, but with a better sideboard plan (and fetchlands, since I finally bought some):
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
11 Island
4 Opt - I like the 4 Opt, 18 land plan more than the 20 land, no Opt one since you fizzle less. Peek is fine but is much worse at finding lands that are necessary to make the deck function properly, and you should be able to prepare for what's in an opponent's hand through intuition anyway.
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Peer Through Depths - I came to the realization long ago that they're better than running one more Freeze and Flash of Insight.
4 Cunning Wish - the four Wish, three Tide maindeck is just more consistent than four Tide, three Wish, even though it's now much harder to combo out on turn three. It's also just nice to have four Wishes to get whatever you need at the moment.
4 Force of Will - the necessary evil.
3 High Tide
3 Meditate
4 Reset
3 Remand - not only does it double the power of Brain Freeze, it's an excellent play against proactive decks and is what makes the deck good against control as well. I saw some people talk of cutting Remand for more draw effects like Three Wishes, but Remand is just too useful.
3 Turnabout
1 Thirst for Knowledge - think of it as a slightly worse Meditate #4, since you just pitch two useless lands while you're comboing off. Was formerly Twincast, which is a fine card as well, but Thirst helps prevent fizzling better while Twincast is more for making sure you can start going off against control, but with three Remands, I feel like I'm already good in that department. They both have their pros and cons I suppose. This one-of slot could either be those two or even a Repeal, since having a maindeck answer to Counterbalance/an aggro staller is nice.
1 Brain Freeze - one feels like the perfect quantity of Freezes. Running more than one allows you to take advantage of some of its awesome uses, like milling after an opponent's Enlightened Tutor, mising wins against combo by using their storm, or targeting yourself with one copy after putting back two lands with a Brainstorm mid-combo, but it's usually a dead card until you combo off, and those cases I mentioned do not occur very often. Plus, running four Wishes more than makes up for not running two maindeck Freezes.
4 Repeal - the only card I side in, everything else is a Wish target. Against aggro, I've been siding out 4 Forces for 4 Repeals to much success. Repeal on turn three is often game over. I like Repeal a lot more than Snap since untapping lands on a non-combo turn is much worse than just drawing a card.
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 High Tide
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth - for Goblin tokens mostly and Gaddock Teeg I suppose, since it's cheaper than Wipe Away. I could see ditching this.
1 Mindbreak Trap - mostly for combo, but also the offchance that the control opponent has played a spell and then two pieces of countermagic.
1 Wipe Away - for CB.
1 Rebuild - CMC of 3 dodges Chalice at 2.
1 Stroke of Genius - because it's just more ballin and iconic than Blue Sun's Zenith. Fuck Blue Sun's Zenith. I guess my excuse is that Zenith messes up the ordering of your library, which you might have needed to have memorized. The real reason is that I don't feel like spending money on a card that is minutely better than one I already have.
1 Ravenous Trap - I don't like this card in theory, but it does have applications against Dredge and Emrakul. Could easily be something else.
1 Cryptic Command - for when you've previously Wished for a Turnabout to untap lands, but can't Stroke an aggro opponent out the turn you take lethal. Can also realistically bounce Counterbalance. I just really like having this card in the 75 as an ace-in-the-hole since you can do so much with it.
Other cards I've been considering for the board as Wish targets- Pact of Negation, Dispel, Misdirection effects (like Misdirection or Divert), Twincast, Hibernation, Deluge, Command of Unsummoning, Consign to Dream, Keep Watch (definitely needs to be tested, but is an excellent find i-never-smile).
I'm finally free on Thursday nights, so I'll be able to pilot this at my LGS's weekly Legacy tournaments again. I hope to have a report up soon.
Also with twincast you can kill the tendrils player with their own tendrils which is simply hilarious if it does happen. They go 'tendrils you FTW?' and you go "twincast it? kill you?"
For those skeptical about twincasting time spiral, you just aren't doing it right. You get to draw 7 and untap all your lands. Seems amazing.
Copying ad nauseam is awesome because you'll be at a high life total. And our curve isn't outrageously high or anything.
I like twincast right now at least in the wishboard as a 1 of. It's pretty real IMO. MD would require testing though.
Trudeau couldn't thirst for knowledge just be three wishes or am I missing something. Three wishes essentially draws 3. TfK draws 3 and discards 2 lands in the right case if you have 2 lands. I would never play thirst for knowledge in this deck ever it just seems awful.
Keep watch is interesting tech. Only problem is if they're swinging for lethal you MUST combo out with it and it loses power when they know you have it sometimes. Or if they swing with just one dude it's bad. It's really conditional is what I'm trying to say.