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That's pretty much the plan when anybody has active hate like Relic or Crypt. The goal is to make the yard just interesting/pressing enough for them to pop it, while holding back stuff to recover with. To do that, yes, you have to Dredge into an active graveyard hoser. The sooner you do it against a fast deck like Merfolk, the better. Just like removing a band-aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
What I plan to play on Sunday:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
1 Angel of Despair
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Cit of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
SB:
3 Firestorm
4 Wispmare
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
The MD is meant to avoid ridiculous losses with the solo angel to deal with problem permanents, while staying as consistent as possible. Multiple Thugs are a lot worse than multiple Ichorids, Therapies, or Studies, so it was the last cut. My meta has a fair amount of dredge decks, and I have a feeling other GY decks will be popular, so hello leyline. I only fear leyline myself, so I have 5 answers to it. Wispmare dodges Mental Misstep, which is key. I am going to try to recover from getting crypted the old-fashioned way--stocking up answers and recovering when they've blown it. Going for Elesh Norn is cute, but weaker versus decks that don't actually combat step that much, and doesn't always do a great job of buying you time. I might want to squeeze in another DR, Firestorm, Ray and Grudge somewhere, but space is tight with Leyline.
Hey I think you need more ancient grudge, it is the best sideboard card. Crypt and relic are more likely than leyline, and grudge is also nice versus stax,painter, and affinity. Two of those matchups are trouble for us.
Also, I think four ichorids is too much, maybe a darkblast?
When facing a mirror match, is it better to sacrifice your one and only discard outlet by using cabal therapy in order to nail their bridge(s)? I've come across this situation before, but I wasn't sure what's the proper course of action. These match up, specially when it comes to dredge, you never really know what's going to happen in the next turn.
Having unfortunately played the mirror match many times over the past few months, I would say in general, yes, it would be a good move to remove their Bridges right away, even if it means sacrificing your only outlet. Disregarding any specialty Dread Return targets, Bridge from Below is far and away the most important card in the mirror. The entire focus of your strategy should be on maximizing the use of your Bridges in one turn while limiting as best you can your opponent's use of said enchantment, because the one with the most Zombie tokens in the end will win; this is because eventually, you will both be able to recur multiple Ichorids every turn and DR back a Grave-Troll or two, and the tokens act as invaluable chump blockers.
I never had the misfortune of facing a T1 Relic, but the deck actually has a few outs to it:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
-Discarding Phantasmagorian T1
-Revealing Chancellor of the Annex at the beginning of the game
-Cycling Street Wraith in response to the tap ability
-Leyline of Sanctity
-Casting two or more Gitaxian Probes T1
Yeah, Leyline's starting to get played more and more here because Dredge has seen a bit of a surge in popularity, as it's very enticing to newer players due to the price tag of the deck. It's why I'm probably not going to pick up the manaless build for a while, even though it's just oh-so-much fun.
Played in a small tourney last we with feldmans fearless dredge:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
SB:
4 Firestorm
3 Winds Of Change
1 Angel of Dispair
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Elesh Norn
1 Darksteel Colossus
only change was -1 tarnished citadel + 1 Ichorid MD, +1 Leyline SB.
1.st round against RW Goblins.
G1. 2nd turn Breakthrough seals the deal.
SB: - 4 Breakthrough -2 Therapy, +2 Elesh, +4 Firestorm.
G2: Slowdredge.... Cakewalk
2.nd round UGW thresh
G1: Slowdredge into enough therapies. Breakthrough 4tw
SB: -2 Breakthrough +2 Firestorm
G2: My Ichorids get sworded/ stifled, lands wasted, tokens enginieered explosived.... oh i got raped.
G3: 1 min on the clock, wasnt able to kill in my last extra turn.
3.rd round Countersliver aka Meathooks.
G1: Started with DDD after enough therapies i comboed him of.
SB: -2 Breakthrough +2 Firestorm.
G2: DDD, play around Crypt gg.
4.th round Abkack: (strange combo deck with Glimpse of Nature, Retract, Vedalken Archmage,...)
G1: Played 1st turn Therapy on Glimpse.... missed. He played Spoils of the Vault on Glimpse and Brainfreezed me to death.
SB: - 1 Ichorid +1 Colossus
G2: Colossus 4tw
G3: Therapied his Glimpse, retract and 1 thoughtcast instead of an Archmage. Oh fuck me.
He surely draw one artifact and comboed me off with Grapeshot (which he boarded in)
this loss was totally earned for my stupidity.
The correct sb plan should have been - 4 Ichorid, +1 Colossus, +1 Elesh, +2 Winds of Change
5.th round Combo Elves: He was the only player with 4-0 that time.
G1: Between therapies, tokens and breakthrough there wasnt much he can do.
SB: -4 Ichorid, 4 Tireless Tribe, -1 Cabal Therapy + 3 Winds of Change, +4 Firestorm, +2 Elesh Norn
G2: Flame waved him on t2, return elesh turn 3. GG
Overall 3rd place. Was quite impressed how the deck performed and how less graveyrd hate is played atm.
For the next time i ll drop the leylines for enchantment hate. Cuz Leyline is the only card im scared about.
Can you explain the reasoning behind Darksteel Colossus on your sideboard? I just don't get it.
Its just there for the "If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead." part.
This wins against High Tide, Painter and other strange mill combo decks as written above.
You remain with your deck into your graveyard and colossus as the only card in your library.
Draw colossus--> Cabal therapy on yourself, colossus get back into your library. Repeat if needed.
You can also take Blightsteel colossus, Legacy Weapon, Progenitus or one of the Lorwyn Reincarnations.
But NEVER use ane Eldrazi for this purpose
I don't get it still. This doesn't win at all against Spiral Tide as you just draw the cards, neither does it win against Painter. If the Painter mage Grindstones you , You have 1 card left in your Library, so you still lose, but only 1 turn later. I think Painter is able to stall til you don't have Therapies left.
Also "Abkack" is a insanly funny deckname :D:D:D:D:D
the recent counterspell suite for painter is 4 fow +4 mental misststep + 3 blasts.
It is very unlikely that they are able to counter all 4 therapies. And after 2 turns with a full graveyard (means 4 Ichorid, Narcomoebas, many tokens) you should be able to kill him.
Stalling isnt quite an answer cuz they are standing under a lot more preassure than you are.
And for the Spiral Tide Part. Yeah you're right.
BTW for our non german speaking friends. Abkack means loose badly in the metaphoric sense and take a shit in the direct translation.
I'm particularly interested in this test. I'm going to try firestorms maindeck, trying to rise the count of dredgers a bit as well, so that firestorm can discard a dredger that hits another dredger within the first dredge more easily, since I'm going to have less permanent discard outlets and will need this lucksack to happen more often when I don't DDD.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I reckon the regular list can beat tempo decks, but rising the chances with uncounterable discard, while helping against aggro decks looks promising.
It does not help against spiral tide. It is one card in the sideboard against one deck. It very is useful against painter's stone though. You can do the cabal therapy route, or if you have tribe or Pimp in play you will get infinite turns there as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
I guess SB is depending on the metagame of your zone but I just don't get why you're running 0 grudges. Darkblast >>> 4th Thug and 3rd Tarnished > 4th Ichorid IMO but thanks for revealing me Winds of Change, never heard of that card and I think I've just fallen in love with it *w*
Cuz testing has shown me that feldman was right. With the 4th Ichorid MD you can outplay most artifact based hate.
Thats also why I play the 4th Thug instead of the Darkblast.
Returning lost Moebas + Ichorid fodder is more important for me....
Additionally with one darkblast theres a high chance that it harms me more than my opponent. If i have the darkblast in my graveyard there should be enough bridges to win anyway.
The only creature i can think about where it matters is Peacekeeper.
And No deck playes them md.
Man, Perhaps LED lists should drop their Wispmare/Nature's Claim against random Leyline of the Void... It's just not worth it.
Usually, LED lists have 7~8 Gold Lands, which makes our probability of having Land + Wispmare/Nature's Claim + Business so small...
I've already kept hands against LotV when I could answer the goddamned Enchantment and still lose because I had no gas at all. Other usual possibility is Leyline of the Void followed by T1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek (which is pure evil, in my view D:) from Deadguy Ale/Rock/Suicide Black variants.
I don't know, but I feel like those 3~4 slots in sideboard could be used to improve (or even guarantee) other matchups, because facing a Leyline is often game.
My sideboard is the current:
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ichorid
1 Dread Return
1 Realm Razer
@vandalize:
In my LED dredge I use four chain of vapors. All of my lands produce blue mana. Also, if opponent throws a curveball with relic or jailer I can still answer it. Chain of vapor is rarely a dead card. It can timewalk versus a big KoR or Tombstalker.
LotV+first turn thoughtseize>all dredge decks
The latest List i've seen are LED less. What's the reason behind that?
Is it just thre price of LED?
With misstep being around LED seems sexy
Perhaps it's the price. 4 LEDs are usually worth the whole LEDless list, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by unicoerner
Still, I find LED's explosiveness amazing... Wouldn't leave them at home.
If you look at the latest tournament results you'll see that the vast majority of Dredge decks that placed well are in fact LED-less. It's been some time now that LED-less lists seem to be placing better than LED builds. I guess that explains why most people play without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by unicoerner
I highly doubt that it has anything to do with the price. If Legacy worked like that you would also see Wasteland- and Force of Will-less Merfolk builds placing better than the proven lists, but in fact that doesn't work at all.
All LED actually does for the deck is give it a slim chance for a turn 1 win and possibly play around Mental Misstep. The second argument again is a lot less valid than it seems:
Just imagine you play LED turn 1. Your opponent has a misstep and can't counter. So you crack LED and cast Breakthrough, which is of course misstepped. The only thing you've just accomplished is some Dredgers in your grave and nothing in your hand. I honestly think that DDDing and saving your draw spells for when you've therapied away your opponents permission would be a better place for you to be. And LED-less can do that just as well.
I fully agree with Izor.