[Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by TUMBLES

What's the appropriate play regarding Silence/Orim's Chant as an opponent of TES, say if you have a single Force as a counter?

I could see the benefit of Forcing it being to potentially bluff another counter and getting the TES player to play around it, but I don't see this as all that likely. Is it more likely to just add to storm count and the TES will just go for it anyways? Though, unless they are pulling an ETW I don't see the extra storm count being significant against a good player.

What are thoughts on this?

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Depends on the board state and why the TES player feels he needs to go off that turn. If he's attempting to go off because you have lethal on the board, it's slightly complicated. Forcing the Chant has no effect on his decision to go off that turn... he has no other option. So your Force not only adds 1 to the storm count, but the 1 life you paid for the Force could add another 1 to the storm count (if you went from 19->18, 17->16, etc). However, if he's at a low life total, Forcing the Chant could shutoff Ill-Gotten Gain, forcing him to try to Ad Nauseam or Diminishing Returns from a low life total. TES has a hard time winning through tutor chains (Infernal for Infernal for Infernal for Tendrils) because it doesn't play Cabal Ritual, so Forcing the Chant is probably still right to force him to go for a risky Ad Nauseam or Diminishing Returns, where you can draw into more counters and shut him down.

If you don't have lethal on the board, you should pretty much always Force the Chant. Benefits/negatives of Forcing:

Benefits:
-Can bluff additional counter magic. If lethal isn't on the board, he might pass the turn and wait to find another protection spell.
-Ill-Gotten Gains is a less likely win condition. You can now return the Force off IGG, potentially shutting that option down.
-If he goes for Diminishing Returns, you can draw into more countermagic.

Negatives:
-Add 1 (or 2) to Storm count.
-If he's just trying to bait a counter, you just wasted a Force.

A lot of TES players try to bait counters with Chant effects... I don't think I ever have and probably never will. I think it's a complete waste of a protection spell. It's like Duressing vs Non-Counterbalance blue decks on turn 1 when you can't go off for another few turns. Their hand is going to change so much that the information and card you grabbed is probably irrelevant. If the board state is that irrelevant (meaning he has no pressure), that you feel like you can throw a Chant out as a pseudo-Duress, you can also just hold the Chant, wait till you have the win in hand, develop your mana, and have 2 Chants the turn you go off instead of 1.

The only time I would bluff the Chant is if I Brainstormed this turn, have no way to shuffle, can't go off this turn but can (and have to) next turn, and I have 2 Chant effects and can only play one next turn. That's a pretty rare scenario.

Anyway... I'd Force the chant like 99% of the time.

I've bluffed a Chant because I would have discarded it anyway (I had more protection) - I was stuck on mana so I couldn't go off. I lost one life from the City of Brass and my opponent had one less piece of counter magic in hand when I went off a couple turns later. I think that is the only situation where I would "bluff" a Chant though.

Hi,
I been playing the first page 75 (if i would change something it would be a IGG in main)for the last month and i plan to bring it to the next legacy turnament.
The list felt better and better until yesterday when i tested vs Angel stompy and got hammered, Stax would be the same i guess.

A hard match-up, anyone have any quick fix tips. As raceing hate means winning the dieroll and win turn1 .
I found trini totaly wracked my play and chalice was manageble to play around.


for the chant bluff discussion, i wasted loads of chants/duress when i picked the deck up, and wasnt until i got greedy and saved stuff until i go off that my win % went up.

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Originally Posted by stasis

Hi,
I been playing the first page 75 (if i would change something it would be a IGG in main)for the last month and i plan to bring it to the next legacy turnament.
The list felt better and better until yesterday when i tested vs Angel stompy and got hammered, Stax would be the same i guess.

A hard match-up, anyone have any quick fix tips. As raceing hate means winning the dieroll and win turn1 .
I found trini totaly wracked my play and chalice was manageble to play around.


for the chant bluff discussion, i wasted loads of chants/duress when i picked the deck up, and wasnt until i got greedy and saved stuff until i go off that my win % went up.

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All Trinisphere/Chalice decks are an issue. It really is just getting lucky, and hopefully you can Chant proactively, and then you have to pray.

I never Chant bluff, there is no point.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

I never Chant bluff, there is no point.

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Why isn't there a point?

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Originally Posted by x8eikdls

lots of informative stuff

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Really helpful response! (others were too)

I missed the IGG angle and shutting off that pathway to victory can be pretty relevant compared to the other impacts; thanks for walking through the various situations. Though, I'm finding Ad Naus doesn't take as much life in this deck as it does in ANT at least.

I'm beginning to hate Diminishing Returns; I've been forced (as far as my TES newbie perspective could see) into that path all of 3 times, each of which I managed to draw not only dead hands but with 4+ lands in them too. Trying not to let statistical anomalies influence my opinion though :) In general though, that path is obviously supposed to be a last resort kind of thing? I can't see how it wouldn't be.

I've been reading the rest of the thread, and noted that the Pyroblasts are in the board because of difficulties with Counterbalance decks. It seems though, judging from SCG Opens, that CB's popularity is waning a bit and tempo decks such as Next Level Threshold and Team America are becoming increasingly popular. Would a switch back to Swarm be preferable in such a circumstance, or is CB prevalent enough that it's worth running the slight awkardness of Pyroblast even with it on the decline (for now)?

I also noted that Duress is (generally - seems there's always an exception with this deck :D ) bad t1 (which I agree with) if it's not for the win or against Counterbalance. If your opponent played a g1 t1 land that suggested the possibility of it being CB, would the Duress be worth casting? I have to say I would be tempted to.

Sorry for all the questions! I don't have the experience with the deck yet to know the correct answer.

Stax and Trinisphere variants are always going to be an awful match-up. If you know you're playing vs. a Stax deck, mulligan aggressively into a quick win or a hand with disruption. Keeping hands that require you to set up with Ponder/Brainstorm are generally going to be too slow. This is where EtW and Diminishing Returns shine, since it requires 1 less mana to use than Ad Nauseam. Other than that, always cast Duress/Thoughtseize ASAP, Chant-walk them if it's game 1, and play out all your artifact mana when you get the chance, so you don't lose to a Chalice at 0.

I'd swap the Pyroblasts for Xantid Swarm at the moment. Or a 3/2 split is also fine. I don't think the full set of Pyroblasts is worth it now, since the most popular blue decks are tempo variants.

A lot of the time, Diminishing Returns is an "oh shit" button. You're dead if you pass the turn, and it's you're only real option so you go for it. Other times, you go for Diminishing Returns because you realized this turn is your best chance to win, and it's the best option available to you. Like, lets say you're playing against BUG Landstill. They tapped out for Jace, Brainstormed, and shipped the turn. Since they're tapped out, the only counters they have access to is Daze and Force. This is your best chance to win. Once you let them untap, they now have access to Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Brainstorm to dig deeper, etc etc. Plus they'll have an active Jace to sculpt to their hand better than you can sculpt yours. If Burning Wish is the only business spell in your hand, you can either go for Empty or Diminishing Returns (IGG probably isn't an option vs. that deck). BUG Landstill plays 4 Pernicious Deeds. Chances are they either have 1, or can find 1, before Empty can kill them. Diminishing Returns is the best option here. Although the game isn't technically over if you ship the turn, you are giving up your best shot at resolving a business spell by doing so. Diminishing Returns isn't guaranteed, but its the best you can do in that sort of situation.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Why isn't there a point?

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Because Orim's Chant is protection, you only run 8 protection spells.

Maybe saying there is no point is a little extreme, but when you are first starting off, I would say, hold on to your Chants. Duress isn't quite as necessary to hold on to, but Chant definitely is (since it is by far your best protection spell).

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

I never Chant bluff, there is no point.

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Pretty much the only time I do it is if I'll have exactly enough mana to go off next turn and therefore won't be able to play chant on the turn I go off. Otherwise, it seems unwise.

So facing Chalice on 0 t1 and Trinisphere t2, best plan I could come up with was Bwish for Shattering Spree asap, but then I got Armageddon'd.

I don't THINK I missed any options, but was there another line of play I could have gone for?

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Originally Posted by TUMBLES

So facing Chalice on 0 t1 and Trinisphere t2, best plan I could come up with was Bwish for Shattering Spree asap, but then I got Armageddon'd.

I don't THINK I missed any options, but was there another line of play I could have gone for?

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Probably not. That match up is abysmal.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

Probably not. That match up is abysmal.

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Noticed, lol. Didn't help that I've only recently begun to be solidly successful while goldfishing.

More basic questions:

-Against a deck like Team America, is it generally preferable to play the artifact mana to keep it safe from Hymn or to keep it in hand to avoid something like engineered explosives? If I have Brainstorm I tend to keep it in hand and save the Brainstorm to either respond to Hymn with or until I know they would be topdecking it if they get it (unless, of course, the situation is such that earlier Brainstorm would lead me to a win with good % chance), but I'm not sure if this is the right way to go about it.

-Turn 1 win but unprotected vs unknown - go for it, correct? Odds they are playing a deck with Force and have it in hand seem small enough to make that an easy call. I think a weakness in my play right now is a tendency to wait too long because I want a guaranteed, protected win. Need to man up.

-Is a hand (again vs unknown) like - Scalding Tarn, Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Mine, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, Ponder a keep? Without a Brainstorm to put lands back on top of the deck, it seems like getting hellbent could potentially take awhile; the rest of the hand is attractive enough to me though (hopefully rightfully so; obv 1 less land would be nice). Does the answer change if you know you are playing against blue? Play or draw? Mulligans don't seem very rewarding with this deck, especially on hands that are somewhat close.

-Am I correct in thinking ETW is the wrong way to go after turn 2, maybe 3? This is the impression I've received from the rest of the thread.


Thanks to everyone who has been helping me out so far. I'm slowly falling in love with this deck - it's like an amazing puzzle that's different every time. Never been so mentally stimulated while playing the game.

Pretty sure Lorddotm is playing in the top 8 of SCG: LA right now.

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Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

Pretty sure Lorddotm is playing in the top 8 of SCG: LA right now.

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I think it's him as well. Exciting to watch, go lorddotm!

Yay, lost game 1 on a mull to 5, IGG'ed in g2, then Turn 1'ed his opponent g3. On to the semifinals.

Yep this is exciting :)

Sucked to have bolt, bolt, blast game 1 though.

Yeah, that is him. The live feed is up and he won his first match in the top 8 so ... lets see if TES can win the whole thing :)

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Originally Posted by TUMBLES

Noticed, lol. Didn't help that I've only recently begun to be solidly successful while goldfishing.

More basic questions:

-Against a deck like Team America, is it generally preferable to play the artifact mana to keep it safe from Hymn or to keep it in hand to avoid something like engineered explosives? If I have Brainstorm I tend to keep it in hand and save the Brainstorm to either respond to Hymn with or until I know they would be topdecking it if they get it (unless, of course, the situation is such that earlier Brainstorm would lead me to a win with good % chance), but I'm not sure if this is the right way to go about it.

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Engineered sees very little play. The card you would play around by holding your artifact mana is Pernicious Deed. Something to note, since Deed costs 3 to play and blow, EE costs 2. Generally playing out the artifact mana is better, but it's case dependent. A common scenario that comes up if you hold the LED to hide with Brainstorm in response to a Hymn, you would have to put back an LED + Infernal Tutor or Wish, meaning you can't win for 2 more draw steps. Whereas if you played out the LED, you can Brainstorm in response to Hymn, hide the Tutor, untap and win.

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-Turn 1 win but unprotected vs unknown - go for it, correct? Odds they are playing a deck with Force and have it in hand seem small enough to make that an easy call. I think a weakness in my play right now is a tendency to wait too long because I want a guaranteed, protected win. Need to man up.

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Man up and go for it. It's been said a lot in this thread, but they need to play a deck with Force to have it in their deck to begin with. Then they only have a 40% chance to have it, even if it is in their deck.

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-Is a hand (again vs unknown) like - Scalding Tarn, Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Mine, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, Ponder a keep? Without a Brainstorm to put lands back on top of the deck, it seems like getting hellbent could potentially take awhile; the rest of the hand is attractive enough to me though (hopefully rightfully so; obv 1 less land would be nice). Does the answer change if you know you are playing against blue? Play or draw? Mulligans don't seem very rewarding with this deck, especially on hands that are somewhat close.

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I'd keep it every time. Besides Brainstorm, you can also Ponder into LED to win turn 2.

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-Am I correct in thinking ETW is the wrong way to go after turn 2, maybe 3? This is the impression I've received from the rest of the thread.

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Depends on what your playing against. EtW vs Fish or Zoo or Burn past turn 2 is generally pretty awful. EtW vs Counterbalance and blue decks in general, can always be awesome. If you cast your Duress turn 4 vs Team America, see that the coast is clear this turn to go off with Infernal Tutor for EtW for a 2 turn clock, I'd do it. Especially so in post-board games, since most control decks will take out some, if not all, of their sweepers.

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So facing Chalice on 0 t1 and Trinisphere t2, best plan I could come up with was Bwish for Shattering Spree asap, but then I got Armageddon'd.

I don't THINK I missed any options, but was there another line of play I could have gone for?

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Your options are to win turn 1 through the Chalice or play 3 lands to BW for Spree. The match up is awful, but so is their deck... so you aren't too likely to play against at a big tournament.

Just took T.E.S. to a 12 person tournament today and finished 3rd.

Round 1 1 Affinity (Win)
12 tokens on first or second turn both games.
Game 2 we both mull to 5 and I get Infernal Tutor, Lotus Petal, LED, Land, Thoughtsieze. I draw Dark Ritual and go from there.

Round 2 Goblins (Win)
I get the nuts both games. We play a 3rd game and I get the nuts again. WOW. Game 2 I made a mistake and played Infernal Tutor instead of Burning Wish with Tendrils of Agony under my Chrome Mox... Oops... 12 tokens still win me the game though. He wasn't expecting storm sodid not have Mindbreak Traps. He brought in his Red Elemental Blasts to try to keep me off my cantrips. (I never played any though) Nice guy and quite familiar with the deck. He had countertop and wanted to test but we never got time.

Round 3 Dragon Stompy
This was my good friend. We both knew each other's decks. Game 1 I got lucky and was able to Duress away his Trinisphere and make a bunch of tokens on my turn after silencing him in response to his seething song the following turn. The smart play would have been to silence on his upkeep in case he topdecked another disruption piece but I'm a n00b and it was cooler the way I did it. If he'd lived another turn he'd have topdecked and played Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs OUCH!
Games 2 and 3 were classic way-too-much-disruption-to-handle-before-dying-to-several-red-creatures games.

Round 4 Zoo
This was another friend of mine. Game 1 I was forced to go off through Ad Nauseam that I hardcast from my hand at 10 life. I went all the way to 1 before I found a tutor. I was glad he didn't have a burn spell because Tendrils of Agony got me there after I played a bunch more spells.
Game 2 I whiffed on a Diminishing returns with BB floating... His clock forced me to go all in but I was just unsuccessful due to drawing 4 lands LED Lotus Petal Ponder and not finding anything with Ponder.
Game 3 This was the most retarded game ever. He got me to 6 and I went for Diminishing Returns again this time with UB floating and 2 untapped Lotus Petals on the board. I had to chain a bunch of cantrips but finally was able to hardcast ETW for 24 tokens. I have to keep tokens up to handle his creatures while I swing with the rest of my team. It was a tense several turns before I killed him because I was terrified of all of his burn but he didn't find any.

1st Burn (He went undefeated in both games and matches WOW!)
2nd Dragon Stompy
3rd TES (Me!)
4th Goblins

I love this deck. I had been playing Stax since picking up legacy and its nice to play a deck where you get to win games and then still have time to go see what everyone else is playing. I was disappointed to never have (or notice) an opportunity to go off with Ill-Gotten Gains. I used it a lot when testing but didn't play it once at the tournament. I was impressed with the power of Diminishing Returns even though it fizzled once... BB floating is a bad place to be in when you try for it.

Christ, TES might get raped.. What an opening by the PStone

A turn two kill with Painter's Servant/Grindstone with Force of Will back up will do that.