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I haven't played against it before, but it looks like it would be a nightmare match up. I don't know much about the match up, but I feel like early wasteland and devastating dreams is key considering how mana heavy they can tend to be. Also I think you should board out chalice. Maybe it is wrong, but I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hencules
Chalice is quite usefull, more so on the play. On the draw it's kinda meh. Wastelands certainly help. However, thinking about this, I think this tells me I need a slaughter games in the board. I can race to burning wish-- pact faster than they can assemble their stuff. And games on scapeshift is a great play. However, they still have 4 burning wish and a scapeshift in the board. That's the best I can think of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
0-2-1 tonight. The deck is fine. I'm just a terrible player... I'm losing confidence in my ability to play this deck (not that I ever thought I was good). Hopefully I can right the ship here. Otherwise I may end up switching decks again unfortunately :/ Other wise I played against Dredge in round 1 (third week in a row Ive played dredge in round 1 I believe), and got mauled. Round 2 I played vs. Shardless BUG, game 1 went long and he scooped. Game two I got battered by multiple goyfs, Game 3 Im not really sure what happened. I guess I just got outplayed. Round 3 was vs RIP Miracles with Blood Moon (Third week in a row vs this as well I believe) and it went to time. I lost game 1 (he plays 10 basics~!!!!!!!!!!!) finally to an eot Entreat for lethal. I win game two because he draws 3 lands (2 of them non basic and I waste him out), and game 3 we go to time. Im not really sure who would have won. It was still up in the air. Honestly I may just play 4 Leyline next week. No one plays storm up at my store anymore since Phazonmuant moved. All of the combo is dredge, and a decent amount of the fair decks are loam decks.
Meh, that sucks. I'm doing well in my meta, only Nic Fit is giving me trouble here. Lots of fair decks, lots of storm (both of which I have a good game against). Most decks remain a meta-call, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Yeah. Last night out of like 15 players I think 3 were on dredge (20 percent lol). My meta is just super weird right now and I probably should tweak it a bit for the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hencules
I managed to top 4 split at Megadeus's store last night. I'm running the stock 4C List except with no Bobs, -1 Burning Wish and -1 Badlands for +2 Goyf, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 GSZ and +1 Bojuka Bog. Sideboard is the usual fare but with a Massacre instead of the Chainer's Edict. Our store is obsessed with durdly graveyard decks so I decided to maindeck the Ooze and Bog to metagame.
Rd 1 was 2-0 against Meekstone White Weenie
Punishing Fire and Chalice for 1 stop a lot of his early beats, with a Devastating Dreams killing 3 creatures and wiping his board while leaving me with a Goyf and a fat KotR. A timely Meekstone locks me down for several turns while he rebuilds with a Mirran Crusader. I hurrdurr and forget that Nantuko Monastery is green and white and not colorless and chump attack with it into his Crusader. Another Devastating Dreams wipes his board again and I kill him with the Insect Monk.
Round 2 he has an extremely slow start and I eventually just DD him again with a lethal KotR.
Rd 2 was 2-0 (!) against Dredge
He starts with a PImp and I start with a Chalice on 1. He discards a Stinky Imp with his PImp but brainfarts and forgets to dredge on his turn 2. He plays a second land and Breakthroughs but gets a bit unlucky and doesn't flip another dredger after his Imp. A couple turns pass and he builds up a board of 3 Narcomoebas, a zombie token and some Ichorids while I have a KotR and a Goyf. He goes for the Dread Return on Griselbrand and I sink him in the Bojuka Bog. He can't rebuild in time through my Chalice and main Ooze causes him to scoop.
G2 I keep a hand with Bog, Waste and Loam. T2 Bog slows him down again while I build towards Wasting my own Bog, and then Loaming+Replaying. I herpderp somewhere on T5 and play a land before I Waste my Bog and Loam it, giving him another turn to do shenanigans but once again his dredges prove mediocre. He brings me very low with a Threshold PImp and 2 Nacromoebas, but I eventually Wish for a DD and kill him.
Rd 3 - ID with Stoneblade.
Quarterfinals 2-0 Shardless BUG
I start with Chalice on 1 and then later a Chalice on 0. He Decays my first Chalice and plays a DRS and Brainstorm. I kill his DRS and build up mana while he plays out 2 Shardless Agents - the first of which gets him an Ancestral Visions (hah!) and the second of which gets a Baleful Strix. I proceed to Devastate his Dreams and smash him with a KotR and a ScOoze.
G2 plays out similarly, I get a KotR and get to work ravaging his manabase. At one points he FoWs my Loam so I can't double waste him in one turn. I make a Wish and Devastate his Dreams once again, leaving him with nothing (but a suspended AV) and me with everything. His AV goes off and he makes a Nihil Spellbomb, shrinking my Knight to non-lethaI. I make a few misplays where I allow him to get back to 2 mana to Decay my Knight and then promptly dredge my other 3 Knights and a Goyf away. I probably make another misplay where I decide to Loam back my Waste to kill another land instead of murdering a DRS. However, he declines to eat my Loam and then dies to a followup Goyf.
~~
TL;DR - As mentioned in the thread, most Legacy decks simply cannot ever beat a resolved Devastating Dreams. With popular decks running fewer and fewer counterspells, Loam seems pretty well positioned (3 Loams in te t16 at the latest open I think). BUG and Deathblade seem like easy matchups - no basics and only a few FoWs to protect its dreams. Sucks that Megadeus has been having such poor luck - he gets the worst matchups every week.
Your Dredge opponent forgot to Dredge? FMLQuote:
Originally Posted by Tyrio
Why do I have to play vs the competent dredge players?!
I mean part is my MUs but part is play skill as well. That game you played vs Shardless was a good one. Much better than when that same Shardless player somehow ended up beating me.
So in regards to Volrath's Stronghold: I love it. Lately I have been finding myself in a few awkward positions where I have cast Devastating Dreams just to hit the reset button. I know, I know. Risky play! It hasn't lost me a game yet though since we are running 26 lands and are much more likely to recover first. Volrath's has been the deciding factor in these games since I am aggressively dredging and throwing my beaters in the yard. I am starting to really enjoy this deck! I'm still undecided on Bobs vs. Goyfs though...
Bobs and goyfs are a meta call IMO. Bobs have been working great for me, so I'll keep them. Hoogland has discussed Volrath's stronghold and why he doesn't like it. He says that since it isn't intended to make mana (and you don't want to cut utility lands or a color land for it), you should cut a spell for it. And since space for spells is so tight, there's very little you could remove for a copy of stronghold without making the deck worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmankevinx
When playing correctly (which I, by all means, am not even close to do), you'll often won't need it. In a multiple-round tournament, where fatigue might cause error, having that bit of buffer might be nice though. When I play around the kitchen table, advantageous situations where stronghold gets me the kill often allow me to kill some time later without it anyway. It feels like win-more to me.
I play the Bob-Hoogland list, but -1 Bob and +1 devastating dreams. It's just thát powerful IMO.
Me and my roommate just split a set of goyfs so I'll be trying out 2 giyf Wednesday and then, SCG ATL this weekend! Hopefully you guys will see me playing on my prime titan play mat!
Awesome! Would love to see a report of it, later on. I still could use all the information on the deck I can get!Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
GL this weekend!
Thanks! I will definitely need it! Having played against Dredge three weeks in a row and Blood Moon/RIP miracles every week pretty much has torn my heart out at the local. My goal truthfully is to finish the tourney and have a positive record. Ive never finished an SCG event... Best I have gone is 4-3 (drop). Hopefully I can change that this weekend!
Also it has been super cool seeing Loam decks top 8'ing and being on feature matches lately.
@Megadues: Good luck at the SCG please let us know how it went.
I just started playing this deck and it is my new favorite KOTR deck. I just piloted it to a 4-0 at my local with the following match ups and list.
Lands 26
Wooded Foothills 4
Wasteland 4
Tranquil Thicket 2
Forgotten Cave 2
Grove of the Burnwillows 2
Taiga 2
Karakas 1
Nantuko Monastery 1
Badlands 1
Bayou 1
Plateau 1
Dryad Arbor 1
Savannah 1
Forest 1
Bojuka Bog 1
Maze of Ith 1
Artifacts 8
Chalice of the Void 4
Mox Diamond 4
Green 9
Life from the Loam 3
Tarmogoyf 2
Sylvan Library 2
Green Sun's Zenith 2
Red 9
Burning Wish 4
Punishing Fire 3
Devastating Dreams 2
Gold 8
Knight of the Reliquary 4
Abrupt Decay 3
Gaddock Teeg 1
Sideboard 15
Ethersworn Canonist 2
Abrupt Decay 1
Slaugher Games X1
Gaddock Teeg X1
Massacre X1
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 4
Devastating Dreams 1
Life from the Loam 1
Maelstrom Pulse 1
Reverant Silence 1
Shattering Spree 1
Round 1: Zoo Went 2-1. Chalice for 1 g1, got bolted out g2 and then Wasteland locked him out g3.
Round 2: Painter Stone: Had Diamond and AD and Bog opening and was able to keep them of the combo G2 my opp got mana fucked and I stole one.
Round 3: DnT: Devastating Dreams won me G1 and G3. Lost to a B Skull G2.
Round 4: AnT: Runner runner chalice G1 got it done, lost g2 and had the full hate out g3.
I love this deck, so much fun to play and so many ways to play it. I am making a few changes and was looking for some feedback on a few questions. I am cutting one of the Tarmogoyfs for a Terravore to test out this Saturday. I want to cut Slaughter Games, Teeg, and Massacre out of the board to put in 3 Bobs. I want to add Bob because it seems wrong to not play Bon in a deck with 34 zero costs and nothing over 3. I see Bob has gone in and out of different lists over the history of the deck and I was wondering if anyone could give me some insight into that evolution. I understand that the mana base isn't that black friendly and that DD is bad for Bob, but is that really enough to warrant not running what is one of the best cards in magic? I've seen some creature configs like:
KOTR X4
Bob X4
Teeg X1
Which looks amazing, but I haven't tried it out yet. Does that force you to choose Crusher over KoTR to drop white? Just kind of running ideas around in my mind. Is Dreadbore really warrant a sb slot? It seems like everyone runs one, but I haven't needed one yet.
Anyway, any and all sideboard insights welcome.
cheers!
defector
A few questions regarding this list, the general decklists everyone has posted has 5 Cycle lands and you play 4? Did you just feel that a Bojuka Bog MB was better? People still run Bob to great success and I do not see why it wouldn't work out! Goyf just has better synergy with the decks gameplan, but Bob is great for drawing cards. In a Miracles heavy meta or something of the sort he is definitely a great CA engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by defector
I think KOTR and white are definitely where you want to be in this deck. Land Tutoring with KOTR and having acces to real combo hate is just awesome. I have used dreadbore allot. Probably the second most out of my SB slots (after Loam). But that is because I seem to play a Jace deck every week.
This week I will be playing Reverent Silence and Shattering Spree over Hull Breach and Duress. I havent wished for Duress in a long long time. I may also play a Morning Tide as well due to Dredge being so heavily represented in my meta right now... That one was Tyrio's idea though.
I wanted another source of black as well as the gy disrupt main. The fifth cycle land seemed like it was least necessary. I guess the Miracles density drives the Bob vs Goyf debate, makes sense. I'm still too new to the deck to claim any expertness, I may be totally wrong about the bog. I love KotR and couldn't cut him. I haven't tested dredge at all morningtide seems like a draconian solution, but hey if thats what it takes than so be it. Looking forward to yourresults.
Thats fair. I will not claim to be a good player at all so Im sure that a majority of my decisions are below average. I have also debating cutting a cycle land at times, but I also like them because not only are they our uncounterable draw spells, they also can second as a bad basic land if needed. But cutting one may be right. To anyone playing Horizon Canopy over the third Tranquil Thicket, how has that been for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by defector
I dont like Horizon Canopy on Loams deck. You have to pay 1 mana and lose a land to draw a card, which is the same as paying 1 for a cycle land (which you WANT on the GY) and draw the card. In aggro loam you dont have any booster to get presence on board as Lands deck do with exploration. So, losing a land for a draw seems pretty bad to me, and Im telling you this with testing not just words
I believe it. I just like that it is a T1 source of mana. I have a lot of hands where I have Mox Diamond and 2 Tap lands and wish the cycle land would be able to cast my chalice for 1 or something On t1. Just my random thought, but yes I see what you are saying about Canopy taking up a land drop hurting allot.
The killing part about this deck is the lands we dont get to play. Id love an academy ruins, v stronghold and second karakas, but we end up with only 1 flex slot. I think at the end of the day you can't kill yourself over the 60th card, but in my mind they rank: bog>V. Stronghol>cycle#5>academy ruins>Karakas#2. I think you could any one of them and see good things thats just how they rank up in my mind.
I play 61 cards :p 2 Flex Slots ftw