[Deck] GW/x Maverick

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Haven't playtested Punishing Fires but I haven't heard a description of the purported advantages to running a third color that sound better to me than just running more Thruns and/or Ledgewalkers and a second Jitte (if running SFM.)

I mean I already feel like I have infinite removal in my straight g/w build so I feel no compulsion to splash for removal that can't hit big guys (although it would be nice against Planeswalkers, I admit.)

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In the standard GW lists, you only run 4x StP main and 2-3 PtE in the board.

With a pFires list, you get to add 3+ pFires to your main which gives you a considerably higher density of removal especially considering you can recur it with Groves (even doing it once before it gets Wastelanded is very powerful).

With the GW list, I have too many times opened a solid hand with no removal and then my opponent drops a Mom T1. Even opening 1 removal spell isn't enough many times since they drop Mom and you have to deal with it and have nothing left for the followup Knight.

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Originally Posted by arcannys

Planeswalkers are not a problem for this deck, against control deck you should win most of the times. All that matters right now is having an edge in the mirror and winning combo deck. P fire was good the first time someone thought about it, now all the GW players are aware of it and know how to play around it, so its not rlly that good. I definetly think that the GW version is the way to go. The main strategy is to hold your wastelands for when they land a grove, and try to zenith for big creatures rather than the utility ones like scryb ranger (all I do in the straight GW mirror). Thrun and ledgewaker helps a ton, and you can also set up a situation where they are only able to Pfire once, and you zenith for Ooze with 2-3 mana untapped to save it from Pfires.

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I'm not entirely sold on Ledgewalker as some sort of mirror breaker. Maverick runs plenty of answers to equipment and once you deal with their equipment, Ledgewalker gets really bad.

Things you say for GW to do against pFires (getting Thrun, Ledgewalker, Ooze, use Wasteland) are things that the pFires lists can do as well. However, on top of that, pFires lists get to beat active Moms in the mirror as well as keep removal back for your Knights whereas GW builds have to spend important removal on Moms and have a pretty tough time getting through an active Mom at all.

You know what beats the mirror?

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ala/9.jpg

That is all.

I've been boarding her in with Thopters and in Rock, and she's fucking great. I was thinking Thrun and such, but Elspeth is just a house, in general. Thanks for the friendly reminder.

-Matt

Oh yeah Elspeth is great. I've also been playing around with the Natural Order tech for the mirror and that's been pretty ridiculous as well.

Board out your SFM package (leaving just Jitte in), your opponents will oftentimes bring in artifact hate, bring in your NO package and next level them!

Do you know what REALLY beats the mirror?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/nph/2.jpg
You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by zulander

How do I do autocard? Sorry...

Here's my list:

Creatures: 20
4 Mother of Rune
3 Noble H.
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Stoneforge
4 Knight
1 Thrun
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage

Non-Creatures: 17
2 E. Tutor
1 Sylvan
1 Top
1 Elspeth
3 Swords
1 O. Ring
1 Birthing Pod
4 Green Suns Zenith
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Crucible

Mana: 23
4 Winswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Horizion Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Sterring Wildwood
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
1 Ancient Den
1 Tree of Tales

Board:
1 E. Tutor
1 Choke
1 COP: Red
1 E. E
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Kitchen Finks

So I've taken the concept of "packages" to the extreme with this build making it probably the most resilient deck I've ever played. The E. Tutor's in the main help with boarding in extra cards while also finding removal, equipment, mana, etc...

The deck runs 4 packages main:
GSZ
Stoneforge
Knight
E. Tutor

Most of the time when I resolve a Knight I go and get a crucible so I can just do nasty stuff like draw two cards a turn/wastelock/etc...

If I get a stoneforge than I usually E. Tutor for a Birthing Pod so I can get some dudes. I put Gaddock Teeg in the board as there aren't that many combo players in my meta.

The board is pretty straigtforward, for blue decks bring in the Choke and Scryb Ranger, for burn bring in COP Red/Finks/E. Tutor for Dredge bring in E. Tutor/Wheel/Crypt etc... You get the point.

This deck is such a blast to play, I don't know why people don't play it more.

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Gonna play this this upcoming weekend. Any last minute advice?

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Originally Posted by arcannys

Do you know what REALLY beats the mirror?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/nph/2.jpg
You're welcome.

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A reactive, situational instant single-handedly beats the mirror? :eyebrow:

wth..?
-1 top +1 sylvan library
cut those bad artifact lands and add real lands.

I would recommend trying out Wave before dismissing it. It's a lot more powerful than people seem to think.

I would also strongly recommend against a list with 0 Goyfs. There's entirely too many situations where a 3 mana 4/5 or 5/6 is the best value you can get out of GSZ.

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Originally Posted by zulander

Gonna play this this upcoming weekend. Any last minute advice?

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Don't play artifact lands?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I would also strongly recommend against a list with 0 Goyfs. There's entirely too many situations where a 3 mana 4/5 or 5/6 is the best value you can get out of GSZ.

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Goyf is garbage in this deck. It isn't big enough.

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Originally Posted by majikal

A reactive, situational instant single-handedly beats the mirror? :eyebrow:

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I know its kind of a pet card, but it's actualy very good, and can lead to big blowouts.
Our opponent is also playing 4 zenith, so a zenith into qasali is a very common play when they saw your jitte. When they pass the turn with qasali+ 1 mana untapped, you equip jitte and attack, give pro green to jitte and conect. Thats entertainment.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

In the standard GW lists, you only run 4x StP main and 2-3 PtE in the board.

With a pFires list, you get to add 3+ pFires to your main which gives you a considerably higher density of removal especially considering you can recur it with Groves (even doing it once before it gets Wastelanded is very powerful).

With the GW list, I have too many times opened a solid hand with no removal and then my opponent drops a Mom T1. Even opening 1 removal spell isn't enough many times since they drop Mom and you have to deal with it and have nothing left for the followup Knight.

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I run a 2 Elspeth/2 Parallax Wave split that renders defensive Moms pretty much useless. That and Jitte+Thrun tend to take care of any problem I can imagine PFire fixing without damaging the mana base.

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I'm not entirely sold on Ledgewalker as some sort of mirror breaker. Maverick runs plenty of answers to equipment and once you deal with their equipment, Ledgewalker gets really bad.

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No, they don't. The only answer to equipment itself is Pridemage, Maze and StPs obviously don't work on Ledgewalker.

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Things you say for GW to do against pFires (getting Thrun, Ledgewalker, Ooze, use Wasteland) are things that the pFires lists can do as well. However, on top of that, pFires lists get to beat active Moms in the mirror as well as keep removal back for your Knights whereas GW builds have to spend important removal on Moms and have a pretty tough time getting through an active Mom at all.

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I mean as I and other cards have noted there are lots of ways to break apart the mirror in GW, even through active Moms, yes.


On a side note I recommend against Natural Order as a crutch plan for the deck since it leaves you absolultely cold to Perish.

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Originally Posted by arcannys

I know its kind of a pet card, but it's actualy very good, and can lead to big blowouts.
Our opponent is also playing 4 zenith, so a zenith into qasali is a very common play when they saw your jitte. When they pass the turn with qasali+ 1 mana untapped, you equip jitte and attack, give pro green to jitte and conect. Thats entertainment.

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Generally speaking, it's a bad idea to play reactive cards in a proactive deck unless it's a repeating effect, especially if you're not running a full set. You're not guaranteed to have it when it matters, and it's a terrible topdeck. I dunno, while the idea is saucy, I think the math is stacked against it.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Goyf is garbage in this deck. It isn't big enough.

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I notice that the situations in which Goyf isn't huge are the situations in which all my problem permanents and GSZs are resolving and sticking, in which case I'm going to win anyway.

Goyf is a great redundant threat in that if they deal with everything else they do so by giving you a 5/6 or 6/7.

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Originally Posted by majikal

A reactive, situational instant single-handedly beats the mirror? :eyebrow:

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Faith's Shield seems almost strictly better; it can protect Planeswalkers and Library, if you're in an otherwise bad situation it can enable a surprise reverse alpha swing, and it can also stop Tendrils decks from winning (albeit not before they gain a bunch of life, but still,) or counter the last and lethal burn spell an opponent lobs at you etc..

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Faith's Shield seems almost strictly better; it can protect Planeswalkers and Library, if you're in an otherwise bad situation it can enable a surprise reverse alpha swing, and it can also stop Tendrils decks from winning (albeit not before they gain a bunch of life, but still,) or counter the last and lethal burn spell an opponent lobs at you etc..

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100%. It also protects a land from Sinkhole or Vindicate. There are enough uses for this card that I would actually consider it (but there are still probably a lot of better options).

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Originally Posted by majikal

Generally speaking, it's a bad idea to play reactive cards in a proactive deck unless it's a repeating effect, especially if you're not running a full set. You're not guaranteed to have it when it matters, and it's a terrible topdeck. I dunno, while the idea is saucy, I think the math is stacked against it.

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I know, i was being kind of sarcastic, but i've actualy played it in a D&T build before ad it's always been awesome. More than what the card does, it about the surprise factor. I always like to mix things up and confuse my opponents. Specialy those bad players that only netdeck their lists.
The most relevant part is that it can protect your equipments too, which are the most important tool in the mirror and against control too.

PD: faithless shield seems strictly better wohoo!

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Originally Posted by arcannys

I know, i was being kind of sarcastic, but i've actualy played it in a D&T build before ad it's always been awesome. More than what the card does, it about the surprise factor. I always like to mix things up and confuse my opponents. Specialy those bad players that only netdeck their lists.
The most relevant part is that it can protect your equipments too, which are the most important tool in the mirror and against control too.

PD: faithless shield seems strictly better wohoo!

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http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/44.jpg

Seems better than both of those options, especially for the Alpha-strike. In no way is it playable however.

it doesnt protect artifcts/sylvan, its a 2x1 on yourself and it cant counter a lethal tendrils. How is it better? That card is miles away from shield and blessing.
Giving pro green to your jitte in resp to qasali its probably GG.

I remember reading Drew Levin talking about Perish being bad and you shouldn't play it, since Natural Order isn't around anymore. But, I'm not really sure what he's talking about, since Virtue's Ruin is decently insane against us. I'd also go against the NO plan out of the board, even if it seems super good in the mirror (unless you're fighting Maverick for 8 rounds, then sure, but anything with Black is packing Ruin/Perish, or maybe I'm the only one?).

-Matt