Obviously in a Meta full of COTV Chain is a bit worse... But I think in an SCG Meta Vapor is better because you are more likely to see stuff like Thalia and other random Hatebears that Chain is a Bit Better.
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Obviously in a Meta full of COTV Chain is a bit worse... But I think in an SCG Meta Vapor is better because you are more likely to see stuff like Thalia and other random Hatebears that Chain is a Bit Better.
Did this the other day, but it was for showboating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
yeah that's kind of what I meant, showboating. I guess the closing arguement for Chain is that it can be used to build storm on your own artifact mana.
Doesn't that go against the purpose of why you bring in bounce? I was under the impression that Chain of Vapors gets sided in for removing large enchantments and hate bears. I didn't think you bring it in to build storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I think it's great that you can do it. I just don't think we should keep a card because of that reason and neglect the fact that it's simply not as good as removing multiple threats.
The fact of 1 mana vs 2 I think is the determining factor. With Thalia out chain costs 2 which is much easier than 3 for echoing truth
I didn't say I brought it in to use it as a Storm engine. There was nothing to bounce and I had a Burning Wish in hand. I needed a way to generate storm and Chain does that while being the most cost effective card. Truths time is gone in my eyes, the printing of Abrupt Decay made that very clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
Chain of Vapor is awesome in its versatility. I always include at least a couple in all Storm decks I run.
Why do you guys think ANT has been doing well over multiple tournaments, but TES has only done well recently in SCG Edison? (props to Bryant, Ning, and John Gatza)
I feel that TES is the stronger deck, so perhaps it has seen much less adoption outside the New England area? To the Euros - how common is TES vs. something like Cabal ANT or DDFT?
I think the only TES pilots I've ever seen are Jupiter games people, me and Megadeus in Atlanta, and Koby in Cali.
We have some local TES players in Colorado as well. I was playing it for a bit, but haven't picked it up for quite a while. Clown of Tresserhorn is our local TES shark though - have to say I was rather disappointed he didn't take it to GP Denver this year.
I also agree that this has always felt like the stronger deck vs. ANT to me. The wasteland "vulnerability" is an illusion because TES goes off so much quicker, and has the best Ad Nauseums ever. I honestly can't see why you'd want to wait around until T3-4 to win with Past in Flames with Deathrite Shaman everywhere.
I mea it is probably due to the mana base. Players feel like they are already taking a chance on a combo deck and they feel like the mana base is too risky. Also when people hear of Tendrils decks in Legacy they hear of ANT and not TES as much. ANT is a more proven commodity as well. I recently traded some of my TES stuff, but I may still attempt to borrow stuff to play it again at SCG ATL in April.
For what I know, TES is the most played storm combo in Helsinki and probably in whole Finland. Belcher seems to be the second, and hardly no one plays DDFT. ANT goes somewhere near belcher. Last weekend there was a legacy tournament in Helsinki and I heard there were 4 TES and something like 20-25 players. One of them split the finals with some Show and Tell deck, if I understood right.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I find ANT to be less consistent than TES as well, based on my own testing and tournament experience. Being the slower deck, ANT has more issues with cards like Counterbalance & Deathrite Shaman than does TES. This is a big enough issue to warrant playing TES.
Obviously I think that's true too, but it doesn't answer the question of why ANT has been doing better than TES. It's not particularly close, either. It could be that we're both wrong about TES being better, but I'm trying to see if anyone has a good alternative hypothesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
As an upstate New Yorker, I am also baffled with how ANT is fairly consistently a "tier 1" deck while TES is not. I think I've played against ANT like once or twice in my entire legacy career while I play against TES almost every tournament, sometimes multiple times a tournament. Also, to me it seems pretty apparent that TES is better in almost every regard.
I think a big part ANTs success is that ANT is just easier to play, and therefore played more often, often times by grinders. Compared to TES it is a pretty linear deck. You only have a couple ways to about getting the storm you need, and you have even less interaction to worry about because of the whole basics thing. A novice storm/legacy player would do better with ANT than TES, only because of the learning curve. This makes ANT the go-to deck for players who might be really good magic players, but are only playing storm because it is good that week, in that meta, and don't actually have much experience with the archtype, or maybe even with Legacy.
TES has more lines of play, which may result in a higher skill cap and more punishing when a play mistake is made.
ANT really only has one goal - to be able to tendrils for lethal. TES however has alternative kill methods such as EtW, grapeshot, as well as having a wishboard. The fundamental speed of the deck also compresses decision-making towards the first few turns of the game which again give more room for error.
Just my 0.02
I wouldn't discount ANT's better long game or that extra resiliene basics and maindeck PiF give that quickly. Few plans survive contact with the enemy. Cabal Rit and tutor chains just have a ton of raw power, something which at times feels missing from TES - it's explosive but peters out fast. Cabal Rit also makes ANT's PiFs much, much better than TES's at the cost of worse Ad Nauseams. Probe and a heavy discard suite are pretty nuts, too. That said, ANT is also a bit simpler to pilot.
ANT durdles too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I played a lot of ANT and Dark Confidant is the card I relied on the most in all the matches I've won. It helps you to fight trough all the discard decks and also gives you the edge versus control decks. I'm not the only guy siding that card, and it might have helped ANT survive the current meta.
ANT has the tools to win in the late game and can rebuilt wrecked hands. However, because it is the slower combo deck it has to win trough Past in Flames 90% of the time and therefor suffers from DRS and RIP... But that's why a couple of Dark Confidant beatings combited with a tutor-chain-tendrils often is the way to go.
Note: I'm not saying ANT is better than TES, I also play TES and won't ever call it weaker. I'm also not advocating for Dark Confidant in TES sideboards, allthough I''ve seen some people running it.
I just love TES sometimes just going... Land Rit rit, petal mox wish/tutor make 12 dudes go? The ETW plan against Leyline is sick. Also having silence in combo mirrors = insane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Quoted for truth. I think ANT is very linear and much easier to play. It's all about powering out the mana to drop Ad Nauseam or Past in Flames. TES has the same type of power in experienced hands, but it is more of a deck of finesse than power (and that's why I like it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
The fact that ANT can just Cabal Ritual with Threshold and Ad Nauseam makes it far easier to play than Dark Ritual, Rite of Flames into Ad Nauseam. That said, maybe Bryant should mock up a list for beginners: Baby-TES, the almost EPIC storm. Something that'll get new players familiar with the Black and Red without the complications of different Burning Wish routes and multiple storm engines.
For awhile, people LOVED the idea of 2x Ad Nauseams. That made the deck simpler.
TES has the same tools, but has more ways to rebuild wrecked hands. As I mentioned in the ANT thread replying to you, Brainstorm, Diminishing Returns, Ad Nauseam, and Past in Flames make discard a minor issue. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post710191Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans89