[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

@Nick: That was 2005. This is now. This is the era where Burn and Goyf Sligh-type decks are actually played. The life total arguably matters more now. Whether it's enough to warrant including/not including the fetchlands is up for debate, but the terrain's a little different. Although you could make the counter-argument that almost nobody plays Stifle anymore, which makes the fetches better.

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In 2005 burn was pretty big, especially in the GP. A lot of players that didn't play legacy played in that event. So you saw a lot of ports from extended and that included RG/Zoo variants along with burn. Those matchups are bad for goblins already, I don't think if you play with or without fetchlands are going to make that big of difference in the long hall.

Plus, you don't want to be drawing land after the first few initial turns. You want to be drawing threats in order to end the game. No fetches will include bigger land clumps in the deck which will lead to inconsistency.

If we go to the current year 2008 then mono-red should not be considered. This is the era of fetches and multi color decks. I think the R/b/g version is the best, but thats just my opinion. The time for Rishardan Port has also ended.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

Plus, you don't want to be drawing land after the first few initial turns. You want to be drawing threats in order to end the game.

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I don't necessarily agree with this. Goblins rarely runs into situations where it can't find ways to spend its mana, thanks in large part to Ringleader and Matron refilling hands, the fact that we run 5-drops, and the fact that said 5-drop has a :1::r: activated ability that's always nice to be using. I very often want to be topdecking land to maximize using what I have in my hand, and I find I'm very often on the end of "More cards in hand than I can play" rather than "More mana than I can spend."

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No fetches will include bigger land clumps in the deck which will lead to inconsistency.

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True, but not to as large of a degree as you make it sound. The Ringleader argument is a good one, but deckthinning just to deckthin is highly overrated, especially in a deck that can afford to be hitting midgame land drops.

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If we go to the current year 2008 then mono-red should not be considered.

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Mostly agree with this point. I think Mono-Red can still win and I think it has its strengths, but I don't think it's optimal. Mono Red lost a lot of consideration way back when Tin-Street Hooligan got printed, in my opinion. Warren Weirding made black a decent option as well.

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This is the era of fetches and multi color decks. I think the R/b/g version is the best, but thats just my opinion. The time for Rishardan Port has also ended.

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I disagree with the Port assessment, as I stil win a ridiculous amount of games from Port alone, but in three-color builds I agree it needs to go. Stability in the manabase is important, and basic Mountains are pretty tech.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I disagree with the Port assessment, as I stil win a ridiculous amount of games from Port alone, but in three-color builds I agree it needs to go. Stability in the manabase is important, and basic Mountains are pretty tech.

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I think Port still has a place in the deck regardless of whether the build is mono-, two-, or three-color. Even the with 8 colorless lands, a three-color manabase is still pretty stable. I also haven't found it to be that important to fetch basic Mountains... the only times that basic Mountains are truly relevant is the mirror, a matchup which is increasingly uncommon. No other deck that's running Wasteland can capitalize on its effect as well as Goblins can.

To stabilize the manabase, I'd be more inclined to run a 23rd land than to cut either Ports or colors.

I ran ports in my RGB deck for a while and more often than not, I ended up with too much colourless mana and no, or too little coloured mana, so I decided to cut them entirely.
I don't know, it just seems to hurt you more often than help. I can see them being played in RB or mono-red though, but in my humble opinion they shouldn't be in a 3-colour deck, at least not if you're also running a set of wasteland (which you should be doing anyway).

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

The answer is Yes. I used to play mono-red back in 2005 when I went to GP: Philly. I played all 8 fetchlands with a mana base of 23 lands.

The fetchlands are very important in order to draw threats by thinning the deck. It may not seem like a big deal, but the more you playtest the more you will see how of a big deal it is. It also improves ringleader. When you hit 4 mana which is optimal in goblins, you don't want to see any more land, but rather threats.

I think fetchlands are always necessary, it doesn't matter what version of goblins you are running.

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Yeah, as Tacosnape said that was 2005, now is 2008. Then the only non basic hate was the wastelands in the goblins deck, now you have to fight against wastelands in goblins, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh,aggro loam,dreadstill,landstill,... stifles in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, dreadstill and landstill(very commons in my area) and blood moon from dragon stompy. As you can see, with a mono color base you ignore the wastelands and blood moon, and without the fetches you are inmune to stifle (that, in other hand, are played in hard match ups).

For the issue of deck thinning, 2 points:
1.- It's overrated: you have to see 2-3 fetchlands early to really change the land density in your deck, loosing 2-3 lifes in the process (a very bad thing). And you cannot crack a fetchland after a ringleader or you'll come back to the beggining density.

2.- It's totaly unneeded: You say that 4 lands is all you need. That's totaly wrong. Don't you play SGC? Against dazes, won't wait you until the 5th land to play your ringleaders in a large number of situtations? Against wastelands and ports, you need 5 lands to play the ringleades, and 6 for the SGC...

In the tests I made, only 1-2 of 50 matches I find myself with lands and anything to do with them. This deck is very very mana hungry

Note that I have the fetchalnds and the duals, is not a budget issue. I've tested the three versions (RB, RBG and Mono Red) and I think that the consistency of the mono red is worth its weaker sideboard (more knowing that nowadays people don't play dedicated goblin hate in their SB, and any version is as weak as monored to pyroclasm...)

About Piroclasm, the black splash does have an upside against it, called Mad Auntid, that can regen herself, saving other 2 thoughness (3 with her) creatures.

Regarding the mana issue, I am usually hapy to draw a land. Creatures come to you by Matron, Ringleader. And with Gempalm, you have 3-4 more draw spells in your deck.

I think fetch, for just thinning, is bad. Risking a stifle, and paying lots of life per game, is not a good deal, specially when you do it afeter a Ringleader, that puts lands in the botom of your library, and you risk that they will come up again. In a splash, of course, they're indespensable.

I went up to 24 land after the thread about few manasources in the Format discussion. It has been treating me well as now I can actually afford to use my Ports and Wasteland and not rely so heavily on Vial and Lackey to use my cards. I can see mono R perhaps using one land less, but still I think it's a good thing to have land this allows me to actually outplay my opponent.

I actually cut Mad Auntie because it doesn't help against Clasm. Auntie dies to Clasm and then your other Goblins die too. Nobody plays Plague anymore so that's not a problem either. And let's get real, when are you ever going to Matron for it? Wouldn't you rather have Ringleader post Clasm? If you are anticipating on Clasm, just fetch out Ringleader and keep some Goblins in your hand. The black splash is basically there for just Warren Weirding, that card is insane and you need it against Goyf, you can't afford to wait out a Goyf and watch your opponent gain control over the game again. Earwig Squad, Wort and Therapy/Seize are a nice bonus.

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Originally Posted by Zinch

Yeah, as Tacosnape said that was 2005, now is 2008. Then the only non basic hate was the wastelands in the goblins deck, now you have to fight against wastelands in goblins, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh,aggro loam,dreadstill,landstill,... stifles in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, dreadstill and landstill(very commons in my area) and blood moon from dragon stompy. As you can see, with a mono color base you ignore the wastelands and blood moon, and without the fetches you are inmune to stifle (that, in other hand, are played in hard match ups).

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I am not worried the least bit about facing opposing wastelands or stifles. You play 23 land in the deck with the 2 most powerful cards in the format that cost 1 mana, thats goblin lackey and aether vial. The deck does require a lot of mana, but with those 8 cards you cheat that requirement very well. I can't tell you how many times I would throw a hand back if it didn't have ether a Aether Vial or a Goblin Lackey.

As for Dreadstill, Threshold, and Dragon Stompy those are all good matchups that I would love to face all the time. Aggro Loam and Landstill can be 50/50 at best, Aggro Loam is by far the worse matchup that was cited above.

I guess I might have to right a long article about my 3 color version of the deck and how I believe its superior to all the other builds. You might be able to get away with just playing black in your meta, but in a large scale tournament, it would be very risky with no outs to artifacts or enchantments. Thats why I like the 3 color version.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

About Piroclasm, the black splash does have an upside against it, called Mad Auntid, that can regen herself, saving other 2 thoughness (3 with her) creatures.

Regarding the mana issue, I am usually hapy to draw a land. Creatures come to you by Matron, Ringleader. And with Gempalm, you have 3-4 more draw spells in your deck.

I think fetch, for just thinning, is bad. Risking a stifle, and paying lots of life per game, is not a good deal, specially when you do it afeter a Ringleader, that puts lands in the botom of your library, and you risk that they will come up again. In a splash, of course, they're indespensable.

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Mad Auntie cannot regenerate itself, because it says 'another target goblin'.

Where I agree with you that the 3color build is the strongest, i still think that having ports is very good/necessary in goblins. Cutting an opponent off a color or putting them back a turn is so good alongside a vial and/or lackey

Yeah, but what if running Ports cuts YOU off of colors? I think that would be worse, since the deck is very mana-hungry.

Port functions great when you have an active Vial or an unmolested Lackey. It's mediocre at best when you have neither.

Sorry, I missread Mad Auntie...=/

So, how are we with the lands now?
From what I can see, it goes something like this:

MonoRed:
21-22 lands
4 wastes
4 ports

RB:
22-23 lands
4 wastes
2-3 ports

RBg:
23-24 lands
4 wastes
0-2 ports

I've just started playing RB, running 4 ports, so I'm wondering: does upping the land count doesen't make the coloress mana one smaller issue? Because you go from 21 to 24, while the cmc of the spells doesen't vary, so cutting the ports doesen't look necessary for me. (I know that we need to be able to use different colors, but how many duals are we looking to have on the boards here? How many green spells can we play in one turn?)

This next month I´m planning on buying 4 ports, so I want to reaaly understand this issue, before I make one useless investment, by not using them after all.

After a night of testing I have found that 24 lands is too much. 23 is probably the right number, but I'm not sure. I still like Port a lot, it has won me games against combo by stalling their mana and put Goblins into play through Vial or Lackey. I can understand the concerns about Port, but to me it's a land that taps for mana and it's a huge deal of tempo advantage if you have got an active Lackey or Vial.

I'm curious as I haven't played against Aggro Loam so far, what's the plan against that deck? Preboard I'd guess you just want to get a Wort + Warren Weirding active or you bury them under Goblins (always a good plan). Postboard, you bring in Relic of Progenitus and artifact hate (in my case Tinkerer). The artifact hate is to kill Chalice @ 1 mainly and it doubles against Mox Diamond, it can also wipe out potential Pithing Needles. You really need Relic and Vial in this matchup so having an answer to Chalice @ 1 seems necessary. I'd take out Fanatic x 4, a Siege-Gang and something else for the 6 cards.

Also I would like to note how it's possible to kill Goyf with Relic + Sharpshooter. You do the following, put Relic's tap ability on the stack, put Sharpshooter on the stack then put the sac ability on the stack. What happens is the Goyf gets 0/1 it then gets one dmg from Sharpshooter, they sac a fetch in resp and it gets removed so it will still die. Too bad this doesn't work with Fanatic.

EDIT: About the SB: which card is better against combo; Pyrostatic Pillar, Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize? I would think Pyrostatic Pillar although it may just be too slow. Note that I already play Chalice x4.

Does Chalice come in against any other matchups then combo btw? I have thought about bringing it in against Threshold but I think I'd rather have more Goblins there. I would side in Relic against Threshold, is this correct?

I mentioned Chalice being such a house against all the Zoo decks cropping up, and Burn. Turn 1 Vial, Turn 2 Chalice at 1 just wins.

There's really nothing much that the deck can do against combo. Devoting 8 SB cards makes you weaker to other match-ups. I'd rather just slip in the 4 Chalice SB and pray I don't face those.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

I mentioned Chalice being such a house against all the Zoo decks cropping up, and Burn. Turn 1 Vial, Turn 2 Chalice at 1 just wins.

There's really nothing much that the deck can do against combo. Devoting 8 SB cards makes you weaker to other match-ups. I'd rather just slip in the 4 Chalice SB and pray I don't face those.

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Funny that you say that because that exact senerio just happened to me over MWS.

I think we might be able to do better against combo than just 4xChallice. Maybe thoughtseize, I don't know. Do anyone board in any other cards?

Mantis, Relic is, hands down, the best corolles SB card against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, really. I had 2, now I have 3 in the SB, because it proven itself to be amazing.
Challice should be sided in agaist ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. I really need to test this out more, but i think that, taking 4 fanatics wouldent hurt you very much, and they have way more 1cc spells tha we do. Maybe even setting it for 2 later is doable. we lose piledriver, tinkerer, Warres. They lose Goyf, CB, Daze... i like the idea, but then again, really need to test it more.

I just board in 4 Relic against Threshold I think and if they play with CB/Top, Dreadnought or Factory I'll board in 1 or 2 Tinkerers as well. I'm not sure Chalice is powerful enough to be boarded in against Threshold, it makes your deck less coherent and really lacks synergy with the rest of the deck. I mean if you set Chalice at 1 and you topdeck a Relic afterwards you slap yourself to the head.

Yeah, I'm sure Challice has its downsides, but what I'm tryign to figure is if the downside of Treshhold makes worth playing it (read: Brainstorm, SDT, Ponder, Mongoose, Stifle, STP, Bolt x Vial, Relic).

I've seen versions without Mogg Fanatic and I was just making a list of matchups and my SB plan and found that I took out Fanatic in just about all of the matches. It only shines against Ichorid to be honest and it's pretty good with Sharpshooter, but is that really enough to warrant it's inclusion? I've seen other people doubt it too and just seen two lists that didn't include it. Does smoothing the curve make up for the lack in power?

Err... I'm not playin mogg fanatic's right now also. From what I see, only 1 Ichorid in my meta. Not missing them so far.

Well, this is another reason to run Challice. 1 less card to lose from it at 1.