Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It's gone for quite a while:[/URL]

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2 months is hardly "quite awhile" in terms of the speed at which Legacy decks tend to evolve. Note also that the original problem said, "Assume that the Sideboard for BWish has no limit, and any Sorcery could be used."

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

2 months is hardly "quite awhile" in terms of the speed at which Legacy decks tend to evolve. Note also that the original problem said, "Assume that the Sideboard for BWish has no limit, and any Sorcery could be used."

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Right, basically as the Miracles player, you might have working knowledge of TES but not exact information. Based on the given board state, and a slew of potential options - how do you maximize the chances of you winning in light of seeing a super stacked hand that can combo off.

I've posted some thoughts from the TES perspective in this post. (mtgthesource.com)

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Originally Posted by Koby

Right, basically as the Miracles player, you might have working knowledge of TES but not exact information. Based on the given board state, and a slew of potential options - how do you maximize the chances of you winning in light of seeing a super stacked hand that can combo off.

I've posted some thoughts from the TES perspective in this post. (mtgthesource.com)

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Although this isn't too relevant to the original question, I'm pretty sure that TES is just dead if there is either a 0, 1, 2, or 4 on top for Counterbalance. 1 and 2 are obvious, but 4 means that they can't Diminishing Returns, IGG, or PIF. 0 means that they would have to Dimishing Returns with zero mana floating and unable to cast 0-drops. The ideal line is to force them into Emptying and then just get them. Also, I dislike playing out the EE for 0 because this let's them know that Empty isn't good enough and TES doesn't pack too much discard anyways.

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Originally Posted by Rook1e

Hi guys...

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Hey Rook1e I edited in some thoughts.

Land (23)
2x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas - unusual choice, but seems legit given a considerable showing of S&T.
2x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels - many players who've switched to 3 haven't looked back, though your meta seems like 2 could indeed be the correct number
4x Terminus - given TNN is a thing, I'd make sure too have 2-3 Supreme Verdicts in your 75. I currently go with: 2 Terminus 2 Verdict MD // 1 Verdict, 1 Terminus SB

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (5)
3x Counterbalance
1x Moat - D&T will pack more fliers than usual to race TNN just like the top16 versions at BoM, and Stoneblade has Cliques and Strixs, making Moat a suboptimal MD choice imo. I'd definitely replace it with STP/CB #4
1x Rest in Peace - since you don't seem to predict many graveyard-based decks, I'd suggest bin this and replace it with EE, which will shine against TNN & DnT

Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (3)
3x Vendilion Clique - 3 Cliques seem legit due to the rise of Combo.

Sideboard (15)
1x Aura of Silence - you already have 2 Wear/Tear and 1WW can be tough to achieve against D&T. I reckon you want to bring that in against SnT and Combo as well, but I'm sure cheaper choices that are just as valuable (Flusterstorm, etc.)
1x Engineered Explosives - if you rock one in the MD you can cut your SB EE, and replace it with more dedicated hate
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mountain
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
2x Sulfur Elemental - while this guy is cute, I'd definitely go with Terminus #3/4 & Supreme Verdict #2/3 for those slots.
1x Venser, Shaper Savant - I don't really like this guy - if you're looking for S&T hate, Humility seems just better
2x Wear / Tear

peace,
j

I'm not convinced that fighting over TNN is smart if you can easily race the guy and his potential Equipment with 2 Angels

we have to keep a way to deal with equipment way more than before.

we have white for that.. shouldn't be a problem

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Originally Posted by Poron

we have to keep a way to deal with equipment way more than before.
we have white for that.. shouldn't be a problem

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Good point. 2 Wear/Tear 1-2 Needle, 1-2 EE (MD) should do the trick though, no?
Then again EE is not considered to be part of the core by many.
They've been working great for me ever since my times as a Landstiller. :cool:

don't know wear/tear.. I still think Deluge and Thief are sexy.

Thief kills Griselbrand / Omnishow matchup, while putting up a decent clock either

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Originally Posted by Poron

don't know wear/tear.. I still think Deluge and Thief are sexy.
Thief kills Griselbrand / Omnishow matchup, while putting up a decent clock either

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imo Thief has been discarded even by StoneBlade due to lack of applications/CMC4.
Ethersworn Canonist does similar things and more at half the cost, plus in-colour.

@ Deluge:
Someone wise said that 1 mana less (-> Supreme Verdict) does not justify the life loss in a hardcore control deck that wins on 1-5 life more often than not AND has access to Legacy's best sweepers.
Also, REB handles TNN nicely too.

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Originally Posted by Rook1e

Hi guys.

I'm going to a 100+ tournament this sunday. I'm expecting a the following strategies to make up most of the meta:

D&T, Stoneblade (TNN Variants) ANT and SnT

This is my current list and what i thought could be a decent sb. But wanted to get some inputs from you guys :D

Land (23)
2x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
2x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels
4x Terminus

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (5)
3x Counterbalance
1x Moat
1x Rest in Peace

Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (3)
3x Vendilion Clique

Sideboard (15)
1x Aura of Silence
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mountain
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
2x Wear / Tear

I'm looking forward to hearing from you all

/Rook

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I would cut the main deck Rest in Peace and put in a main deck humility. I would also cut the red, add 2 basics in place of the volcanics. In the sideboard replace 2 wear/tear with disenchant, REB/Pyro/Sulfur with 2 swan song and 3 meddling mages.

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Originally Posted by bryanzoll

I would cut the main deck Rest in Peace and put in a main deck humility. I would also cut the red, add 2 basics in place of the volcanics. In the sideboard replace 2 wear/tear with disenchant, REB/Pyro/Sulfur with 2 swan song and 3 meddling mages.

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Not trying act like a mod, but suggesting unusual choices such as MD Humility and SB MM should be backed by answers to "why?".

MM isn't that weird.

I'd only main Humility if I was facing loads of S/T or other stuff Humility is good against, and I was playing a hard RiP Helm variant. As in only playing a single Entreat and double Tutor with Moat or some other Enchantress-like build.

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Originally Posted by Rook1e

Hi guys.

I'm going to a 100+ tournament this sunday. I'm expecting a the following strategies to make up most of the meta:

D&T, Stoneblade (TNN Variants) ANT and SnT

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I'd probably cut the MD RIP and Elspeth for the 4th CB and 4th Swords. You can afford to move the Moat to the SB if you wanted the 3rd Entreat MD, but it's really not that bad MD. In the SB Aura of Silence, Mountain, and at least the second Sulfur Elemental are all pretty weak in my opinion. You should try to fit in a Supreme Verdict and I still like Pyroclasm for Death and Taxes and Elves. An Enlightened Tutor in the SB can be nice to increase the density of your RIPs, Moat, and Ethersworn.

What are people's thoughts on running Explosives over Disenchant or Wear/Tear? I suppose you can run multiple copies of both, but I was running a 1/1 split and recently made them both Explosives. The Wear/Tear first became a Disenchant when I realized that it was basically Shatter 90% of the time which required I fetch the worst land in the deck. Not too long after, a second Explosives just seemed stronger against Stoneforge decks, anyhow...and Delver, and Death & Taxes. I know Joe is already running a 2/2 split, so I wouldn't expect any more Explosives than that, but perhaps some people aren't so heavy on non-creature permanent hate?

Alright guys, I'm gonna go there. TNN - yep, you heard me right.. The idea of giving this blue idiot a miraculous spin has been lurking in the back of my mind for a while now and was tenaciously discarded - until today.
I'm going to try to keep this short just so that the TNN haters don't have to puke all over their screens and keyboards more than twice.

Feels like a dejavu, doesn't it? Some of you might recall the Tarmo hype back in the day when everyone started implementing Lhurgoyfs into any kind of archetypes - heck even Goblins and Landstill! My initial inspiration to try this rather dumb approach dates back a little further though, namely 15 years to a dude from Urza's Saga.

Any educated blue Control player probably was reminded of Morphling when TNN got spoiled. But before I briefly dip into a comparison, let me assure you that I'm aware that times have changed and there are some actual reasons Morphling is not being played anymore. Anywho, let's list some specs.

Mr. M.	Mr. N.
CMC 5 sort of flying semi-shroud can cause up to 5 dmg / turn blocks dudes up to 4 power and lives to tell the tale	CMC 3 unblockable shroud will cause at least 3 dmg / turn blocks a 20/20 KotR like a champ

Alright cool, so TNN wins this comparison handily, but does that really warrant testing in Miracles.dec, which never gave a damn about Mr. M in the first place? And even if so, what among the ultra tight 75 could ever be cut for TNN's sake?
Well there's 1 spell that's an obvious candidate: EtA. And while I'm aware that those heavenly tokens have become a vital part of the core, both spells fulfill similar roles - so let's compare them real quick:

EtA	Mr. N.
at least CMC 3 including WW requires setup aka Top but can be cast at instant speed terrible earlygame OK midgame superb lategame Spell Piercable flying --------------------- can end the game in one turn	max. CMC 3 (on-colour) ------------------- ------------------- OK earlygame good midgame OK lategame -------------------- unblockable, shroud pitchable to FoW will end the game in a grindier way

I have to admit TNN does not win that comparison really, but does he lose? Maybe - only testing will tell. This is the list that I'm going to give a spin tonight:

4 BS
4 FoW
4 CB
4 Top
4 Jace
4 STP
2 Terminus
2 Supreme Verdict
2 CS
3 TNN
1 Vendilion Clique
1 EtA
1 EE
[37]

23 awesome mana sources

SB:
3 RiP
3 REB
2 Canonist
2 Wear/Tear
2 Pithing Needle
2 Terminus
1 meta slot

Thanks for your patience. I'll let you know about my testing stuff soon.
Now let the bashing begin :)

Carsten Kotter came up at the BoM with that idea just to use TNN as a wall till you can drop a bunch of Angels and just win. The list in question however had the full set of EtA and no more Terminus

The hard part is not jamming TNN in, the hard part is what to take out. I wouldn't touch any removals. Looks like the only spot is to compete against Clique spot. Before we debate TNN vs Clique, the use of that creature slot is vastly different in Rip-Helm and Legend-Angel builds.

If the Rip-Helm build only has 1 or 2 Clique, I can see why people would give TNN a shot. However, both Clique and TNN are vulnerable to Liliana, and lots of people underestimate Flash. I don't see TNN in Legend-Angel builds at this point in time.

I'm not playing it when I could have Flash / Flying instead. I don't think it's better than Clique. EtA can end the game in one turn, and seeing as we are basically sweepers and counterspells.dek, being Instant Speed and not having to lose value when you Terminus the board because it isn't hitting for 16 a turn and so isn't getting you there is quite important.

There's basically never a point where I want TNN in my deck whilst I'm playing Terminus and Supreme Verdict. If I was playing Counter Top + Stoneforge, with Jace Battserksull, and Entreat as win conditions, I'd look into it. I quite like the idea, but seeing as I simply don't plan on getting any TNN's any time soon and I've still not actually got all of my cards I need for Paris in my current built, I'm going to stick with a more traditional build.

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

... I need for Paris in my current built, I'm going to stick with a more traditional build.

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I've never actually been to a foreign tournament, but since my sister lives in Paris, I'm really thinking about that one. Is there likely to be any sort of language barrier type problem?

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I've never actually been to a foreign tournament, but since my sister lives in Paris, I'm really thinking about that one. Is there likely to be any sort of language barrier type problem?

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Sure is there one if you go to the supermarket or even the local Information-Center, but if you move along the typical Tourist-paths, you'll sure survive with english. At the tournament itself, almost everyone speaks englisch or at least "Magic": everyone knows what "bounce", "attack", etc. means even if they otherwise don't speak a single word of englisch. Judges will assist if there are language problems and even translate at your table if really needed. Never had any issues concerning the Language there

Most of the time, when you cast entreat you put no less than 2 angels on the Battlefield.
This way you finish effectively the game in 1-3 turns after you established control.
You run other Snapcaster/Clique and sometimes they acts as finishers but your ideal scenario G1 is Jace kill or EtA kill.

TNN is a more grindy card and it isn't a finisher in miracles. It takes lots of turns for him to kill your opponent, which means he can be back in the game with the extra turns given.

Also another reason to avoid running TNN MB is you want to be able to cast a Terminus and not worry about what is on the table, which means you don't want to remove your own TNN.

I will definitely try 2 TNN SB to act as a blocking creature - Batterskull/Goyf, but in no way it will act as a consistent finisher.

I might be wrong.

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Originally Posted by klaus

Alright guys, I'm gonna go there. TNN - yep, you heard me right.. The idea of giving this blue idiot a miraculous spin has been lurking in the back of my mind for a while now and was tenaciously discarded - until today.
I'm going to try to keep this short just so that the TNN haters don't have to puke all over their screens and keyboards more than twice.

Feels like a dejavu, doesn't it? Some of you might recall the Tarmo hype back in the day when everyone started implementing Lhurgoyfs into any kind of archetypes - heck even Goblins and Landstill! My initial inspiration to try this rather dumb approach dates back a little further though, namely 15 years to a dude from Urza's Saga.

Any educated blue Control player probably was reminded of Morphling when TNN got spoiled. But before I briefly dip into a comparison, let me assure you that I'm aware that times have changed and there are some actual reasons Morphling is not being played anymore. Anywho, let's list some specs.

Mr. M.	Mr. N.
CMC 5 sort of flying semi-shroud can cause up to 5 dmg / turn blocks dudes up to 4 power and lives to tell the tale	CMC 3 unblockable shroud will cause at least 3 dmg / turn blocks a 20/20 KotR like a champ

Alright cool, so TNN wins this comparison handily, but does that really warrant testing in Miracles.dec, which never gave a damn about Mr. M in the first place? And even if so, what among the ultra tight 75 could ever be cut for TNN's sake?
Well there's 1 spell that's an obvious candidate: EtA. And while I'm aware that those heavenly tokens have become a vital part of the core, both spells fulfill similar roles - so let's compare them real quick:

EtA	Mr. N.
at least CMC 3 including WW requires setup aka Top but can be cast at instant speed terrible earlygame OK midgame superb lategame Spell Piercable flying --------------------- can end the game in one turn	max. CMC 3 (on-colour) ------------------- ------------------- OK earlygame good midgame OK lategame -------------------- unblockable, shroud pitchable to FoW will end the game in a grindier way

I have to admit TNN does not win that comparison really, but does he lose? Maybe - only testing will tell. This is the list that I'm going to give a spin tonight:

4 BS
4 FoW
4 CB
4 Top
4 Jace
4 STP
2 Terminus
2 Supreme Verdict
2 CS
3 TNN
1 Vendilion Clique
1 EtA
1 EE
[37]

23 awesome mana sources

SB:
3 RiP
3 REB
2 Canonist
2 Wear/Tear
2 Pithing Needle
2 Terminus
1 meta slot

Thanks for your patience. I'll let you know about my testing stuff soon.
Now let the bashing begin :)

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I've never actually been to a foreign tournament, but since my sister lives in Paris, I'm really thinking about that one. Is there likely to be any sort of language barrier type problem?

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You'll be fine. Europe is a cool place, and city centres are easy enough to navigate.

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Originally Posted by warai

Most of the time, when you cast entreat you put no less than 2 angels on the Battlefield.
This way you finish effectively the game in 1-3 turns after you established control.
You run other Snapcaster/Clique and sometimes they acts as finishers but your ideal scenario G1 is Jace kill or EtA kill.

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All of the above is correct. The advantage TNN has over EtA though is that he comes down and has an impact on the board position much earlier, while not being susceptible to Pierce, which is actually a major plus given the future meta, featuring more and more blue tempo strategies.

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Originally Posted by warai

Also another reason to avoid running TNN MB is you want to be able to cast a Terminus and not worry about what is on the table, which means you don't want to remove your own TNN.

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That's actually an argument in favor of TNN: good players won't overextend against Miracles, and hold back creatures to follow up on a sweeper. However TNN forces them to do exactly that, which completely mitigates the point of card disadvantage.

overall the only counters that see actual play are Pierce, Daze and FoW (+ random Counterspell)

if you can play around Daze, you only fear FoW (and we pack our 4 too...)

EtA is both mana intensive and Spell Pierceable

You normally cast EtA with counter backup or established board control.
It doesn't matter if it is mana intensive on a deck with so much filtering. It is rare for you to miss a land drop.

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Originally Posted by Poron

overall the only counters that see actual play are Pierce, Daze and FoW (+ random Counterspell)

if you can play around Daze, you only fear FoW (and we pack our 4 too...)

EtA is both mana intensive and Spell Pierceable

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Originally Posted by warai

You normally cast EtA with counter backup or established board control.
It doesn't matter if it is mana intensive on a deck with so much filtering. It is rare for you to miss a land drop.

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So let's just add Emrakul, since CMC does not matter, cause we hardly ever miss a land drop.
Kidding aside, irl you will have to wait forever to able to safely cast EtA against the increasing amount of decks packing Pierce/Daze, unless you're desperate and it's your only out.
That being said, I'm hesitant to push this idea further before being able to present thorough test results. All I was trying to get across atm, is that it looks like it could be cool.

another thing is that decks that follow mana denial strategy are increasing in amount.
DnT is always more common, RUG and URW packs 4 Wasteland and often Stifle too...

against those decks it might be safe to side out EtA for more Clique / TNN / SnapMage

Replacing Clique or Entreat with True Name nemesis will probably make the deck a lot weaker to any Liliana deck.

Tapping out to play it makes you just lose to a Liliana.

When Liliana is ticking up, if you find an entreat (she's dead) or a Clique (you have a chance to flash it in and hit her loyalty).
True Name Nemesis will only ever buy you 2 loyalty as he will die instantly.

unless it is played alongside Clique, unless you side it in when you're not against decks which might play Liliana and Toxic Deluge or Golgari Charm...

If you're not using it against any midrange bgx deck what is this card for? delver decks? goblins? merfolk?
Besides RUG, they can all get past a single blocker (that can't block flying) easily.

don't know. It kills Mongoose and chump blocks Tarmogoyf next turn.

ah yes, 4 StP are a thing.

The card is a poor excuse for a Moat as far as I can tell. I just don't think it does anything. It is simply never better than a Clique or Venser as far as I can tell, and they are not on the top of everyone's lists.

against some deck, in my opinion, it can make the difference. Anyway, just testing will tell..

Has anyone tried out Runed Halo as a versatile and quick answer to TNN? As a one-of in the board, it can come in versus quite a few matchups.

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Originally Posted by mith

Has anyone tried out Runed Halo as a versatile and quick answer to TNN? As a one-of in the board, it can come in versus quite a few matchups.

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Just play a Moat.

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Originally Posted by Poron

don't know. It kills Mongoose and chump blocks Tarmogoyf next turn.

ah yes, 4 StP are a thing.

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This is a good point. It could be a Sulfur Elemental style card that can come in against "fair" decks. Running it maindeck sounds weak, since it would be dead cards 9-12 against Combo decks (I know it attacks for damage, but without Cliques ETB trigger, it's just a 3/1).

It's definitely weaker than Moat, but Moat is $300 and can be Spell Pierce'd.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

This is a good point. It could be a Sulfur Elemental style card that can come in against "fair" decks. Running it maindeck sounds weak, since it would be dead cards 9-12 against Combo decks (I know it attacks for damage, but without Cliques ETB trigger, it's just a 3/1)..

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This is true, but can also be a little deceptive. If True-Name Nemesis is replacing non-blue cards, then the fact that TNN is blue is actually useful against combo, because you can save all your other blue cards (which are relevant against combo!) to actually cast and not pitch to force of will. Not really a strong argument either way for the card, but I think it's worth noting because running cards which can handle creatures and are blue themselves (I've been using Strix) really does give a noticeable amount of more flexibility when casting force of will, compared to running things that aren't blue in its place.

I don't really think TNN is great for strictly Miracles, but I've really been considering an esperblade/miracles hybrid lately, taking my favorite parts from both of the decks. I don't really get to play much, so I won't really be able to test, but I would consider something like:

//16 Win-cons
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//21 Spells
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares

//23 Land
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
6 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas/Other

Which looks pretty powerful to me. I think something like this would be a bit more appropriate if you want a Miracle-type build with TNN, since I think he really compliments a SFM-approach more than the standard miracles list. Even without running TNN, and running some other blue utility creature, I still really like the idea of a list like this.

Compared to traditional miracles you cut some of your hard answers (Terminus, Counterspell, etc.) for some soft answers (Batterskull, TNN, strix) which will double as your win-conditions. Overall you have a much higher threat density, but all of your threats here will help you defensively too. Another thing that I really like about this list is 4 Entreats, because I believe that it's one of the most powerful cards we can run. Here, 4 Entreat makes sense compared to traditional Miracle lists, because you only have 4 miracles to worry about ever clogging your draws. Plus, there are a lot of creature removal targets, so you don't really feel too bad about one of a few creatures in your list getting killed and there's not really a question of generating virtual card advantage by not running (m)any creatures. Where this is particularly relevant in my opinion is in making mini-entreats. It's much safer with all your other cards, so you can make some instant speed angels to try and create advantage/board impact much sooner than you might have felt comfortable with otherwise.

Although this is perhaps a bit far from a miracles list, such and idea really interests me. I haven't tested a list like this, but if I were to have an upcoming tournament, I would probably test and (assuming pretty good testing) play a list somewhat close to what I put above.

I may look into playing something UWR-esque that plays Countertop and stuff like Thunderous Wrath, and possibly Bonfires. More of an aggressive Miracles strategy than we're used to.

But of course it's probably terrible.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

This is a good point. It could be a Sulfur Elemental style card that can come in against "fair" decks. Running it maindeck sounds weak, since it would be dead cards 9-12 against Combo decks (I know it attacks for damage, but without Cliques ETB trigger, it's just a 3/1).

It's definitely weaker than Moat, but Moat is $300 and can be Spell Pierce'd.

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this.

it can be spell pierced. and with Daze and Fow that's the only counter I actually see every day.

Daze is easy to play around and FoW can be Pierced/etc. in many matchups, high cc non creature cards, are very weak.

Against RUG or URW (4 Wasteland, 4 Stifle, 4 Daze 3-4 Pierce) Jace and Moat are almost helpless... as is EtA. To have a better matchup we should go TNN in those matchup (imho)

Sulfur Elemental is another good piece against DnT for the same reason.

Who the hell is resolving 1CC Instants when we're actually trying to cast our Entreats? As far as I was aware Entreat was mostly being used as a finisher. We're not tapping out at 5 for it, we're making 4 Angels and leaving up additional mana for countermagic and things.

Unless that's just me. I mean walk into Spell Pierces if you want but I'm going to play real Magic.

TNN does almost nothong against UWR except race. 10 out of their 11 threats cannot be blocked by it, so I'm not sure what it's doing there. Seems okay against RUG Delver, I'll give you that, though. There we just have to worry about Delverd once we can actually resolve a TNN.