Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
Sounds like you'd get more free wine if you ran a 3rd copy. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
Sounds like you'd get more free wine if you ran a 3rd copy. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I believe it's because RW runs more lotus petal's which turns on welder quite quickly, while mono red usually runs a full set of simian.Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
Also I think R/W incurs more card disadvantage and welder can usually get that advantage back. Mono R isn't the same and there the welder is a casual misers copy.
This is a good point. RW also tends to run a Ethersworn main (or used to) so that ups the artifact count some.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfstorm
Using a stock shortcake list what's the general sideboard plan vs miracles?
I'll be playing Shortcake (71/75 of the Kap'ns list) at GP Seattle and wanted to reach out for advice in the Goblins match up. Not the most common match up, but I can't figure it out. Any tips?
Don't name blue, get bridge out, kill them faster than they kill you.
Ideal hands are something that interacts with their boad turn one and on. Moons aren't bad. You can't one for one them, play just like elves match up and play the control in the matchup. And try and kill them before they kill you.
Thanks! That makes a lot of sense. Very helpful!
Just kill moderately quickly and you're fine. I believe the matchup is pretty in Gobs favour (biased opinion) but the deck is so horrid that you're very unlikely to run into it.
I would be more worried about burn than goblins. Anyone else worried about burn with the current shortcake sb? I'm playing 1 cop: red in the sb.
There's only so much you can do for the matchup. It's bad no matter what way you look at it really. I've tried everything from warmth to leyline of sanctity and settled on circle of protection red. Copr I feel is the best tool for them as there are still very few burn decks running destructive revelry. Almost all still run smash to smithereens.Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanS2k
I will always run 1 Sphere of Law in my sb, if you resolve that thing turn 2 to 3 they're gonna have a hard time winning.
About Welder, it is basically the single most powerful card in the deck. You need to have certain deck constraints to take advantage of it but in a vacuum the card is the single strongest. That being said the number in a deck is variable. Depending on the number, the deck changes drastically in composition. Jack as continued to do well with 3 and ups teh artifacts in his deck to make good use of him. Every deck should have at least one if for no other reason than we use artifacts to win, and it turns Grindstone on as a psuedo draw spell. That is the basic reasons to have the card. But its applications are incredible to adding reach, flexibility and card advantage to the deck. It helps to minimize some of the strongest cards(Counterbalance, Terminus, and counterspells) in the format. Most players will immediately waste a removal spell on him, as they should, which saves your objectively more important creatures from said spell. To do over all his uses would be exhaustive and a waste of time because we would all miss so many of them. Thinking of him vs Spellskite is the complete wrong way to asses the card to be honest. Spellskite excels against burn and abrupt decay and some other fringe strategies that you should not be worried about. The key of that statement is that you should not worry about burn. It is a shitty deck that occasionally pops up. I will always say just play the odds that you don't see it at the top tables rather than devoting valuable deck space to a shitty deck. It is more important to sure up Miracles, BUG, RUG, and Show and Tell variants than ever worring about Burn. When you look at that list Goblin Welder is always better than Spellskite. And it isn't even close. Now the number in the deck is more difficult, although I will say mono red should probably start at 3 and go from there, whcih brings me to my next point about the difference between monored and shortcake.
Monored has the possibility of increase in consistency in the sense that its mana base is slightly more solid in a wasteland infested land. Its minimal but real. However the mana consistency is minimal. It is slower and less consistent with the combo and draws due to losing the tutor effect. This is a significant difference. The ability to have an instant speed tutor both increases your speed and consistency which is important to consider when choosing the deck construction. But the ability to have the tutor effect, while being card disadvantage is acceptable, due to the ability to better fight hate and other strategies. This goes without saying that fighting graveyard strategies with 6-7 dedicated cards in the 75 seems like a losing proposition once small sample size is removed. Without this consistency, I think the monored decks need the ability of the Welder more in general to give them the reach they otherwise dont have. Without taking at length about the advantage of white, monored needs to work hard to overcome the short comings of not being able to play game changes like Canonist and RiP.
I don't play much paper magic anymore that doesn't include power, but teh basic principles of the deck have not changed in the past 5 years with the deck. That is the important thing to remember. The cantrip cartel is real though and stronger now than it was before. It is because of that you need to increase consistency as their draws continue to be more and more consistent. Keep this in mind along with Blood Moon gaining value and the right number in the 75 is probably 6 or more at this time. And before anyone says anything, no it is perfectly fine running 4-5 white cards in a deck with 6 plus moon effects. If the moon is winning the dead cards in hand mean nothing.
Seth
Reanimator hasn't been netting me results lately, keep going 2-2 at the local tournaments. I saw that I still have painter ready so next week I'm going to use it at the 4 rounder. Currently my list looks like:
Creatures (15)
2 Goblin Welder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Painter's Servant
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
Spells (26)
3 Lotus Petal
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands (19)
1 Great Furnace
1 Plains
2 Plateau
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Rest in Peace
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Assemble the Legion
CoP Red I tried using for some reason it doesn't get the job done against burn, leyline does double duty against all the discard showing up as well. This list was made before Mentor was big, I was thinking instead of Thorn I'd switch to a Trinisphere. I think Imperial Painter is the strongest of the Blood Moon decks, though I haven't played Mono-R sneak.
Again, I would agree that welder is an important card in the deck as well. And in general, you can't argue any of the reasons to play welder. Having said that. I would disagree that welder is a better card than spellskite in MUs like RUG and BUG. I would actually argue that, of all the decks you listed, the only deck where welder has a clear advantage is show and tell. And even there welder's benefit is negligible. Welder's biggest advantage is that it provides redundancy against counter magic. However, when your pieces are on the board, I would much rather have spellskite protect my combo in the RUG strategy because he takes 2 removal spells to get rid of, turns on the second you play him, and blocks mongoose all day. He also absorbs jitte counters that kill welder immediately. He redirects pump spells in the infect MU that is huge. He eats bolts and survives in any red MU. He can redirect disenchant effects to protect your moons. He saves your non-artifact creatures. He protects your permanents against bounce (such as in the STORM MU and Jace).Quote:
Originally Posted by sroncor1
Again, welder is also very good. But spellskite is not nearly as narrow as you are suggesting. After all, given the fact that a person playing with one of the best results in history with this deck thinks spellskite is good enough to play in his main should suggest that maybe it's an okay card.
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I find it hard to beleive that CoP Red couldn't get the job done against burn, sure you need mana, but you should be good slow rolling your plays and drawing for a solid number of turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuke is Good
I feel like Leyline is actually pretty bad against both Burn and Discard, because it cost 4 mana. It's way to late to the party against discard decks, unless it's in your opening hand... same on burn. It's great if you've got it in your opening hand, but the 2-4th copies are pretty bad and dilute the deck. It's also a lot of Sideboard slots.
You could just run Spirtual Focus, which should give discard decks a hard time... couple this with CoP:Red and instead of taking 4 sideboard slots your taking 2...
Going to Seattle. My SB looks like this:
1x Duergar hedge-mage
1x Ethersworn canonist
1x Spellskite
1x Koth of the Hammer
1x Enlightened tutor
1x Cop: red
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Trinisphere
1x Thorn of amethyst
1x Rest in Peace
1x Tormod's crypt
4x Firebolt
Everything as a one-of, except for the firebolts. Any comments or suggestions are welcomed.
Comments, take them or leave them.Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanS2k
You can likely cut a Firebolt.
You should consider if Ethersworn Cannonist is as strong as it was during Omnishow times. Should we be on Containment Priest now that Sneak and Show is bigger? (Also has game agaisnt GSZ decks)
Spellskite in the board? I don't know...
Miracles are still pretty good, do you want Assemble the Legion?
I know we hate losing to burn, but CoP:Red is a card that we should likely live without, instead spending a Sideboard slot on another matchup.
I've liked firebolt in the past but nowadays I reconsider it because it is a 4RR two for one. In matchups where we need to burn a creature down, sweepers are much better than Firebolt. I'm not hating on the card, you'd do just fine with it. But consider Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives, Pyroclasm, Pyrokinesis, Slice and Dice, Volcanic Fallout (same camp as SLice and dice, uncounterable sweeper) Sudden Demise. We can't one for one or two for one and expect to come out on top. Our removal has too reset the board in our favor, breaking even isn't enough most of the time. Just something to consider before making your choice.
Forgot to mention that my MD is the same as Jack's list.
Thanks for your feedback. With ethersworn canonist, I think it's mainly against storm decks now along with trinisphere and thorn. Figured my 3 bridges in my 75 and 7 red blast effects, 1 revoker be good enough for Sneak and Show. Spellskite, good against burn, infect, maybe certain types of delver variance? I agree with cop: red, it's the most iffy card from my sb but I'm just going with my gut. If I take that out, I was thinking adding another Koth. Is Assemble the Legion more easily for miracles deck to answer? Since I figured they would naturally bring in wear//tear against us.
So, I have an opinion on Firebolt that some people may disagree with, and that's fine. I get that it has flashback, which is a nice touch. But in a situation where you're flashing it back for five mana (assuming it doesn't get eaten by Deathrite Shaman first), I really think you should be in position to try to win the game or lock an opponent out. Moon effects can slow the deck some inadvertently when Sol-lands are only tapping for a single red. I just see more overall usefulness in Forked Bolt against the decks where Firebolt has applicability - in the current meta. You're still getting the two-for-one early on without having to expend five mana mid game on a Shock.Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanS2k
The goal of these cards should be to slow the opponent down early enough so you can stabilize and combo out, and most aggressive builds right now in Legacy use the first two to three turns to establish board presence. Forked Bolt just seems so much better in the first few turns where the game is in its most critical stages. At EE3, I was wishing I had Forked Bolt over Lightning Bolt a majority of the time, because in the times where a planeswalker like Liliana is ticked down to sacrifice a creature, I can always finish her off with Forked Bolt just as well. Jace dies to Blast effects, so I wasn't even worried about that. There weren't any three-toughness creatures I could locate where Bolt would have mattered - the vast majority were stuck at one or two toughness, having me clamoring for the two for one early on - punishing shaky keeps.
Infect was another match-up that, although I won, Forked Bolt would have shined against. Noble Hierarch is a card that is deceivingly seeing more play. Being able to wipe that out in addition to other mana creatures like Elves and the like not only gives you inherent card advantage without the extra investment, but also keeps opponents pinned under Blood Moon early on. I get that both have their own distinct utility, it's just that the decks where I'd bring Firebolt in against I would much rather have a turn one or two Forked Bolt to clear the board and leave available resources up to represent Blast, Top mana or the win in the mid game.
My 2 cents:Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanS2k
I'm basically in agreement with all the other advice already given. I wouldn't play CoP:Red, as a: you will never progress your board because you have to leave mana open every turn, and b: burn decks often play pithing needle, which they will probably bring in to shut off your combo. If you wanted to play one card that could have game against burn, I would probably still play Sphere of Law. It's amazing against burn, and also has game against goblins, belcher (who win more often with Empty the Warrens) and any young pyromancer deck. It is a little slower to get down. But once it's on the board you will be in good shape.
As for spellskite, I am definitely a fan of the card. I just would never consider it a SB card. I guess that also works if you are playing against decks where you really want more protection or against infect.
I agree with others above that firebolt could be upgraded. But this is just a matter of personal preference more than anything. I would definitely at least split them with another card that can clear the board better, as mentioned above.
I still really like canonist and actually still play it in the main, as it's so good against STORM, elves, and show and tell decks, all of which are very popular right now. Having said that, I do take it out a lot in other MUs. I just think that you have to have at least one really good main deck card against STORM, and I like canonist over revoker right now. The rest seems fine, although I also agree that either assemble the legion or another planeswalker would probably be good to bring in against Miracles and such. I've actually decided to go with 2 Koth, as I am on the beatdown plan against Eldrazi decks at this point, and Koth hits a lot harder and faster than assemble. You are also correct in that enchantment removal is much more readily available in Miracles than Koth removal, although just be wary of monks coming at you.
I haven't seen any discussion on the 4th place list from the BIGMAGIC tournament in Japan. Its Mono-Red with a Goblin Rabblemaster and 2 Dead//Gone. What are peoples though on this list?
http://www.bigmagic.net/bmo05/legacy/03.html
Rablemaster is good for a beatdown, they work well in stompy decks. Dead//gone is another useful removal but it doesn't generate card advantage. I'd much rather have a ratchet bomb or sudden demise or slice and dice in that slot. Looks like he tuned his list well to that meta
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What do you guys think about Sudden Shock instead of Firebolt?
It's very good versus infect/miracles/pyromancer/elves/D&T. So if that's where you were bringing in firebolt it's a fine substitution and in some cases better.
It's what I've been using and I might never look back. It's been very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by lilevo
I don't know about everyone else but I keep getting painter's servant surgically extracted. I wouldn't mind trying that rabblemaster, I definitely think we need some good threats post board with so much shardless around (the deck that keeps surgical-ing me)
Since moon is good, why not stick to koth?
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I love koth but the reason I see to try rabblemaster is that he can be found with recruiter whereas there's really not a good way to find koth. I imagine koth is better but rabble could be okay...Just realized rabbles makes welder attack. all of a sudden I hate it.
I don't like the idea of Rabblemaster messing with Welder
Getting a Moon or Magus into play is super critical for the Shardless matchup.... Like it really doesn't matter if they take your painters if they can't cast any more spells...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
I also don't know about Rabblemaster...There are better aggressive creatures.
I guess this is up to debate since if there were better aggressive creatures, they would have seen play. The deck has sort of always been lacking an efficient beater that could present a serious clock. I can't think of anything outside Rabblemaster, Siege-Gang Commander and that flipping werewolf-dude who pumps your other dudes. Since those still don't quite seem to get the job done, I started playing two Jitte in SB to deal with small creature decks and to make your army of 1/x's kill faster. Historically Koth has been the most aggressive card in the deck. If solid beaters exist, by all means let me know. It's one of the missing pieces from the deck to me. Siege-Gang Commander is very nice but 5 mana is rough. Could it just be that the new, cheaper Nalaar-family is the better board clogger/shooter here?Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
If you have turn 1 moon effect that's great but if not they have basics to fetch for, drs, and abrupt decay. Moon doesn't always beat them. They can still just make a bunch of goyfs and kill you sometimes if you don't represent a fast clock. Also what creatures are you thinking about? I can't think of any others worthwhile other than perhaps mom and dadQuote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
This list recently Top 8'ed a 99-person tournament.
For reference:
// NAME : Painter
// CREATOR : Claus Nielsen
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [C14] Great Furnace
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
5 [UNH] Mountain
1 [TSP] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
2 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [C14] Goblin Welder
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [9E] Blood Moon
3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
4 [5E] Pyroblast
4 [TSP] Sudden Shock
SB: 2 [SOM] Koth of the Hammer
SB: 1 [M12] Manic Vandal
SB: 2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 3 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [C14] Tormod's Crypt
Seems fairly straight-forward, except for the four (4) main-deck Sudden Shocks. I am on board with this line of thinking that it's supposed to be more of an unanswerable control card to ensure troublesome creatures are wiped off the board as opposed to just a burn spell (which it can be and technically is). The five Moon effects in the 75 seem low for a mono-red build, but serviceable none the less.
Is anybody keeping up with the commander spoilers? There's a magus for wheel of fortune. Not sure if we'd want it or not anyway but they made it a 3/3 so we wouldn't be able to tutor for it. I'm so sad.
I'd love for a reload your hand card. I tried Reforge the Soul since I run SDT in Painter but the card felt slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
I would keep it asymmetric if you can. Cards that reload an opponent's hand can be equally as bad for you with less filtering options.
Well it depends on what you want out of your aggressive creature, if you want someone to clog the board that's a bit different then aggression IMO. Over the course of this decks history there have been plenty of other aggressive creatures that have seen play (Figure of Destiny, Kargan Dragonlord), but mostly the want for a purely aggressive creature had died down. Heck I think one could make the case of Scab-Clan Berserker being one of the better aggressive mode creatures we could run. Rabblemaster is just a bit dodgy based on the negative interaction with Welder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
Mom and Dad is a good one two, but I'm not sure I'd call them pure aggro sauce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
DRS is one of the reasons why we were running main deck lightning bolt two years ago. Abrupt Decay isn't all that worrysome, if they are holding mana open to float for Abrupt Decay that's a win for you and a pretty bad speed bump for them. Goyfs are petty weak against Ensnaring Bridge. IDK my experience with Shardless BUG is that we are definitely favored.
Hi, Trying Painter again with the DTT ban, and I dont have the energy to play my A game with esper control for a long day this weekend at Seattle. My sideboard looks out of date, and there are some things i never figured out. I need some sideboard help here, and not sure if they are still valid or what decks to bring it in.
-assemble the legion (i believe its against miracles. any other decks?)
-koth (when am i bringing this in 100% of the time)
-are most ppl playing COP:red against burn? is it likely to run against burn at GP seattle. im thinking of dropping it.
-are we playign rest in peace (tutorable) against reanimator and goyf decks?
-maniac vandal or viashino heretic?
-also how many people are running ensnaring bridge in sb sv the mainboard.
-also how do you side against the mirror?
also is anyone playing chandra, pyromaster? i feel like return to ravnica electrickery's is very viable. feels like it just can do so much vs SO many legacy decks. i mean dark confidant/ flickersip/revoker/motherofrunes/ goblin warrans/ young pyro/ unflipped delver/ some other goblins / the list goes on.
Thanks!
Read through the last 10 pages or so bro, and painter is no step down from a control deck. You're setting yourself up for disappointment.