[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

Had some tough games at mkm Prague going 5-3.
I don't remember the exact order but I won against:
Infect 2:0
Canadian 2:0
Miracles 2:1
Miracles 2:0
DnT 2:1

and lost to:
0:2 Aggro Loam
0:2 Team America
1:2 Shardless Bug

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Hey everyone!

I'm new to ANT, played it at first time last saturday on a local 5 rounds tournment(doing 2-3). I previoulsy played Dredge, Blade and Omnitell, and sice the Dig ban i'm really into trying something new.

Your results seems very impressive to me, once i lost to Miracles(1-2) and Death And Taxes(0-2). I also lost to MUD.
Can you give me some tips on those match ups? Ad Nauseum seems very good against Miracles, but i'm not quite sure about its effectiviness against DnT. Is it possible for ANT to win over a Thalia in G1?

Thanks!

So the ANT list that Top 8'd the MKM series ran a Desolation Twin in the main. http://www.magiccardmarket.eu/MKMSer...&idt=3&idev=20

I'm very confused...

I can't imagine storming to ten and then casting this thing. What's the point?
Is it just there to put something in off Show and Tell??

Or is this a typo on his decklist?

EDIT: ya, it's a typo. Meant to be Dark Petition.

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Originally Posted by VanHendrix

Hey everyone!

I'm new to ANT, played it at first time last saturday on a local 5 rounds tournment(doing 2-3). I previoulsy played Dredge, Blade and Omnitell, and sice the Dig ban i'm really into trying something new.

Your results seems very impressive to me, once i lost to Miracles(1-2) and Death And Taxes(0-2). I also lost to MUD.
Can you give me some tips on those match ups? Ad Nauseum seems very good against Miracles, but i'm not quite sure about its effectiviness against DnT. Is it possible for ANT to win over a Thalia in G1?

Thanks!

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Welcome!
Well, they are not that impressive to be honest but I can try to recall the Miracles matches and the DnT one for you.
Against the first Miracles dude:
I played Duress on my second turn being on the play because I suspect him being on Miracles in order to popentially grab CB: he has two in hand. I discard one and make Petal> 2nd Duress for the 2nd CB. (my first land was Volcanic)
I then go for Ponder into Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam, he responds with Brainstorm and says: ok > win. In the second match, he goes for Clique beatdown with Snapcaster. I went for Extirpate on Flusterstorm but failed to create enough storm to kill him in time. I think he was on 16 and I had Tendrils for 12 ready. The third game was rather quick as I brainstormed into the win on my third turn. CT > he responds with BS > "Force of Will" > he reveals the classic nothing and I have the easy PiF-loop.
Against the other Miracles dude: I storm on my second turn without protection for Ad Nauseam, he flips with Top but luckily it isn't FoW > win. The second game is hard because he has like 2 Flusterstorm, 2 FoW, 2 Snappies, 1 RiP and Mentor in hand on turn 3/4 but I have more lands and a Top. I try to sculp a good hand and decay his Mentor in order to buy time. At some point, I can discard some cards and trade a Flusterstorm with Ad Nauseam. I think he goes for Extraction on CT down to 14 life and then I have exactly Tendrils for 14 with 0 mana left via some Rituals, 2x Duress and Infernal.
I bring in: 3 Decay, 2 Grip, 1 Extirpate, 1 Top, 2 Xantids and board some configuration of discard spells, Preordains, Petals, one Cabal, and LEDs out.
Against the DnT dude:
Basically, I goldfish him on turn 3 suspecting he is on NicFit (we played the day before and he played the Fit). I bring in: 3 DoN and 2 Chains and board out 3 Duress, 1 PiF and I think it was 1 Preordain. He wins the match with 2 Revoker which survive my DoN, Canonist and some other dudes. I have a solid hand in game 3 and go for the kill on turn 3 I think (pretty safe Ad Nauseam again) with him having no hatebear.

Against Thalia in game one: Play your LED and Petals out, hope for a big graveyard and the you can certainly win against Thalia. Cabal Ritual is the mvp here. Nonetheless, it's not that easy as it sounds.

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Originally Posted by BeardTron

So the ANT list that Top 8'd the MKM series ran a Desolation Twin in the main. http://www.magiccardmarket.eu/MKMSer...&idt=3&idev=20

I'm very confused...

I can't imagine storming to ten and then casting this thing. What's the point?
Is it just there to put something in off Show and Tell??

Or is this a typo on his decklist?

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Well, how can one really think for a second that it could be Desolation Twin? C'mon.
It's Dark Petition. Not that difficult to guess, right?

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Originally Posted by BeardTron

So the ANT list that Top 8'd the MKM series ran a Desolation Twin in the main. http://www.magiccardmarket.eu/MKMSer...&idt=3&idev=20

I'm very confused...

I can't imagine storming to ten and then casting this thing. What's the point?
Is it just there to put something in off Show and Tell??

Or is this a typo on his decklist?

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It was indeed Dark Petition.

Had a really fortunate tourney after a rather disappointing Trial the day before.

Rd.1 Imperial Painter 2:1

Rd.2 Stoneblade 2:0

Rd.3 Miracles 0:2

Rd.4 Deathblade 2:0

Rd.5 Shardless BUG 2:1

Rd.6 Redanimator 2:0

Rd.7 Deathblade 2:0

Rd.8 Aggro Loam 2:1

Quarterfinal Mentormiracles 2:1

My first bigger tourney, was a hell of a blast all weekend long :)

@raid

When were you boarding in Ad Nauseam?

Any changes you'd make to the 75?

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Originally Posted by BeardTron

@raid

When were you boarding in Ad Nauseam?

Any changes you'd make to the 75?

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Usually only against fast combo and decks with a rather slow clock and good graveyardhate. I made the sideboard under the impressions of the trial were i didnt see that much Sneak and Show but quiet a lot hatebears, so depending on the expected meta you have to think about making room for xantid swarms again.

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Originally Posted by raid

It was indeed Dark Petition.

Had a really fortunate tourney after a rather disappointing Trial the day before.

Rd.1 Imperial Painter 2:1

Rd.2 Stoneblade 2:0

Rd.3 Miracles 0:2

Rd.4 Deathblade 2:0

Rd.5 Shardless BUG 2:1

Rd.6 Redanimator 2:0

Rd.7 Deathblade 2:0

Rd.8 Aggro Loam 2:1

Quarterfinal Mentormiracles 2:1

My first bigger tourney, was a hell of a blast all weekend long :)

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Oh, you were Raid? I had no idea, I guess we met on sunday waiting for the legacy sideevent... Congrats on the result!

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

Oh, you were Raid? I had no idea, I guess we met on sunday waiting for the legacy sideevent... Congrats on the result!

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Haha. I wanted to write some similar.
Raid, I was the other storm guy talking to you and your friend Boris in between rounds.

In facebook Kai poster this link some days ago. And i have a question. Please somebody explain me why there are 4 preordains in Grinding Station(second place) and in any other storm build there are 4 ponders?

http://www.bigmagic.net/bmo05/legacy/03.html

I can't speak for Kai but Ponder is generally more useful in ANT because we are trying to find something specific, the key card so we can start the combo. Ponder allows us to see four cards deep. Grinding Station has a lot more business cards, and cares more about trying to improve the quality of our draws. Preordain also goes well with Brainstorm because we can put two junks away with Brainstorm, cast Preordain to put them on the bottom of our library, and cantrip.

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Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper

In facebook Kai poster this link some days ago. And i have a question. Please somebody explain me why there are 4 preordains in Grinding Station(second place) and in any other storm build there are 4 ponders?

http://www.bigmagic.net/bmo05/legacy/03.html

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because he/the designer of the deck thinks it's better... which isn't (to be respectful it isn't most of the time)... this all goes in a vein of T1 ponder is not a good play and patient style of play while valid argument, unless you're a briliant mathematician (certainly scenarios and small % advantages can pop up) , the lower value of fetchlands, lower digging power and combo associations make it strictly worse as a deck building approach imo

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Originally Posted by L10

I can't speak for Kai but Ponder is generally more useful in ANT because we are trying to find something specific, the key card so we can start the combo. Ponder allows us to see four cards deep. Grinding Station has a lot more business cards, and cares more about trying to improve the quality of our draws. Preordain also goes well with Brainstorm because we can put two junks away with Brainstorm, cast Preordain to put them on the bottom of our library, and cantrip.

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the last sentence totaly invalidates what you wrote

Yeah, I can see that. Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper

http://www.bigmagic.net/bmo05/legacy/03.html

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Did anyone else use Google Translate on the page? "Full Force from the Nest Hole" rates pretty high in my book.

Hello! New poster and learning ANT player here. Can anyone help me understand why people run an extra copy of tendrils in the board? Thanks. : )

Preordain is better than Ponder in situations where you draw additional cards afterwars, can't shuffle and are not looking just for one specific card. That sounds more narrow than it actually is. It means Preordain is a better turn one play most of the time, because a turn one Ponder is really only good if you are looking for exactly one card. (There are, in fact, scenarios where Preordain has better digging power if followed by additional draws, but these are very, very narrow.) If you are looking just for card quality/volume of spells that can be cast, for example when you are building up a natural Storm kill, Preordain is better by virtue of allowing you to ditch useless cards (additional 2+ CMC spells, uncastable cantrips, useless lands, you get the drift).

I originally played Preordain over Ponder way back in 2011 when there was a lot of Canadian Threshold, because Preordain just plays infinitely better against Stifle - Ponder quickly becomes just "Shuffle your library. Draw a card." against these. The amount of Threshold has gone done quite a bit, so Ponder was played over Preordain again until very recently. With Dig Through Time in the format, we were forced to play much more aggressively, so the amount of cantrips that were cast on the first turn of the game has gone up dramatically. I'm currently still playing Preordain over Ponder because the metagame hasn't panned out quite yet. These days, it mostly depends on the amount of Miracles that is being played and also how these lists end up looking in regards to relevant cards after sideboarding. If they don't have much, a minimally worse game one might be acceptable.

@Sloshthedark and CabalTherapy

Thx, yeah wasnt really aware that so many the source players would be there...

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

Did anyone else use Google Translate on the page? "Full Force from the Nest Hole" rates pretty high in my book.

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That and "Month of Large Magician". Might not be English As She Is Spoke, but the whole page is pretty fantastic.

And for any CinemaSnob fans, I find "Night of Horror" to be a truly glorious transliteration of Dread of Night.

I thought I was being clever by calling Volcanic Island "BLOOD OCEAN"...

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Originally Posted by Entreat_the_Beedrills

Hello! New poster and learning ANT player here. Can anyone help me understand why people run an extra copy of tendrils in the board? Thanks. : )

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I'm also pretty new to the deck, but from what I gather it's so that, against counter-heavy, slow decks like Miracles, we can afford to increase our threat density and storm for, say, twelve life and wait to storm again for the rest because there's not really much of a clock on us. Also, we've got additional outs against counterspells.

I'm kicking around the idea of boarding a second Tendrils, but I feel like Empty the Warrens might be a better call because it can help us push through against fast decks and slow ones. Goblins on the board can deal damage every turn, but Tendrils can only drain once (not counting flashback).

@Jonathan Alexander, correct me if i wrong. I read you and have a strange feeling like top is the best cantrip.

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Originally Posted by raid

It was indeed Dark Petition.

Had a really fortunate tourney after a rather disappointing Trial the day before.

Rd.1 Imperial Painter 2:1

Rd.2 Stoneblade 2:0

Rd.3 Miracles 0:2

Rd.4 Deathblade 2:0

Rd.5 Shardless BUG 2:1

Rd.6 Redanimator 2:0

Rd.7 Deathblade 2:0

Rd.8 Aggro Loam 2:1

Quarterfinal Mentormiracles 2:1

My first bigger tourney, was a hell of a blast all weekend long :)

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First, Congratz to your finish, watched your oncamera match against Loam and was pretty excited when I read that you smashed MentorBlabla in the quarterfinals.

Now my question: You played Grim and Petition both as 1-offs in your maindeck. A decision I am still unsure about. Did one of the two cards overperformed compared to the other. In which situations did they shine, in which not?

Greetinx.

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Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper

@Jonathan Alexander, correct me if i wrong. I read you and have a strange feeling like top is the best cantrip.

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Top is very powerful, but it's also very slow, which is the exact opposite of Preordain. I used to think Top was good against the discard decks, but I have come to the conclusion that the 3 Empty plan is better against those that also have countermagic (Grixis, Team America). They also tend to have Null Rod, which is already quite strong against us; I don't like playing into that.
I don't like it against Canadian because I don't want to play spells outside of my combo turn, but it's very good against Miracles. I also don't like it much in the combo mirrors; I don't think it does enough there without Flusterstorms.
That being said, Flusterstorm has mostly replaced Spell Pierce (took only four years...) so Top is much more likely to resolve when you cast it against the blue decks.
If you expect a lot of Miracles, I think it's reasonable to have some copies in your 75, but that's currently the only matchup where I think Top is actually better than Preordain.

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Originally Posted by DarkJester

First, Congratz to your finish, watched your oncamera match against Loam and was pretty excited when I read that you smashed MentorBlabla in the quarterfinals.

Now my question: You played Grim and Petition both as 1-offs in your maindeck. A decision I am still unsure about. Did one of the two cards overperformed compared to the other. In which situations did they shine, in which not?

Greetinx.

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Thx, yes i can understand if someone finds that odd and it can be discussed which tutor is better. In the tourney itself i actually had a situation, where Dark Petition wouldnt have done it, because of the cmc5, but Grim did get me the win. Overall i guees its a question of your boardingplans and which kind of disruption you´re expecting.

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Originally Posted by raid

Thx, yes i can understand if someone finds that odd and it can be discussed which tutor is better. In the tourney itself i actually had a situation, where Dark Petition wouldnt have done it, because of the cmc5, but Grim did get me the win. Overall i guees its a question of your boardingplans and which kind of disruption you´re expecting.

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As a new player, I'm interested: what was the situation in which the Tutor was better than the Petition? I've seen a couple of situations in which comboing with more than one LED and few/no rituals necessitated the use of a ≤3cmc spell, but those have been rare. Not to say it can't be a real thing, but I'm wondering how much this has come up for other players experimenting with both Grim Tutor and Dark Petition.

I mentioned before that I think Dark is better with AdN, but I'm curious as to what you think here, as well. I notice the list has AdN in the sideboard.

Also, when you mention sideboarding, what would be your plan if you were only running Dark Petition?

Thanks in advance for the reports/advice/feedback!

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

As a new player, I'm interested: what was the situation in which the Tutor was better than the Petition? I've seen a couple of situations in which comboing with more than one LED and few/no rituals necessitated the use of a ≤3cmc spell, but those have been rare. Not to say it can't be a real thing, but I'm wondering how much this has come up for other players experimenting with both Grim Tutor and Dark Petition.

I mentioned before that I think Dark is better with AdN, but I'm curious as to what you think here, as well. I notice the list has AdN in the sideboard.

Also, when you mention sideboarding, what would be your plan if you were only running Dark Petition?

Thanks in advance for the reports/advice/feedback!

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Grim Tutor is better than Dark Petition if you need to find a bounce spell or discard spell to ensure the combo. It can actually be cast off three lands. If you're in the process of comboing, Dark Petition is almost always better.

Jonathan Alexander, am i right that it is you?http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18407&iddeck=139364
Can you explain chrome mox in sb?
In what MU you sb EtW?
Why no flusterstorms? Because no combo? Is it good in control meta?

Regards
Oleg

Been testing with this sideboard has been doing well. Im curious what do you guys think?

1x Massacre
2x Dread of Night
2x Flusterstorm
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Bayou
1x Empty the Warrens
2x Chain of Vapor
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Carpet of Flowers

Just wanted to get more player insight, and if I'm missing somthing. Thanks!

Edit: Currenty running a 1x Pif and 1x AN main

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Originally Posted by rw1347

1x Massacre
2x Dread of Night
2x Flusterstorm
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Bayou
1x Empty the Warrens
2x Chain of Vapor
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Carpet of Flowers

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Looks pretty solid to me (an amateur), but I've got a couple of questions.

Are you running a Tropical Island in the main? I ask because I'm looking to acquire the duals (I hate to proxy when other people throw down for the actual cards) and I'm not sure whether it'd be better to run Trop or Bayou. More of my fetches find Trop, but I'm wondering how big a deal that really is (in part because of monetary concerns).

Have you found Swarm to do as much good as, say, additional copies of Empty? I goldfished the 3x Empty plan a bit and found the increased consistency to be really cool. I'm thinking of running two in the side and one in the main, or maybe two in the side and an AdN main.

Has 2x Dread been enough for you in playtesting?

Have you tried Hurkyl's Recall before? I've not had to deal with MUD, but I've seen some pretty idiot-proof affinity decks that might really put the hurt on me in the meta, seeing as I'm new to the deck and generally bad at Magic.

What's the appeal of Flusterstorm? It's a really, really good card, but a) does it really help you win a counterwar, and b) would more copies of anti-Gaddock/Thalia/Thorn/3sphere cards be better?

Not trying to dress down your whole plan; I'm genuinely interested in feedback because I don't get to playtest very often.

The above sideboard looks pretty standard, I'd say it's probably a good point to start and fine-tune once you got in some more testing.

The Tropical vs Bayou debate is nowadays mostly resolved due to the fact that most people opt to run one copy of both. It's still possible to run only one of them, but you have to be really careful with when to fetch it up and it may be too optimistic in Wasteland heavy metas. Traditionally, Tropical was run as the only green source, mainly because ANT used to run more cantrips than nowadays (I know some people still like playing Preordains nowadays, but before Grinding Station and DP was a thing almost everyone ran 2-3 Preordains). Running Bayou as your only green source is something more commonly seen in TES, which is a faster paced deck which always wants combo mana after dropping Xantids turn 1 and which basically always has less than 8 cantrips in the deck after boarding anyway. If money is a concern, you can get away playing only a Bayou as your green source, just be very careful with your fetching then. I'm sure this is still a better plan than not having AD available at all. Though outside of TES, it may not be the most optimal choice to have only the Bayou.

Xantids are still good against the decks they were always good against, but right now it seems that those decks are a little less common than they used to be (Omnitell, Reanimator, Merfolk, etc). I think running just two of them is still a good hedge, that's what I'm doing as well at the moment, but if those decks are even less common in your local meta and if you're having trouble with hate permanents, cutting them entirely is an option. Boarding in EtW is great in certain matchups, though I'm personally not sold on a full 3 copies yet, because they do tend to get really clunky at times and because they make your AN worse, which is usually good against a lot of the decks that multiple EtWs are also good against (Miracles, DnT, etc).

I don't run Dread at the moment, because my local DnT players have Gaddocks and Canonists and I lose too often even when I get one Dread in play. Getting two in play consistently is very unlikely, even if you play the full four, so there's that.

Hurkyl is fine if MUD (or Affinity) is big in your meta, otherwise it's often just a less efficient Chain of Vapor or Abrupt Decay.

Flusterstorm is there for two main things: to counter opposing Flusterstorms and to be a potential game breaker in the mirror match and in some other combo matchups. It does obviously help you win the counter war against normal 1-for-1 counters as well. How much you want them and how much you'd rather have more answers to hatebears once again depends on your meta.


As you were mentioning hatebears I'd just like to add Eidolon to that list, because that thing is really hard to beat and you'll face it game 1 already. Yesterday in my LGS I got crushed within 10 minutes by Burn in round 1, as he had a turn 2 Eidolon on the play in G1 and a Mindbreak trap for my unprotected T2 win in G2 (had to go for it, he had Eidolon as well). I still won the remaining rounds and got 3rd overall, but I'll probably up my Chain of Vapor count for next month, because AD is too inefficient against Burn.

2 Dreads feels like too little to me. I'd pack 3 at the least.

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Originally Posted by Izor

The above sideboard looks pretty standard, I'd say it's probably a good point to start and fine-tune once you got in some more testing.

The Tropical vs Bayou debate is nowadays mostly resolved due to the fact that most people opt to run one copy of both. It's still possible to run only one of them, but you have to be really careful with when to fetch it up and it may be too optimistic in Wasteland heavy metas....Xantids are still good against the decks they were always good against, but right now it seems that those decks are a little less common than they used to be (Omnitell, Reanimator, Merfolk, etc). I think running just two of them is still a good hedge, that's what I'm doing as well at the moment, but if those decks are even less common in your local meta and if you're having trouble with hate permanents, cutting them entirely is an option. Boarding in EtW is great in certain matchups, though I'm personally not sold on a full 3 copies yet, because they do tend to get really clunky at times and because they make your AN worse, which is usually good against a lot of the decks that multiple EtWs are also good against (Miracles, DnT, etc)....I don't run Dread at the moment, because my local DnT players have Gaddocks and Canonists and I lose too often even when I get one Dread in play. Getting two in play consistently is very unlikely, even if you play the full four, so there's that....Flusterstorm is there for two main things: to counter opposing Flusterstorms and to be a potential game breaker in the mirror match and in some other combo matchups. It does obviously help you win the counter war against normal 1-for-1 counters as well. How much you want them and how much you'd rather have more answers to hatebears once again depends on your meta.


As you were mentioning hatebears I'd just like to add Eidolon to that list, because that thing is really hard to beat and you'll face it game 1 already. Yesterday in my LGS I got crushed within 10 minutes by Burn in round 1, as he had a turn 2 Eidolon on the play in G1 and a Mindbreak trap for my unprotected T2 win in G2 (had to go for it, he had Eidolon as well). I still won the remaining rounds and got 3rd overall, but I'll probably up my Chain of Vapor count for next month, because AD is too inefficient against Burn.

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Thanks a lot for the explanation! It's really helpful.

Do you think Bayou is a better choice at this juncture (ten cantrips main), or Trop? My fetches are almost all U/x fetches.

I'm still unsure of the best strategy for dealing with bears. My plan vs. Mav and D&T was to side in S-Shock, Dread and Massacre, but the Eidolon looks like just as big a problem. Have you been using AD and Chain to handle those, or something else? I'm thinking about Pyroclasm and Massacre for now.

A third question regards Xantid and Empty. It feels to me like they'd both be good against the same types of decks (countermagic and few creatures). My plan was just to cut two Petitions and replace them with Empties, but I'm wondering whether that's a good plan or a terrible one. I figured that would synergize a bit better with AdN and wouldn't clog the deck with too many wincons. Does that sound reasonable, or am I missing something crucial? I've been more inclined to switch out high-costed stuff than low-costed stuff for non-removal-based sideboard material, but maybe that's because I haven't had the chance to test very much and/or because I'm bad to the bone (at Magic). One last thing: I don't think Empty is good against D&T. I've gotten Battered pretty hard by that deck before, and I feel like it's walking right into a game loss if they play a Stoneforge.

Again, your feedback is much appreciated! If I'm noobing hard, just say so.

@Ronald
If you can only run one green dual I'd probably run something like this:

4 Delta
3 Tarn
1 Catacombs
2 Sea
1 Volc
1 Badlands
1 Trop
1 Island
1 Swamp

Flusterstorm is mainly for combo (including Elves on the play for me), not terrible against Hymn decks either. I don't like it versus a non-combo deck with counters and no discard to win a 'counter war'.

I do like Empty vs DnT, therapies definately help with that plan.

I board chains and decays versus Eidolon, I find they usually have Pillar postboard and no MB traps.

Regarding the posted sideboard:
I ran a similar MD (1 AdN, 1 PiF, 1 DP, 1 SDT, 2 Pre) & SB (-2 DoN, -1 Bayou, +1 Massacre, +1 KGrip, +1 Hurkyl's I believe) in Prague . I was not impressed by swarm due to a lack of Griselbrands, but I don't think I'll cut them yet. I don't think DoN are needed right now and prefer Massacre due to the versatility. Boarding lands isn't great but it's an option I guess (What's the 15th land main; 2nd red dual, 2nd Island, 3rd Sea or 9th fetch? Or just 14?). Looks fine overall though, perhaps switch the Massacre for another DoN, if you want those at all, since they're better in multiples. And it obviously depends on your local meta.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Thanks a lot for the explanation! It's really helpful.

Do you think Bayou is a better choice at this juncture (ten cantrips main), or Trop? My fetches are almost all U/x fetches.

I'm still unsure of the best strategy for dealing with bears. My plan vs. Mav and D&T was to side in S-Shock, Dread and Massacre, but the Eidolon looks like just as big a problem. Have you been using AD and Chain to handle those, or something else? I'm thinking about Pyroclasm and Massacre for now.

A third question regards Xantid and Empty. It feels to me like they'd both be good against the same types of decks (countermagic and few creatures). My plan was just to cut two Petitions and replace them with Empties, but I'm wondering whether that's a good plan or a terrible one. I figured that would synergize a bit better with AdN and wouldn't clog the deck with too many wincons. Does that sound reasonable, or am I missing something crucial? I've been more inclined to switch out high-costed stuff than low-costed stuff for non-removal-based sideboard material, but maybe that's because I haven't had the chance to test very much and/or because I'm bad to the bone (at Magic). One last thing: I don't think Empty is good against D&T. I've gotten Battered pretty hard by that deck before, and I feel like it's walking right into a game loss if they play a Stoneforge.

Again, your feedback is much appreciated! If I'm noobing hard, just say so.

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The previous post already sums things up nicely. It does depend on the fetches you have available, but when running only one green source in a 10 U-cantrip build I agree that a mana base with Tropical seems better. If money is the concern, nowadays Trop doesn't even cost much more than Bayou anyway, and if you run the mana base suggested by Jamie, you're saving some money by running Badlands over something like the second green source or a second Volcanic or whatever.

Eidolon is very annoying, but the only efficient way of dealing with it is Chain of Vapor. If you have only a couple of those (which most people do), you'll probably have to complement them with some Decays in order to draw an out consistently. You'll usually have three different types of cards in your sideboard to deal with hatebears in general: Decays, Chains and specific anti-white stuff like Dread or Massacre. The Chains are catch-alls that you can always board to complement your more powerful anti hate post-board in order to reach a critical mass. For example, against Burn you board AD plus Chains (around 4-5 total). Against DnT you can board Dread/Massacre plus Chains. Unfortunately, against Gaddock Teeg decks you're mostly forced to board AD plus Chain as well, because Teeg dodges so many of the anti-white cards. Be careful against heavy mana denial decks, because AD does get worse against those due to your reliance on very few green sources. Pyroclasm is rare nowadays, but it's still a very strong card against both Eidolon decks and Gaddock Teeg and it's definitely not wrong to run a copy or two if you expect to see those a lot. Remember that it has its problems against DnT, though, because Mother of Runes can save their hate bears from it.

You're right about Xantid, which is generally good in matchups against blue decks that have counters, but no creature removal. These are most notably Merfolk and Griselbrand decks (Show and Tell, Reanimator). Merfolk can give you trouble nowadays, because they tend to run Chalice, and Griselbrand decks are a little less common than they used to, which is why Xantid isn't as strog as it used to be. It's still very good if you do happen to play against Griselbrand, though. EtW is more suited for any matchup where you have to win before your opponent does something that locks you out of the game, like dropping a million hatebears (DnT), assembling Countertop (Miracles) or drop Chalices and Spheres (MUD), and it's particularly good if you like to increase your odds to naturally play fast mana into a Storm spell in order to get through counter spells.

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Originally Posted by Izor

The previous post already sums things up nicely. It does depend on the fetches you have available, but when running only one green source in a 10 U-cantrip build I agree that a mana base with Tropical seems better. If money is the concern, nowadays Trop doesn't even cost much more than Bayou anyway, and if you run the mana base suggested by Jamie, you're saving some money by running Badlands over something like the second green source or a second Volcanic or whatever.

Eidolon is very annoying, but the only efficient way of dealing with it is Chain of Vapor. If you have only a couple of those (which most people do), you'll probably have to complement them with some Decays in order to draw an out consistently. You'll usually have three different types of cards in your sideboard to deal with hatebears in general: Decays, Chains and specific anti-white stuff like Dread or Massacre. The Chains are catch-alls that you can always board to complement your more powerful anti hate post-board in order to reach a critical mass. For example, against Burn you board AD plus Chains (around 4-5 total). Against DnT you can board Dread/Massacre plus Chains. Unfortunately, against Gaddock Teeg decks you're mostly forced to board AD plus Chain as well, because Teeg dodges so many of the anti-white cards. Be careful against heavy mana denial decks, because AD does get worse against those due to your reliance on very few green sources. Pyroclasm is rare nowadays, but it's still a very strong card against both Eidolon decks and Gaddock Teeg and it's definitely not wrong to run a copy or two if you expect to see those a lot. Remember that it has its problems against DnT, though, because Mother of Runes can save their hate bears from it.

You're right about Xantid, which is generally good in matchups against blue decks that have counters, but no creature removal. These are most notably Merfolk and Griselbrand decks (Show and Tell, Reanimator). Merfolk can give you trouble nowadays, because they tend to run Chalice, and Griselbrand decks are a little less common than they used to, which is why Xantid isn't as strog as it used to be. It's still very good if you do happen to play against Griselbrand, though. EtW is more suited for any matchup where you have to win before your opponent does something that locks you out of the game, like dropping a million hatebears (DnT), assembling Countertop (Miracles) or drop Chalices and Spheres (MUD), and it's particularly good if you like to increase your odds to naturally play fast mana into a Storm spell in order to get through counter spells.

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Good post, though I'd like to add that one of empty's best applications is vs delver decks, since they tend to run very few (if any) answers to it

ARGH; just wrote a report for today's tourney and it disappeared into the aether. In short, I went 1-2. Low attendance, three rounds.

Round 1: D&T (0-1)
G1: I got screwed by Thalia. I may have had a turn-1 win, but I wasn't sure, so I waited a turn. Bad idea.
G2: Dread of Night saved the day. Followed it up with Massacre and a big Tendrils.
G3: Thalia and Canonist put on the hurt too quickly, and I probably would've had the combo if he hadn't shut me down.
Hatebears are a problem. Thinking I should've sided in 3 Empties, but live and learn. Therapy was really sub-par here (surprise, surprise! I'm new at this).

Round 2: Goblins (1-1)
G1: Got swarmed by a Piledriver and pals.
G2: Managed to Empty the Warrens for 18 goblins, and he couldn't race it.
G3: Turn one Empty for 14 goblins. He couldn't keep up.
This was a pretty funny match, primarily because beating Goblins using goblins in a non-Goblins deck is pretty silly.

Round 3: Maverick (1-2)
G1: Thalia and Gaddock Teeg screwed me. I think I conceded when he landed Gaddock because there wasn't anything I could do. I didn't have any mainboard answers.
G2: Got stuck on zero lands. Wasteland is a really good card. I managed to land a Dread of Night and find a second one off a Ponder, but he Decayed the first one before I could land the second. Not much else to tell; he just charged and I couldn't cast anything. N.B.: he hadn't played a Plains, so Massacre would've been worthless.
Hideous, hideous matchup. I feel like the only answer to Mav is either to board in as many copies of Empty as we can fit into the sideboard, and that still wouldn't have saved me without removal, which just didn't turn up.

I'm going down to 2x Duress and adding a "Tropical Island" because I found Duress to be, by far, my least useful card. The guys I didn't play were running BUG(?) and 12-post, so maybe it would've benefited against them, but I'm not convinced it's anything but our worst card.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I'm going down to 2x Duress and adding a "Tropical Island" because I found Duress to be, by far, my least useful card. The guys I didn't play were running BUG(?) and 12-post, so maybe it would've benefited against them, but I'm not convinced it's anything but our worst card.

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Obviously Duress is superbad when the meta is 0% Force of Will/Combo. In most realities, however, those decks make up about 80% of the meta, and it's not too bad. Therapy is better, but it's probably also harder to play correctly for a new player.

If you're expecting to always face decks such as Maverick, DnT and Goblins I'd probably just run a fast version of TES.

An ANT list with 1 SDT, 1 Dark Petition, 1 Past in Flames (second copy), 1 Preordain as the flex slots took down the SCG Open this weekend.

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

An ANT list with 1 SDT, 1 Dark Petition, 1 Past in Flames (second copy), 1 Preordain as the flex slots took down the SCG Open this weekend.

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Well, he's 0-1 in the finals as of this post. Though infect is a pretty decent matchup so I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up winning.

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Originally Posted by Narcind

Well, he's 0-1 in the finals as of this post. Though infect is a pretty decent matchup so I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up winning.

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Ah, I assumed the match I watched was the finals. I clearly wasn't paying much attention. In any case, I wonder if we're dialing in on a stock list. Something that ANT hasn't really had for quite a while.

Doubt it. I mean, pretty much every list runs like the same 55 stock cards and then there's room for personal preferences, metagame calls and such.

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Originally Posted by JamieW89

Obviously Duress is superbad when the meta is 0% Force of Will/Combo. In most realities, however, those decks make up about 80% of the meta, and it's not too bad. Therapy is better, but it's probably also harder to play correctly for a new player.

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Yeah; I was surprised only one person appeared to be running Force today. A couple of the other guys are pretty steady Force players, too. I'm guessing the low turnout was the reason for the lack of others, and that the guys who showed felt like mixing it up.

To be honest, though, useful as Duress can be against instant-based control (and countertop/MUD/opposing discard), I found that even in matches against Delver/Mentor that I played two sessions ago, I'd have preferred a Therapy to a Duress nearly every time. I've been running a 4-3 split of Therapy to Duress. Sure, an extra piece of disruption is an extra piece of disruption, and my testing is pretty limited, but I'm most worried about land screw and speed versus Mav at this point because this is the second time in a row I've gotten shut out really quickly by Wasteland and the bears. Last time I played, I didn't do too well against the Delvers either, but they didn't have a one-card lock and I chalk up some of my performance to a lack of experience.

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Originally Posted by JamieW89

If you're expecting to always face decks such as Maverick, DnT and Goblins I'd probably just run a fast version of TES.

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That sounds like good advice, though again, I don't think that today's field was typical for my meta (or any other, for that matter). I like crash-testing complicated decks to try to learn how to play better, so I'm hoping to get my hands on some Burning Wishes once I've got my landbase un-proxied just for the sake of testing TES (and of running Belcher in its current incarnation! What can I say? I like to live dangerously). This may be a stupid question, but has anyone tried boarding in, e.g., 1x Empty, 4x Rite of Flame, 4x Burning Wish, and 2x Chrome Mox (leaving an additional Empty and, say, a Massacre and 2x Chain of Vapor in the side for Wishing) instead of the heavily anti-hate sideboard that seems to be favored? I'm running two red sources main already, and looking at TES's sideboard, it seems like it's geared toward winning the grindier games our deck is supposed to handle better.

For the time being I'm going to stick with the board I ran today for the most part, but I'm probably going to cut Hurkyl's Recall (no MUD players around here), main Trop as land #15 (instead of a third Duress), and replace the two board spaces with a third Empty and a second Chain of Vapor. I didn't get manascrewed on draws today (a marked improvement over last time), but the Leonin Arbiter and Wasteland choked me out twice with only 14 lands main, eight of which having been fetches.